r/12Monkeys

▲ 132 r/12Monkeys

I think 12 Monkeys might be one of the most coherent stories I've ever watched

I went into '12 Monkeys' expecting a good time-travel show.

By the final season, I realised I'd been watching something so much cooler. A story that understands that the best payoff isn't revealing that something you saw earlier was false. It's revealing that what you saw earlier was completely true, and you didn't yet understand what you were looking at.

That's a distinction I haven't appreciated enough in storytelling. A cheap twist says "Haha, we withheld information from you". A good twist says "You had the information, but interpreted it incorrectly".

12 Monkeys seems obsessed with something even better. You interpreted the information perfectly reasonably, because you hadn't yet lived through the events that would make another interpretation possible.

That's Jennifer summed up in a nutshell.

For most of the show, Jennifer appears to be the least reliable person in the room. By the end, she's clearly the most reliable person in the room operating with the most completely fucked evidence set imaginable.

Everyone else sees time locally.

Jennifer sometimes sees the shape.

So she'll react to a person according to something they haven't done yet, connect two things that appear unrelated, say something that sounds like nonsense because its context hasn't happened, or treat an apparently insignificant thing as enormously important. And the show doesn't eventually reveal that Jennifer wasn't crazy, or that she secretly knew everything. That would be boring. She has a perspective just like everyone else. It's just a perspective containing relationships that other people can't see yet.

That distinction is effectively the entire show. And once I noticed it with Jennifer, I started noticing it everywhere.

Deacon is probably my favourite example. There were things involving Deacon that I initially wrote off as writing convenience, but the trust I had in the writing allowed me to see what was really happening. At one point he misses Cassie and Cole at point blank range when apparently on Olivia's side. I remember just knowing they wouldn't pull this shit, and Deacon must be a double agent. Then suddenly his absence from certain visions, his behaviour, his relationships, tiny choices, things I'd mentally filed as 'eh, TV' started changing category.

That's the trick. The scene didn't change. I did.

12 Monkeys is ridiculously confident about doing this because it frequently doesn't draw attention to the setup when it happens. Something can sit there for seasons before the story gives you the relationship that makes you realise why it was there. That's what makes the show feel so insanely coherent. Not everything needs to be 'foreshadowing' in the conventional sense. Sometimes an earlier event is simply not yet complete without it's future. And that's so much more satisfying as a payoff.

The show also completely changed how I think about predicting stories. I correctly anticipated a surprising amount of the final season. And weirdly, that didn't make it less enjoyable. It made it more enjoyable. Because there is a difference between knowing what happens and understanding how the story gets there. Once a story is sufficiently coherent, prediction stops being "I reckon the writers will do X because that would be cool." It becomes: "Given everything these people have already done, everything this story has already committed itself to, and everything that must still be resolved, what futures are actually available?"

You start seeing the negative space. A character's absence becomes information. An oddly specific word becomes information. Someone behaving apparently inconsistently becomes information because you know the writers understand that character too well for you to comfortably dismiss it. Even pacing becomes information. And this creates this amazing relationship between viewer and writer where you can realise something before the reveal and instead of thinking damn, spoiled it for myself, you think OH FUCK, YOU'VE BEEN BUILDING THIS THE WHOLE TIME.

The pleasure isn't surprise. It's recognition. That's rarer. Cole is where I think the whole thing ultimately becomes beautiful

Without getting lost in every individual plot mechanic, James Cole is a man whose existence is constituted by the catastrophe he is trying to prevent.

That's an incredible problem for a protagonist. Because his mission isn't ultimately just 'save the world'. It's something much nastier. Create a world that never needed you to save it.

The plague gives us Cole. The ruined future gives us Cole. Jones gives us Cole. Cassie gives us Cole. Ramse gives us Cole. Every trip through time, every death, every mistake, every relationship creates the person capable of eventually reaching the point where he can say, effectively, "you need to go back and die when you were supposed to die, and I need to climb into that machine and be erased."

And then Ramse's response is: "Jesus."

Come the fuck on. 😂

That line hit me particularly hard because literally seconds before Ramse said it, my brain had independently wandered into thinking about the weird relationship between protagonists and the form of Jesus.

