r/TobyFox

Something that always bothered me about the Dess Knight theory is that if Dess is the Knight, who’s the voice in the code?

The most common interpretation of the UNUSED dialogue is that it‘s Dess, who is trapped in the files of the game.

There really isn’t a better candidate for who is stuck in the code, in my opinion.

But if she‘s trapped in there, then she can’t be the Knight.

Unless, of course, that’s how the Knight works??

We know very little about how the mechanics of BEING the Knight works. Are they just a dark world form of a Lightner? Some amalgamation? A monster who absorbed a human (Kris’s) soul?

UNUSED Dialogue, for reference:

Where...
Where am I?
Hello...? Anyone...?
Is... is anybody out there...?
Someone!? Anyone!? Can anyone hear me!?
...
It's dark.
It's so dark here.
Someone, anyone, if you can hear me...
Say something... please...

No one can hear me, can they...?
...
I guess not.
To be honest, I'm not even sure if I can hear myself.
It's so quiet here...
... and yet, sometimes,
I swear I hear something...
Something like... scratching?

What is this place, anyway...?
How did I get here?
... as if I haven't asked that question a billion times already.
I...
I always did have that nightmare.
Walking into the darkness,
With the light shining from the doorway...
Then the door slams behind me.
And everything goes black.
... is this that nightmare?
... or was everything else a dream?

I'm starting to lose track of the time.
Has it been days? Hours?
If someone told me it's been years, I might believe them...
Before, the sun came up,
And so many wonderful things happened that made time meaningful.
Things like breakfast, or late night TV...
In this place,
I don't eat or drink anymore.
I can't tell if I'm awake or dreaming.
I can't even tell if I'm dead or alive.
It's just nothing but pitch black silence.
... except for the noise.
The scratching noise I sometimes hear...
This sounds crazy, but even though no one can hear me,
When I hear that noise, I feel like someone's listening.
Anyone, if you're there... thank you.

I do have one thing, though.
And that's memories.
Memories of my life...
Maybe that's all I am at this point.
A collection of memory...
Then all I can do is... not forget, right?
"Don't forget."
I just have to keep telling myself that...

I just can’t think of anyone else who would make sense. Honestly, the only other person who has a chance of fitting the bill would be Asriel, who’s supposedly at College, but he hasn’t been there very long. He wouldn’t have been trapped long enough to reasonably believe that it’s been years.

If there’s anyone else that fits the bill (without any kind of mental gymnastics), please discuss below.
Until then, all my knight theories would go on r/NonDessKnightSquad

So obviously as most know by now, if you do genocide and then a true pacifist run, then you get the soulless ending where chara is set free into the surface. I propose that staying with Toriel is the right choice in this event. My headcanon is that you're SUPPOSED to do genocide then true pacifist. Because you set Chara into your body then he/she/they are set free. At the end of true pacifist if you return then flowey shows up saying "hey, everything is perfect here. I know you can reset but why would you?" For both pacifist and tpacifist he points towards another ending. So what if he's tricking you into letting Chara into you via genocide. Considering Chara can destroy worlds, they're probably capable of bringing Asriel back. In which case then you choose to go with Toriel and Chara takes full control or it's kinda like yuji/sukuna where frisk and chara can switch and eventually they can make a new vessel. However if you chose to go, then Chara goes to harm those who harmed Asriel since Asriel was likely one of if not their only real friends.

Sorry for the yap. 😅

For those who don’t know, Toby’s original plan was to release Deltarune when it was fully complete, but first released Chapter 1 in 2018 as a free demo, to see if people would be interested, and to see if he could even get the game completed.

Eventually Toby decided to release the game episodically due to how long it took to get each Chapter out.

When it came time to release Chapter 2, we were still in the midst of the pandemic, so Toby decided to forgo payment for the time being and bundle it with the free demo.

This was probably the BEST THING Toby could have done for the game, marketing wise (besides launching the paid release with the Switch 2 and announcing it through the Switch 2 direct). Chapter 2 did a LOT for the game, including actually getting me interested in the game.

Chapter 1 never really did it for me. Don’t get me wrong, it was intriguing, but something about Chapter 1 was just kinda weak. Maybe it’s the humor or the dialogue or even the simplistic visuals (even compared to Undertale and ESPECIALLY the rest of the game) but Chapter 1 isn’t that appealing to me.

