r/IndoEuropean

IE Language group origins from Southern Caucuses/Armenian Highlands/Northern Iran

IE Language group origins from Southern Caucuses/Armenian Highlands/Northern Iran

We know now the Yamnaya culture was not the originator of the language but inherited and eventually spread the language and with far reaching distance due to their use of wheeled technology. Yamnaya culture contained a large admixture from the Caucasian HG DNA combined with Eastern HG DNA which makes sense given the origins of the IE languages started from Southern Caucuses and they would have inherited the language through their Southern Caucasian ancestors.

Early on in the development of the language it spread west in Anatolia and would eventually form the earliest attested IE language, Hittite. And we know from genetic research Hittites did not have Yamnaya DNA. Another migration reached the Pontic-Caspian and Forest Steppe around 7000 years ago, and from there subsequent migrations spread into parts of Europe around 5000 years ago.

Caucasian Hunter Gatherer DNA is also directly related to Iranian Zagrosian Hunterer Gatherer DNA so indirectly Europeans through Yamnaya do have ancestry related to Iran through CHG DNA.

Through the Yamnaya migrations eastward the development of a new culture called the Sintashta culture (Proto-Proto-Iranic ancestors) would come to fruition and eventually through migrations south into Central Asia come FULL CIRCLE back into Iran as a more modern variety of the ancient language that was originally spoken in its northern lands.

u/lurebozorg — 10 hours ago

If you could travel to any time and place to hear Indo-European language(s) spoken, when and where would you pick?

Imagine that you will not be in danger regardless of when and where you pick. It's a tossup between the Tarim Basin in the mid-1st millennium CE and 2nd-millennium BCE Anatolia for me.

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u/Korwos — 2 days ago

Are Armenians really Indo Europeans? and what does it mean if PIE homeland is in Anatolia or Armenia?

First off, I think anyone who checks would see the modern Armenian virtually has low Yamnaya DNA, I myself, through Qpadm and G25 are on average 3-7% Yamnaya, and I am a mix of Western/Eastern Armenian (Where Yamnaya arrived)

The language of Armenian is very different, I understand the verbs, nouns, and changes that Armenia had (such as softening the words), what I don't understand is how can Armenians be Indo European when

A) our language is not similar to any IE language except for some words that could be loanwords, albeit Classical Armenian does have much more similarities.

B) Our genetics, even during Yamnaya invaisions, were low, much lower than any neighbor we had. The average Modern Armenian has 4% Yamnaya.

C) I know "R1b" is the majority, but not by much. technically, but I don't know a single Armenian that has it. Everyone I know either has J1, or J2. R1b is still pretty rare for someone I know. Steppe haplogroups such as I2 completely seem to have left, when they dominated most of Armenia.

D) words like "Eagle" in Armenian are translated as "Arciv", which languages such as Kartvelian also have, likely indicating it borrowed from Armenian, but how could Kartvelian borrow such a word from Armenian, when "IE" Armenian didn't exist at the time?

I know, I know, I will catch a lot of flack for this, I'm not a scientist, not someone smart, but what I can see happening is:

Yamnaya rode in through Eastern Georgia, arrived in parts of Armenia, mostly dominated villages such as Lchashen and ultimately the start of the Lchashen Metsamor Culture, they spread their genetics pretty far, as most samples had it, but we can also see a lot of samples, during LMC times, that have less than 6% yamnaya and non yamnaya haplogroups, which shows that even during the peak of their culture, not all Armenians mixed with them or even interacted.

Could the Armenian language be the predecessor the Proto Indo Europeans, or atleast not be Indo European, just heavily influenced by them?

How can the Armenians speak the language of someone that conquered their lands and genetic? Were our ancestors really that weak? Did they really on horseback ride into Armenia, marry with local women, and give us the language as a sheer reminder of how strong they were? I cannot bring myself to believe it.

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u/Wise_Combination1054 — 2 days ago

Is the glottalic theory becoming mainstream?

PIE is usually reconstructed to have three series of stops: voiced, voiceless, and breathy. According to the Leiden version of the glottalic theory, at the Late PIE, those were (pre)glottalised, fortis, and lenis.  (Perhaps voicing wasn't a phonemic characteristic, though it could exist allophonically. Kinda like in modern Korean, I guess?)

Kortlandt provides quite a few arguments in favor of the glottalic theory here.

Kloekhorst's conclusion here.

Are there any arguments against this interpretation of the glottalic theory?

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u/Utkozavr — 4 days ago

IE languages word order Europe VS Asia

IE Languages in Europe (1.71 billion+ native speakers):

English: They did not worship God. (500m native speakers) SVO

Spanish: Ellas no adoraban a Dios. (500m native speakers) SVO

Portuguese: Eles não adoravam a Deus. (250m native speakers) SVO

Russian: Oni ne poklonyalis Bogu. (150m native speakers) SVO

German: Sie beteten Gott nicht an. (90m native speakers) SVO

French: Ils n'adoraient pas Dieu. (80m native speakers) SVO

Italian: Loro non adoravano Dio. (60m native speakers) SVO

Polish: Oni nie czcili Boga. (40m native speakers) SVO

Ukrainian: Vony ne poklonialysya Bohu. (40m native speakers) SVO

-

IE Languages in Asia (1.36 billion+ native speakers):

Hindi: Unhone Bhagwanki puja nahi ki (550m native speakers) SOV

Punjabi: Unha Rabbdi puja nahi kiti (150m native speakers) SOV

Persian: Una Khodaro nemiparastidan. (110m native speakers) SOV

Bengali: Tara Isbarer puja koreni (250m native speakers) SOV

Urdu: Unhon Khudaki ibadat nahi ki (80m native speakers) SOV

Marathi: Tyani Devaci puja keli nahi (80m native speakers) SOV

Gujrati: Temne Bhagwanni puja nathi kar (50m native speakers) SOV

Pashto: Haghwe da Khuday ibadat wa nakra (50m native speakers) SOV

Kurdish: Ew Khwedere parasti nedikirin. (40m native speakers) SOV

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u/lurebozorg — 4 days ago
▲ 49 r/IndoEuropean+1 crossposts