Not just "hero sacrifices himself." That's everywhere. Something more specific. A protagonist spends the entire story trying to actualise some future and eventually discovers that achieving it may require surrendering their own claim to exist at the centre of that future.

Cole isn't merely willing to die for the world. He's willing to create a world in which James Cole was never required in the first place. There's something extraordinarily beautiful about that. Which brings me to the title

I spent most of the series assuming I knew what the words Army of the 12 Monkeys meant. Why wouldn't I?

There's an Army. There are Twelve Monkeys. Find the people those words refer to.

Easy.

Except by the final season I found myself interrogating basically every word in the phrase.

What is the Army?

Who is actually fighting whom?

Who even counts as being on the same side when somebody can apparently betray you in order to help you?

What does "Twelve" identify?

What does "Monkeys" identify?

Is the phrase naming twelve people?

A faction?

A family?

A causal structure?

A role?

A complete set?

And I suddenly realised something hilarious about the word army. For most of the war, basically nobody knows who they're actually fighting. Jones thinks she's fighting one thing. Cole thinks he's fighting another. The Army believes something else. The Witness changes meaning. People who appear to be enemies become necessary allies. People can apparently join the enemy as part of fighting the enemy. Everyone keeps interfering with time to repair damage produced by people interfering with time. They're an army whose members don't completely know who belongs to the army or what the actual war is. In other words: monkeys.

Give a bunch of traumatised apes access to causality and tell them to fix history.

What could possibly go wrong?

And yet, viewed from far enough above, apparently chaotic actions begin forming a coherent shape. Which is basically Jennifer's entire existence. That's why Jennifer might secretly be the most important character in the show for me

Everybody else is trying to solve the puzzle while standing on one of the pieces. Jennifer occasionally seems capable of looking down. Not from nowhere. Not omnisciently. Just... less sequentially. That's why her apparent insanity becomes so interesting.

Imagine somebody responding rationally to evidence you haven't encountered yet. They would look insane. Imagine them knowing that the person standing in front of them matters because of the person that individual will become after events neither of you has experienced yet. They would look irrationally loyal. Imagine them recognising the significance of something whose causal relationship won't become apparent for thirty years. They'd sound like they're talking shit.

Then thirty years happens. And suddenly: Oh.

Jennifer wasn't necessarily giving you the wrong answer. You just didn't have the question yet. And that brings me to what I think 12 Monkeys does better than almost any complicated story I've watched.

It respects its past.

A lot of mystery-box television consumes its own setup. Something mysterious happens in season one because the writers need you to keep watching. Three years later they invent an explanation. Technically, the question has been answered. But you can feel that the past was merely raw material for the future. 12 Monkeys increasingly gives me the opposite sensation. The future seems to return value to the past. An episode you've already watched becomes better because of an episode that didn't exist yet from your perspective. A character you thought you understood becomes another character without anything about their earlier behaviour needing to be deleted. A line changes meaning. An absence becomes presence. A mistake becomes a decision. A coincidence becomes causality. An enemy becomes an ally without necessarily ever having stopped being the enemy. And that's the crucial thing: the earlier version isn't erased.

When I thought Jennifer was talking nonsense, she was talking nonsense relative to the information available to me. When I thought Deacon was behaving like Deacon, he was. When Cole misunderstands what he's fighting, his actions still make sense from the world available to him at that moment. Later information doesn't say "You idiot, you should have known." It says "Now look again."

That's what makes a rewatch exciting rather than merely informative. And I think that's the real test of an intricately plotted story

Does knowing the answer destroy it?

If yes, the mystery was doing most of the work. If knowing the answer makes the beginning better, then you've built something else. Because on a second viewing I'm not going to be asking "What's going to happen?" I'm going to be watching Deacon when I'm supposedly meant to be watching Cole. I'm going to listen differently when Jennifer says something apparently ridiculous. I'm going to notice who isn't present. I'm going to pay attention to the exact words people use for things they don't understand yet. I'm going to watch characters confidently model situations that I know exceed their information. And, most importantly, I'll know where all these people end up while watching versions of them who genuinely don't. That isn't the same story with the suspense removed. That's another story. And I think that's perhaps the highest compliment I can give 12 Monkeys:

A first viewing seems to be about people travelling through time trying to change events.