Chapter 2, on the other hand, is far more appealing to me. Beyond just being a little more polished, the visuals and character writing FAR exceed Chapter 1. Even in the music department, Chapter 2 has more songs that I like then Chapter 1, and Chapter 1 was no slouch when it came to the music.

A part of why I like Chapter 2 so much is the expanded cast. Queen is genuinely one of the funniest characters ever written (in my opinion). Noelle is adorable and relatable and Berdly is absolutely hilarious. Susie and Ralsei are also a good bit more interesting and overall I like this dynamic more than just Susie, Ralsei, and Lancer.

And then there’s the ending stinger. The Twist. In Chapter 1, we ended with Kris ripping out their soul (AKA Us, The Player). This twist fakes you out into thinking that the game is going to be far darker than you expected…and the first thing Chapter 2 reveals is that Kris merely ate some pie…I’m not going to say that this was insignificant. It does clearly set up that we and Kris are NOT the same. It sets up the twist in Chapter 2. This is one of the most important plot developments so far…but I thought it was kind of a cheap misdirection.

The Chapter 2 the ending is far more interesting and impactful. The Roaring Knight had been built up since Chapter 1 and the Knight was a significant plotbeat that had only been teased up to this point. But now, the prior chapter ending is not only expanded upon, but the Knight is teased to be Kris themselves. This not only establishes that Kris has ulterior motives, but that WE, THE PLAYER, ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH THE CHARACTER WE CONTROL.

I had never really seen a game do something like this. Needless to say, my purchase of the full game was GUARANTEED.

You can argue that Chapter 1 also established that Kris had different motivations from the player but the execution of Chapter 2’s ending did a far better job of getting that point across. It sets up that we and Kris are different, but that’s not what most people took away from the ending. Most people thought that they were possessed by freakin’ Chara, which is not the case at all and is less interesting than what the game is actually doing.

Thoughts?

Edit: I FORGOT ABOUT THE WEIRD ROUTE That made Deltarune a HELL of a lot more interesting too. The idea of “one ending“ is far more interesting now.

I think most people know by this point that Toby Fox's games are heavily inspired by Earthbound and the Mother series. Unlike most people, I've actually played Earthbound and have had a chance to see what exactly is meant by inspiration. I thought I'd share some of those inspirations. I personally found it highlighted what makes Deltarune unique, and also why I kind of find it annoying when people compare it to Undertale or traditional Jrpgs.

This isn't a full retrospective or anything by the way. These are just observations from getting surprisingly far in a single day of gameplay.

one of the biggest things I got from this experience was immediately recognizing where the idea for Undertale's meta narrative came from. While Deltarune and Undertale are very hoity toity with their pacifism and what not, Earthbound is a real grenadier's rpg. Everything about the combat is made to be a satisfying experience, especially getting better at it. If Ness gets strong enough, the game won't even transition to combat during enemy encounters. you just bump into them, the screen swirls--flashes--then BAM! it's over. 37 exp for Ness, presumably as he crushes the walking mushroom or stray dog or some such under his feet like the worthless cretins they are. Get even more powerful and those same enemies will actively *run away* from you as you chase them. And you will chase them, because they are walking morsels of delicious experience.

Just that brief description should be enough to make the inspiration for the genocide route clear. But that's Undertale. What does Earthbound have to say about Deltarune?

a small thing is how the Fox handles characters discussing game mechanics. It's a staple of 90s rpgs to have a character explicitly tell the player they can do this or that with the [x] button. There's even a moment in the first store of the game where you can talk to a dog and it goes, "hey, I'm being possessed by the dev. this is how you equip stuff." It's all very heavy handed in a way which goes all the way around to being endearing. It's very much in line with the sort of things Ralsei says.

A bigger thing is that Deltarune is not like Earthbound in terms of story. Now I know what you're thinking, "but [insert username], aren't both inevitably going to end with the protagonists killing god (or an equivalent metaphysical force) through the power of friendship (or an equivalent sappy element)?" And yeah, that's probably how Deltarune is going to turn out. But I will ask you this; is there any point in Earthbound where our motivation is derived from Ness as a character? When playing, does it feel like we're engaged because we're taking the story seriously and treating the setting as a world equivalent to ours? to put it simply, is Earthbound formatted first and foremost to be a compelling story, or a fun and entertaining video game? The answer most of the time is no, Earthbound is firstly a silly video game.