Map of the Trzciniec Culture Proper (Possible culture associated to the Temematic Peoples).

ill post sources tomorrow or whenever

u/PolabstaKortiz — 4 days ago

Information about R-Z2103

Hi, i did a dna test in 2022, and uploaded my raw data to YSEQ, İ am positive for R1b, Specifically R-Z2103 Subclade. I’m from Türkiye and i would like to know my ancestors origins. İ know its a Core Yamnaya haplogroup but what are the possibilities how my ancestors migrated to Türkiye. Thank you in advance.

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u/Odd-Camera1141 — 4 days ago

PIE Admixture in Europe.

PIE Admixture in Europe. All models were done using qpAdm.
Twitter: CsfHighlan97034

u/H1ghlander1 — 5 days ago

Seeking recommendations on Indo-Iranian migrations, religion, and culture

Hi all,

I've always been very interested in historical linguistics and on the early spread of Indo-European peoples and cultures, but one blind-spot I have is for the early history of Indo-Iranian culture. I am wanting to read more about this ethno-linguistic-cultural group - especially from an archeological and comparative studies point of view. I'm particularly interested in early migrations and religio-cultural reconstruction. If you have any recommended readings on this, I'd love to hear them!

Thank you in advance!

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u/xCosmicChaosx — 6 days ago

Horse genetics, archaeology, and the beginning of riding (Anthony, Trautmann, & Heyd 2026)

Horse genetics, archaeology, and the beginning of riding

Abstract:

"Recent papers argued that the domestication of horses can be equated with the appearance of favorable genetic mutations that are first evident in individuals in the DOM2 clade dated about ∼2200–2100 BCE. We challenge the idea that this genetic shift alone defines domestication. Evidence from archaeology, ancient DNA, osteology, and other disciplines shows that horses from multiple genetic backgrounds (DOM1, DOM2, and, as we suggest here, DOM3) were managed, milked, and ridden long before 2200 BCE. Yamnaya groups (∼3200–2600 BCE) rode DOM2 horses—the direct ancestors of modern domestic stock—while incorporating them into diets, rituals, and mobility systems. Selection for traits linked to endurance and temperament began centuries earlier. Rather than a sudden breakthrough, domestication was a protracted, regionally varied process whose transformative effects on human mobility and social organization began as early as the fourth, if not the fifth millennium BCE, and set the stage for later DOM2 dominance."

Press coverage here: The first domesticated horses: 6,000 years of a complex story

u/Hippophlebotomist — 8 days ago

If you went back in time 1000 years ago, would speakers of european languages have an easier time understanding each other?

Would an Anglo-Saxon be able to learn Old High German, Greek or Italian much faster than their modern equivalent?

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u/Zealousideal_Low9994 — 8 days ago

Any evidence of elevated aggression from detected CDH13(cadherin) and MAOA1 genes from Sintashta samples?

Yesterday I was reading a chapter in a book on racial science and the nature-nuture debate, and one chapter in particular introduced me to what is known as the cadherin 13 and monoamine oxidase 1 genes(warrior genes supposedly): mind you I have a lot of science & history literature in my personal library at home, and today I started thinking about the ancient Sintashta population of the Ural Steppe-Forest zone, and began wondering if the Sintashta proclivity for warfare was possibly due to their being some sort of chemical imbalance from unstable levels of dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, and epinephrine among some of the male inhabitants of their population. My understanding is these neurotransmitters/brain chemicals are responsible for helping manage or control stress levels, and serotonin obviously is beneficial for sleep, but neurodevelopmental disorders such as antisocial behavior, violent impulse/aggressive behavior and ADHD/Autism stem from neurological dysfunction and disruption of normal brain activity... according to the author family cohesiveness, educational attainment and financial stability are effected by trauma, and due to the harsh environment of the Steppes, both its climate and the dangers that would have been encountered, human and animal it's possible this elevated stress levels in ancient Steppe populations, altering genes that inhibited proper neurotransmitter function, resulting in a more aggressive population in the Steppes, other than that it's possible that cultural forces played a role too, seeing how ancient Indo-European societies had a patriarchal-warrior-pastoral system under which they lived.

I'm just curious to know what some other people's thoughts are on this... can the presence of such genes even be detected from DNA samples taken from ancient human remains?

Is it possible that such genes sparked the creativity for some of the vehicular and militaristic innovations that the Sintashta came up with to give them an edge in warfare, in addition to the construction of the fortified industrial settlement at Sintashta?

Mind you the author states that increased crime in America in predominantly black communities between 2015-2016, and she cites a Finnish article from 2014, that an estimated 5-10% of Finnish convicts in Finland were purportedly the most violent in prison, is due to a higher frequency of the CDH13 and MAOA genes among that segment of the prison population, however she is explicit, that biology alone cannot account for why some individuals or populations are disproportionately more violent than others, because environmental stimuli are also a trigger for why some Individuals or particular ethnic-groups tend to be more violent.

u/amero_abarrkan — 8 days ago
▲ 62 r/IndoEuropean+4 crossposts

Hi! Does anyone know where I can find the sources for both claims? I would like to learn more about Gallaecian onomastics.

u/blueroses200 — 10 days ago

What...what the? Does this mean that protoindoeuropean comes from a random frozen wasteland in Siberia? I am confused...

u/Full-Recover-8932 — 13 days ago