A Response To Indians and there False claims/Hindutva driven Propaganda and attempts regarding the appropriation of Indus region's (pakistan) ancient history.
u/Exotic_Dealer711 — 13 hours ago
r/IndianHistoryThread
Kumbhalgarh Fort located in Rajasthan, India was commissioned by Maharana Kumbha in 1443, has world's second longest continuous wall with distance of 36 Km with walls 20-25 feet wide had fend off 4 major conquest campaigns only fell once after Emperor Akbar's army poisoned the freshwater source.
u/Fallen_Angel678 — 3 days ago
The Bagh Nakh, a historical Indian weapon based upon the claws of a tiger. It was used by soldiers, thieves, and there was also a poisoned variety for assassins. It can either be fitted over the knuckles or worn against the palm. There was even a form of "claw wrestling" which included the weapon.
u/Front-Coconut-8196 — 6 days ago
Panch Ratha Monument, Mahabalipuram, India. Monolithic temples Sculptured from granite rocks between 630 - 668 CE. 1825 sketch by J. Braddock J. Gantz and Now. It's a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
u/Front-Coconut-8196 — 9 days ago
Debunking OIT believers: The myth of "Pashupatinath" seal
OIT believers are a bunch of delusional people who don’t have a basic understanding of Linguistics, archeology or genetics. They can’t even understand what a study says - but they like to interpret it in their own ways.
Like they tried to manipulate what the Rakhigarhi results revealed.
All their arguments come from their scriptures. They don’t rely on scientific evidence.
- They reject Linguistics as a western propaganda
- They reject genetics as a western propaganda
- The only thing they rely on is their scriptures.
Coming to the Pashupatinath Seal
It was named Pasupati seal by John Marshall.
John believed that the seated figure with three faces and a horned head dress represented Proto Shiva. Since the figure was surrounded by wild animals - he named it Pasupati.
But how does this prove that Indo Europeans originated in IVC and spread outside? For all we know is - IVC people worshipped a seated deity with a horned head dress.
Similar seated deities can be found in other seals too:
The above seal has another seated deity with horned head dress and a single branch with three pipal leaves rises from the middle of the headdress.
- Does this supposed Proto Shiva fit the rig Vedic description of Rudra?
- Did Rigvedic Aryans worship Shiva Linga?
- Who was the prominent god of Rigvedic Aryans?
Before making a joke out of themselves, these OITians have to prove that Vedic people worshipped Lingams or Phallus.
If OITians start studying about material cultures, they will understand that IVC had a different material culture than the subsequent Vedic civilization. IVC was succeeded by PGW which was a different culture. B.B.lal was the first to identify PGW with Vedic Aryans.
The IVC was largely an urban culture which wasn’t nomadic and it wasn’t centered on horse or horse driven chariots or Indo-European gods who are described in Rigveda as driving chariots.
The horse problem:
We know that Indo Europeans laid great emphasis on horse motifs, they revered horses as the horse twins, described their gods and goddess as driving horse chariots.
Divine Twins:
Vedic : Divó nápātā (the Asvins); Lithuanian: Dievo sūneliai (the Asveiniai); Latvian : the Dieva dēli, Greek: the Diós-kouroi (Castor and Pollux), Celtic : the Dioskouroi
But, why horse was so important for them? They were one of the first group of people to domesticate horses. Horse domestication began in the steppes of Eurasia - where wild horses were found.
OITians don’t understand all this, they cite Sandor Bokonyi findings of horse remains in IVC. Without even fully reading what Bokonyi said about the remains.
The Lack of horse motifs in IVC:
Bull motif is in abundance in IVC and Bull is the most represented animal on the seals. Of the 1400 sites, there are a handful of figurines which archeologists claim to be horse figurines.
In general - horse is missing in the representations. OITians do some mental gymnastics as to why there is a lack of horse motifs in IVC.
OITians often cite a study by J. Manuel (he was with ASI tutored by K.K.Mohammad) in Purattatva.
He claimed that the lack of horse figurines and motifs or badly made horse figurines (the few that were identified as horse) might be due to the fact that the artists were not familiar with the animal as they were with rhinos.
He calls it ‘the occasional horse used by merchants’
He also agrees that there aren’t many examples of horse remains from IVC and those which are found are from late harappan times were all Equus Caballus - the Eurasian horse.
Yet he tries to mislead the audience by using words like - Indigenous horses.
Indigenous horses of Indian subcontinent had long went extinct, even before Indus Valley civilization came into existence.
They looked something like this:
They were Equus Namadicus.