Don't mistake this as me denigrating the game's story. I'm certainly not criticizing the writing. I think Earthbound has some of the funniest dialogue in any game. No, what I'm saying is that Earthbound is ultimately like a classic Looney-Tunes-style cartoon. While the writing is witty and everything well crafted, the thing being crafted is made to simply be as entertaining as possible. The people making the game weren't trying to make the story to define a generation. They were trying to make something fun. What this means is that they don't take themselves as seriously in some places. They don't feel the need to tie every narrative thread together, make all the characters as deep and profound as possible, and make sure the protagonist is the actual main character. This is a game, and those things do not necessarily make a game better.

This matches almost 1-to-1 with the format of Undertale's story. While it's certainly a lot more intentional with its themes and has a lot more thought behind it, the story still ultimately serves to make a really good game first, story second. Frisk is the protagonist, but only so that we can exist in this world; their motivations are so unimportant that we the player have a greater narrative presence than them. Much of the time is spent exploring a fun and interesting world, even if it doesn't neccessarily contribute to the greater narrative. Like, Papyrus serves about as much narrative importance as "fail-proof" Frank Fly in terms of first bosses--while they're vaguely impacted by larger narrative stuff, people aren't enjoying them for their profound contributions to the themes of their games. They enjoy them cause they're fun to be around!

Contrast this with Deltarune. Deltarune's setting is not one made to just be fun. Everything in it has to contribute to the larger narrative in some way. Everything has to be put together by the Fox with the understanding that it will be heavily scrutinized for clues and taken literally. Oh, chapter 4 ends with Toriel and fan-favorite Sans dancing drunk after we've been worrying about her all chapter? The fanbase immediately accepted this as an intentional and serious move to make Toriel a more nuanced and flawed character. Oh, Asgore was written to be as obfuscatingly vague as possible about darker lore in the last fun "calm before the storm" chapter? It's him intentionally trying to not traumatize his child. Everything is put under a microscope and taken seriously because, after all, what is it we always say? Toby thought of that.

I think this in large part is why the fandom can be a pain to participate in. It's not that people put Toby on a pedestal; and therefore are stupid idiots who won't listen to me whine. It's that people put Toby on a pedestal and expect perfect intent from him all the time. He can't make a mistake, or even just throw something in for the heck of it; because Toby thought of that. Because of this, If you don't want to treat Toby as a master storyteller always two steps ahead of our feeble attempts at media literacy--you end up sounding like you have a massive stick up your ass.

For instance, I think the lake-side Suselle scene in chapter 5 was kinda meh. I don't think that as a professional hater. I'm not enacting my shipping agenda. I'm just engaging with the story as it's given to me, and as I took it, the lake scene was kinda meh. I'd have the same reaction if it was in Red Dead 2 or something. But I can't just say that, because Toby thought of that. if you disagree and enjoyed the lake scene, I'm just being delusional. If you agree and didn't enjoy the lake scene, it's because it's actually on purpose because Suselle is doomed so Krisselle or Berdsei or whatever can take over, blah blah blah. you can't just take the scene as it is given to you, because everyone has such high expectations for Toby and his story.

It's funny. The game being unfinished is a very common retort to criticism. But I actually think much of the fandom's neurosis will be cured when the game is finished--not because it'll turn out all the debbie downers were too blind to see the real vision--but because the die-hard fans will have to accept that, no, Toby didn't think of that.

I think we can all agree that we were all pretty disappointed in Castle Town in Chapter 5 and even a little bit in Chapter 4.

Chapter 2 (post Cyber World) got it right. The DJ Studio was introduced, where you could play select tracks, which was pretty cool. There was also the Battle Dojo, where you could do a handful of really cool fights-It was a great way to practice, and you got cool rewards.

In Chapter 5, the Studio was taken over by Topchef and did nothing, and it was straight up closed in Chapter 4.