A second viewing might be about watching those same people unknowingly create the conditions through which the events you already know become possible.

Same scenes. Different causal universe.

I haven't quite finished yet, so for the love of God do not spoil the remaining episodes for me. 😂

But I've reached the point where I'm no longer primarily excited to discover whether my theories are right.

I'm excited to discover how I'm wrong about what I'm right about.

Because this show has repeatedly given me the same experience: I see something.

I construct the best explanation I can. The show gives me more information.

And suddenly I realise: Oh.

It was showing me the answer the whole fucking time.

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u/PracticeFlashy8695 — 2 days ago

So glad it's on Amazon Prime!

Started my rewatch and damn it's as good as I remember! Catching up to the watch party schedule but I'm just so excited because I actually can't remember everything that happens so it's a little like a rewatch! Hope everyone else is enjoying it too!

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u/CryptographerOk990 — 3 days ago

Finished the show for the first time

What a ride it has been - this show went straight to number two on the list of my favorite shows ever. And just as Dark will always be no. 1, I kind of doubt anything will be able to rob 12 Monkeys of its place up there ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

I loved the movie in the 90s, but I‘ve always read kind of mixed reviews for the series. It‘s not available for streaming where I live (or at least not on the streamers for which I have a subscription), so I hesitated to buy all the BluRays. Finally asked for them last Christmas and… why didn’t I just watch this years ago? It‘s amazing! It‘s exciting, it‘s funny, it‘s heart-breaking, it‘s mind-bending…

I‘m giving it my highest honor - I‘ll create all of the main characters in Sims and give them a nice, boring, happy, time-travel-free life (that still will have an end some day)

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u/Wusel1811 — 3 days ago

First time watching. A few episodes into s2

So not that I really expect a lot of people to interact with this post about a decade old show… but I just needed a place to vent about how much I genuinely hate the relationship between Cassandra and Decan. I’m currently watching episode 3 of season 2 and I’m getting more annoyed by the minute. Like to the point I’m debating just stopping watching the show entirely. What they had going on in season 1 with Cole and Cassie was great and I was looking forward to more of it. The changes they made to her so the second season is terrible. She’s just a total bitch now. And Decan is just as bad. Her time in 2044 was basically just spend learning how to be a shitbag of a person from Decan. Did the writing team actively try to upset the audience. Cause wtf?

I read somewhere on another post that the payoffs this season were worth it and to at least hang in until episode 8. But I’m not even having a good time watching this now. Can somebody give me any reason to believe that this is a temporary feeling and that things will actually get better? Or is this just what I can expect from the rest of this series? Cause if it isn’t gonna change, I think I might just call it quits and find something else to watch.

Sorry if this comes off as too negative. But I’m just so frustrated with how the second season is going.

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u/I_Prevail_96 — 4 days ago

Hot Take: Katarina Jones is giving me Kathryn Janeway vibes…

I started watching 12 Monkeys for the first time several weeks ago. I’m currently about four episodes into season 4. Jones is my favorite character but the actress reminds me so much of Janeway from ST Voyager. And they even have the same initials. Anyone else see it or am I the only one? (Also please no spoilers for the show!)

u/slip72479 — 4 days ago
▲ 122 r/12Monkeys

What did I just watch? I'm in awe, I'm in tears...I don't know how to process it all lol

I just finished this incredible series literally 5 minutes ago. Its instantly in the GOAT conversation of shows for me. I had never even heard of this show existing until like a couple months ago and I finally got around to watching it, and I'm just completely blown away.

Like, how is this a Syfy show? If I didn't know what network it was on I would've guessed HBO. The production was so great, acting great, effects great.....everything was just top notch. I'm a huge fan of the show Dark, but I think this is better, which I can't believe I'm saying! And the fact that this came about before Dark makes me question that maybe Dark just ripped off 12 Monkeys.

I don't know why I'm even making this post, other than to express how I'm feeling to someone (if anyone even sees this), because this show got me on all levels. It made me laugh, it made me cry, it made me think, it was thrilling, exciting, dramatic...it had everything.