There isn’t a single study that shows that true horses (domesticated horses) originated from Equus Namadicus.
There was another species which was found in Himalayas, it was called Equus sivelensis. Both Sivalensis and Namadicus were more closely related to zebras and asses than true horses.
Horse and Indo Europeans:
This is an Ancient Greek depiction of Sun god Helios
It’s a common theme in Indo European cultures to depict the Sun god going around the sky in chariots.
- In the Norse traditions, Sól rode through the sky on her chariot every day, pulled by two horses named Arvak and Alsvid.
- Apollo rides a chariot
- Helios rides a chariot
- In Vedic tradition- Surya rode through the sky with his chariot pulled by seven horses
The very reason is - they associated horse with speed.
- Indo Europeans were among the first to start domesticating and adopting horses as domestic animals.
- Horse domestication helped them spread far and wide. They started revering the animal as horse twins(Asvins - Vedic, Asvieniai- Lithuanian).
- They also associated the animal driven chariot with their deities.
Now let us look at the material culture in the IVC:
Indus Valley people had a different culture vastly different from Vedic aryans.
- For starters - they had knowledge of writing which RigVedic Aryans lacked. (The PGW which was linked with Vedic aryans by B.B.Lal - lacked knowledge of writing in the first phase)
- IVC seals and their depictions of animal sacrifices in seals - are clearly non-Vedic.
- IVC seals didn’t depict Vedic gods or their horse driven carriages or their lifestyle in general.
- IVC deities were associated with Peepal tree or peepal leaves. The worship of peepal trees in India must have had roots here.
- The most represented animal in the seals were - Bulls, not horses.
The OITs funnily even call the Unicorn seal modeled after a bull -as an evidence of horse.
Single horned bull seal:
A bull seal:
Lack of warrior burials:
Even the most vocal proponents of OIT in ASI haven’t denied the fact that IVC lacked a warrior class, which is an important aspect of Aryan society.
Both the Vedic Aryans and their cousins Iranians had a four-fold system and defined a warrior class and their duties.
The evidence of very first warrior tribe or presence of warrior class comes from Sinauli in UP. Which is classified as OCP culture - not IVC.
IVC lacks warrior burials.
A warrior burial usually has - remains of the warrior, his chariot, his accessories such as the helmet, sheaths, swords so on.
A Balkan Celtic warrior burial unearthed all this
The Sinauli warrior burial site:
Of the thousands of IVC sites - not even a single warrior burial was found.
OITians have no evidence on their side, they don’t have genetic evidence to show that there was a large-scale migration from Indian subcontinent to outside.
Their only argument for every single question is :
But, Rigveda mentions a river named Saraswati.
Iranians can use the same logic.
- The Avestan scripture Vendidad mentions that Aryans left their homeland Airyanəm Vaēǰah *(*Aryānwēžan in Parthian, literally meaning ‘expanse of Aryans) and migrated to 16 perfect lands created by Ahura Mazda, because it became inhospitable due to severe cold.
- The 10th lands their god created and they migrated to was Harahvaiti (Avestan equivalent of Saraswati - the regions surrounding the river Arghandab and the 15th land they migrated to is - Hapta Hndu. (Sapta Sindu)
What does Vendidad mean? It’s a contraction of - Videvdat, meaning,
“Given against the Devas(demons)”
Even if OIT favoring archeologists try to twist facts- the fact remains that Archeology had repeatedly favored the - theory of Aryan migration into the subcontinent and not the other way around.
If Indo Europeans indeed originated from Indian subcontinent and spread to Eurasia,
- OITians have to prove that horse domestication started in Indian subcontinent. But, scientific evidence shows that - all modern domesticated horses originated from the Eurasian horse.
- OITians have to explain lack of horse motifs in Indus seals unearthed. And explain why they don’t depict the Vedic gods or Indo-European gods.
- OITians have to explain why steppe migrations into Indian subcontinent is largely male mediated.
- They have to explain the presence various language families in the Indian subcontinent. Do they believe all the language families are indigenous? Do they reject Austroasiatic migrations too?
When they do so conclusively with archeological, linguistic and genetic evidences, their theory will be accepted. That's how science works.
For now, scientific consensus favors the steppe hypothesis over the Anatolian hypothesis.
References:
http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/140/1401080013.pdf
u/UnionChoice2562 — 7 days ago
Mahapatra (Central Indian Surname)
Two Different Brahmin Identities - Mahapatra (Indian Title) and Mahapaatar (Misappropriated use of Title by Later Regional Profession).
u/InitiativeLife3700 — 8 days ago