In Chapter 4, the Battle Dojo became the “Love Dojo”. (I don’t think a lot of people found this funny…I certainly didn’t) and there was only one fight there. (You also couldn’t access the fights from Chapter 2-I was initially under the impression that they would roll over into the next chapters, along with a few new ones every time.) In Chapter 5, Pirate Gaster demanded the Dojo Be Pirate themed…and the actual new battle was moved to the freaking bakery for some reason. It’s a great fight, but it should have been in the Dojo.

The only thing that has been properly expanded upon in each Chapter is the rhythm game-We got the 4rd Sanctuary, which was one of my favorite additions. Unfortunately I’m not a big rhythm game guy but I appreciate that these are here. These seem to be the exception though, not the rule. Not even the Mike Mini-games carry over.

So for Chapter 6, I would bring back the Studio proper (as well as the ability to change the theme of Castle Town), and I would rework the Dojo so that you would be able to refight certain enemies and bosses, and maybe even have a boss rush, as well as ALL prior Dojo fights. Netski can imitate enemies, so that’s how I would justify it. Hell, maybe the Netski‘s take over the Dojo.

Then I would add Flower Man to the Rhythm game area (As well as Field of Hopes and Dreams). I would also add the Cooking and Susiezilla minigames. weird they weren’t already there. (Mike’s games too, assuming you fought them.)

The Church area would get another climbing challenge or two, as well as new sounds for the piano.

There would also be a new building that the Flower King recruits build, housing Platforming challenges. (Including a scrapped room that mixed the Platform/shape sliding puzzles with the moving pianos.)

What do you all think? Did I leave something out?

Edit: I forgot to mention, there would be a festive remix of My Castle Town, and the whole town would have a Christmas re-theme for the Chapter, as Noelle is arriving.

Edit 2: I also forgot to mention that you would be able to go to Castle Town before AND after the Dark World. It might not work out story-wise but I hope it can happen.

A commenter (Slow-Ordinary-5256) also suggested that Ralsei actually gets to use the Ralsei Rancher, as clearly he likes it. (This could be a really satisfying moment where he stands up to Susie when she inevitably shuts down the idea.)

Hey guys, I had an idea for a hilarious, layers-deep Toby Fox tribute fangame/concept. What if someone updated or remade the climax of the 2008 EarthBound Halloween Hack, but turned it into the ultimate April Fools bait-and-switch?
The Setup:
You get to the final boss fight with Dr. Andonuts. He starts giving his iconic caps-lock angry rant (maybe using a cleaned-up version of the text, like: "YOU FUCKING IDIOTS ARE GOING TO FUCKING DIE RIGHT HERE CUZ I HAVE FUCKING HAD WITH ALL YOUR SHIT!"). Or maybe he just yells "GET OFF MY LAWN."
The Bait-and-Switch:
Right after his text box closes and the battle starts, a massive PING sound plays. Dr. Andonuts' sprite instantly warps into Sans shrugging. The entire classic EarthBound battle screen violently glitches out and transforms into the black Undertale battle box with your red SOUL right in the middle, fully functional with the FIGHT / ACT / ITEM / SPARE buttons.
The Chaos:
The Music: The original, crunchy 2008 SNES version of Megalovania hits, but it instantly gets pitch-bent and sped up to 130 BPM to match modern Undertale speed.
The Attack: Before you can even process what is happening, a massive grid of Gaster Blasters surrounds the box and fires hyper-fast lasers. You have to use your D-pad/arrow keys to dodge, but because you expected turn-based combat, you take instant, massive damage.
If you try to SPARE: Sans' eye flashes blue, a text box says "spare? buddy, you're in a 2008 rom hack. we don't do pacifism here," and it immediately triggers a "get dunked on" bone trap.
Game Over: A bit-crushed version of the Undertale Game Over theme plays, and Sans says: "geez, you really tried to use a D-pad to dodge lasers in an EarthBound hack? go touch some grass." Then the game hard-resets.
Would anyone actually want to code this or animate a concept video for it? I feel like it perfectly matches Toby's exact style of humor.

2024: The Roaring Knight’s identity
2025: Dess’s disappearance
2026: Asgore’s horrible day

Hi. I'm relatively new to ut/dr(got the dr demo in june and ut in july) Is there actually ever any reference to Gaster or how he looks? I'd assume in the true lab or something like that.