Also, Reddit can be a cesspool, but shoutout to the many people in random TV subs recommending 12 Monkeys every time the question of "Give me an underrated show to watch" is asked. I finally decided that I'd seen that answer given enough times that I should give it a try....and I'm very glad I did. I'm now a big Terry Matalas fan....what a frickin' show!

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u/ctownwp22 — 5 days ago

Question about the time travel in S01E06 “The Red Forest”

First time watching the show, so I’d ask for no spoilers beyond S1E6.

In this episode, we see the outcome of Cassie dying, which causes Cole to go to an alternate future in 2043 where West VII has taken control of the time machine.

My question is: how does Cassie from 2015 even remember meeting Cole? In this new reality, she died before sending the audio message that ultimately led to him going back in time and meeting Cassie in the first place.

So, in my opinion, when Cole from the “West VII future” travels back in time, he should find a reality that was never affected by the “original” Cole (the one from the first five episodes) in the first place, since in this timeline he was never picked up by Jones.

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u/phfds — 5 days ago

You’re walking through a red forest…

From the new VisionQuest trailer, instantly reminded me of 12 Monkeys. I get it’s probably not a reference like that but they do share a showrunner (and some members of the cast) so idk one can hope. Still made me happy to see

u/jeddarchack — 6 days ago

Great Ending

The last season played as if it were written first. Great time travel execution. I have so much more to say but this show has me thinking a bazillion thoughts. Great show!

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u/CharbonPiscesChienne — 8 days ago

12 Monkeys S01E09 Tomorrow Discussion

Hi travelers. Today we discuss episode 9, “Tomorrow.” As usual, this post is tagged SPOILER so new witnesses of the show can be aware of it

What I Loved

First off, what an excellent continuation to the last episode. The stakes are sky high the entire time, especially around the Spearhead plot. The interactions between Jones and Foster are nothing short of astonishing. They feel like long-time friends sitting on opposite sides of a spectrum, one desperately looking back to the past while the other is desperately trying to move forward. I don’t know why it reminded me of the tension between Ramses and Moses in The Prince of Egypt. Excellent acting on both sides

Second, Jennifer going crazy as always. Not once in this entire show have I disliked watching her on screen

On my first rewatch, >!Cassie’s hair was one of the first things I noticed compared to the final season. Later in S04, she gets that white streak in her hair caused by a paradox. Seeing that exact white streak already present here is such a cool piece of foreshadowing. Aside from that, the way she says "you were erased" while looking at Cole, I always felt like a subtle hint that the writers had the ending planned out from this early on!<

Gotta admit too, Elena picking locks was pretty cool

Nitpicks

You would think security at Spearhead would be a bit more present. Not to mention the sudden sound of gunshots inside the mansion would at least alert half the people living there

Overall, this is one of my favorite episodes, mostly because it was the first time I caught a major piece of foreshadowing on my rewatch

Solid 9/10 for me

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u/SchattenJaggerD — 9 days ago

I have finally acquired an M5-10 (Kalavirus) vial from the show

Copying this from what I posted in the Facebook group.

After months of back and forth, Terry finally agreed to let go of what might be his last remaining M5-10 vial.

It arrived last week, and I just got a display box for it. I plan to add it to my wall display when I get a chance.

Terry said that all of the vials in his possession are hero props and were used in the show at some point, but the trouble is that the code numbers written on them are all the same. The only visible differences between vials are in the barcode and those differences are very subtle.

And depending on the angle and the lighting, the lines of the barcode can look different.

So, I've been able to rule out a few vials seen in the show, but I have not been able to find one that I am definitively certain is the one I now have.

For now, I'm claiming the one with the red outline in the attached photos. The barcode in that one looks blocky because of the angle of the image blending the lines together. Mine looks the same when viewed like that and the major groupings of lines matches mine.

And I think I see a slight tilt in the end cap of that one, which would match mine since the cap was slightly bent when I got it. (That is actually a piece from a kitchen faucet glued into the plastic cap of the tube.)

Also attached are a couple of other possibilities.

I just finished a rewatch a month or two ago, but I'm thinking of starting another one and looking out for any and all instances of an M5-10 vial showing up on screen to see if I can find a match for mine.

u/MEGAT0N — 10 days ago

Just a Crazy Thought

In a post apocalyptic world I can't help but wonder where Catalina gets those 2 packs of cigs a day that she smokes.. I can understand raiding places and stuff but 2044 is many years after society collapsed.. Just a crazy little ponder.....

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u/Inside-Company1549 — 10 days ago

The worst review of the show

Guys, I think I found the worst take and review u can have on the show, not only that, but it's a review of one of the best episodes of the entire show " one minute more " 🤣🤣

u/Aizawa_aimin — 12 days ago

Let's talk about Cassie's season 2 attitude

Cassandra Railly is such a fascinating character, people started talking about how sudden her change was between season 1 and 2, but I've watched the show five times now, and I don't agree with the " sudden" part, she always had a mean front that she used whenever she didn't want to get hurt, or was hurt.

You can see it in the finale of season 1, after Aaron died, instead of being sad about it, or taking time to process it, she directly moves on to the mission, thinking that once the mission succeeds nothing else will matter. Then before going inside the facility, cole clearly tells her that Ramsey is different from what he remembers, and that he is dangerous, he also thinks he is the witness, and so when she enters the room and sees that cole won't shoot him, she thinks he's not thinking rationally after seeing his old friend and so she takes the shot.

Then after being sent to the future, where she stays for 8 months, surviving hell, that facade becomes even more strong, but due to how subtle Amanda's acting is, u never buy that it's her actual personality, like after coming to 2016 and she met cole after the 8 months time skip, she looks relieved with a smile on her face, then she again sees Jennifer, and she goes for the kill, to complete the mission, but again cole tries to talk her out of it, she sees that as an emotional response, when in fact cole is thinking rationally, and then to top it off she sees him working with who she thinks is either the witness or at least worked with the 12 monkeys for decades, she feels betrayed, her hole life went to shit, and the only person she would trust sided with the enemy.

She said it best later in the season, why she hates Ramsey, she said : " because the person I trusted the most, whom I sacrificed everything for, chose him over me" that's why she was so angry at Cole, not because he left her in the future or because he killed Aaron like she was vocally saying in the beginning of the season, these were all excuses.

And Cole sees right through her at the end of the season, he calls her out on it, saying that she acts though, and shuts down the moment she feels she is gonna get hurt, but all she's doing is running away.

We also saw the front break multiple times that season, when Cole gave her their 1944 picture, or when he told her "u think I don't know what I cost u ?", or even when she was like "there's no WE remember?" And then the moment he starts to explain himself she goes " we can go to titan together" .

I was frustrated when I first watched season 2, but I never got angry at her, or at the writers, because her writing was ON POINT, it made sense why she would act that way, and I feel sad to see ppl reduce that to " oh she became a boss bitch " like what ? I'm not even a feminist , I hate those tropes more than most ppl, and I can definitely say it's not the case here, there's real substance underneath that persona.

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u/Aizawa_aimin — 10 days ago

Saving Sam would affect time how?

Jennifer is a primary.

Cole is the father and a paradox.

Cassie is the mother.

I understand those jumps.

But if they went back to a point when Sam was safe at the facility, grabbed him, and brought him to the present, how would that affect the timeline?

Cassie would still need to return to deliver the message, and Jennifer would still need to warn Cole to save Hannah. What has Sam done that cannot be undone?

Spoilers are welcome. I just started Season 3, and Goines’s theater work is brilliant comedy. The way she tried to reach Jones had me dying. I rewatched it three times.

Naomi splintering is CRAZY! I think I felt it! Woah!

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u/CharbonPiscesChienne — 14 days ago

My Name is Kyle- YouTube

Thanks to someone's recommendation in this group I found this YouTube channel - My Name is Kyle. He does reaction videos to the entire 12 Monkeys series, as well as other shows. I just finished watching his Monkey playlist. It was awesome seeing someone as passionate about this show as myself watching it all unfold for the first time. I highly recommend any Monkey enthusiast check it out if you want a new experience. 

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u/Outside_Ad5 — 13 days ago