Does this comment exclude south of Sante Fe or is that just hearsay from one person's interpretation?
Officially on the website, two big fat x's on Oregon and Colorado.
Posting this in hopes it helps. I want us to group think on this and have a discussion. In the Paternal Ploy "Niven" is mentioned. Assuming this is referring to the mathematician Ivan Niven, this gives some interesting data. I had AI count the letter, word and sentence counts for each chapter of the book to see which chapters hit. The data is posted in the photo above.
I am admittedly not a math person and had to look Niven numbers up, here is the definition:
"A Niven number (also called a Harshad number) is a positive integer that is evenly divisible by the sum of its own digits."
Chapter 24 "The Aft Assault" contains 3 Niven number counts in ALL (the letters, words, and sentences.)
Also Chapter number breakdown is:
24
Add its digits:
2 + 4 = 6
Divide the original number by the digit sum:
24 ÷ 6 = 4
Because 4 is a whole number, 24 is a Niven number.
Here's where it gets interesting: Sentence 4 in the Aft Assault gives us a location: Grasshopper Valley. Sentence 6 gives us the word anchor, followed by Polaris in sentence 7.
Chapter 42 "The Grizzly Gathering" also has a hit in the word count.
42
Digit sum:
4 + 2 = 6
Divide:
42 ÷ 6 = 7
Because 7 is a whole integer, 42 is a Niven number.
Sentence 6 & 7 in the Grizzly Gathering also gives locations: the North Fork of the Blackfoot River near Ovando. "There the river cleaves the wilderness between Bob Marshall and the Blackfoot Valley."
So you see where I am going with this analysis.
Does anybody have any ideas how this might apply to decoding the poem?
What's stumping me is the following description in the Paternal Ploy that is such a random, but precise illustrative detail that it just seems "uncanny." Posey writes: "He greeted us with a nod, his weathered hands absentmindedly fiddling with a set of what must have been 18 to 20 keys on an old brass ring."
Why 18-20? Does this have anything to do with the map and how we should analyze it? Perhaps with Polaris as the anchor? Could he be telling us to look at Polaris as the centre anchor with 18-20 key points around? Like snells window refraction riddle mentioned in The Aft Assault ?
How can we push further and group think this? Do you think the Niven numbers are giving us coordinate hints? Let's see what we can come up with and have a thorough discussion on Niven numbers.
Update (further definition on Snell’s window):
The Normal: Scientists measure angles using an imaginary straight line called the normal, which sits at a 90-degree angle to the surface of the material.
Snell's Law: The math behind this change is known as Snell's Law, which compares the angles and speeds (refractive indices) of the two materials.
From my speculation (imo), I think this hunt will either end very soon, or early next summer.
I have a botg planned later this month, and it will likely (in my estimation) be my last time searching for the treasure. This meaning that if I don’t find it, someone else will find it elsewhere before I am able to go out again.
This reality has made me confront how I would react if the treasure was announced to be found.
This could happen at anytime. Before Im finished typing this, an announcement could go on the website.
There will be no warning. There will only be infinite possibilities until they are immediately constrained to one:
Someone else already figured it out.
It made me curious if anyone else has considered their reaction to when this announcement comes (because it inevitably will) and how yall think you will react?
If I don’t find it, Ill just be sad for a while haha. Not sad that someone else found it, just sad that I wasn’t able to chase down the rest of my leads.
- not written by AI
I don't think this means anything, just happened on this wordplay when re-reading the Mom's House chapter.
Meghan is a Quarter horse. It's an illustration. He's hanging. Hung, Drawn and Quartered...
But Posey’s menions guard this defiled place. Always fishing for answers, always wondering who’s who, always playing interference, always giving away hints and clues, always up to no good. You can't fool me cuz I have lots of experience with guards. You menions make it impossible to play nice; you're on your own now. By the time you figure out I left it will be to late for you to catch up.
The man is weak stomached ? What do you think is the smell that turns JMP’s nose? Clearly he’s slightly squeamish? Or?? What’s the common underlying thread here we might be overthinking on that story tid bit ? I feel something here like spidey senses …. I remember many funny and funky candle smells myself from the 90s …… particularly Christmas ones . That’s what turned my nose as a kid …. Is the underlying implication something here worth hounding ?wait dogs smell too . Damn it rabbit !! This candle thing has me irked a tad . Anyone wana discuss opinions / theories/ smells you remember or think JMP hates? I bet it’s cloudcroft#42 in fresh linen and pine with a hint of rawdoggin it .
Did anyone notice alot of Christmas references in the book? Christmas trees, Christmas eve, Santa clause etc..all though out the book. I saw Christmas celebration is big in a place called bigfork montana..any thought about this?
Many men go fishing their entire lives without knowing it is not fish they are after. —Henry David Thoreau
I took a break from BTME, or at least from trying to decipher the poem. While many of you on Reddit have been preoccupied with putting out metaphorical fires or defending ANY criticism of Justin. I’ve come to accept that these flames are part of the cycle. It’s a complex dance of perspectives, with supporters and critics alike, but ultimately, it’s all part of the natural order.
Fires can help clear dense underbrush and promote ecosystem health by regenerating plants and creating diverse habitats. After all, diversity in thoughts and opinions fuel growth, just as fires rejuvenate a forest. Embracing this diversity enriches our discussions around BTME, reminding us that every perspective adds value, even when it feels like we're stoking the flames.
There is no order without chaos, there is no light without darkness, and there is no apthathy without passion. Some people on here try to extinguish people’s passions, posting comments like:
“Imagine if you put this much effort into actually solving the poem”
Here’s the thing, you don’t get to dictate what participation looks like in this hunt. Sure, your lawyer can send a cease and desist, your friends can ban your opps from their discord, create PR campaigns - but you can’t STOP what people think or communicate. BUT, you can certainly stop reading, stop showing up, stop logging on, stop replying, stop engaging and let the fire of passion burn out. As they say, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Let me cook. I’m serving golden fish.
The very word "passion" originates from the Latin passio, meaning "suffering" or "endurance," which hints at the notion that true fervor often comes with both joy and pain. This historical connection underscores how our deepest passions can both illuminate our paths and scorch our souls, creating a compelling dichotomy that fuels our human experience. Let me carry my flame to illuminate my path, you can sleep while I explore.
Don’t worry, I’m not here to post any criticism about Justin. Instead, I’ll be doing the opposite. I applaud Justin for creating this puzzle. I strongly believe, Justin’s puzzle carries a message of hope and embraces this dichotomy of order and chaos.
While some of you have been looking to the stars for answers, using pareidolia to guide your quest, or consuming large amounts of American West history - I’ve been focused on understanding Justin. The good, the bad, and the ugly. It’s not to say that those other things hold no merit, but instead of reading the clock time, I’ve dissembled the timing mechanism to attempt to understand why it ticks and while I feel like I’ve made progress, I’m probably just as lost as the rest of y’all, but I’d like to share some thoughts and insights.
To grasp the concept of structure, it's essential to first understand its purpose. In other words, knowing why something was created provides valuable insight into its design and function. So before we look at the poem, let’s outline what Justin has said behind the why. I wrote about this at length in a now deleted post, but let’s look at what Justin says about the “big message.”
During the Deep State interview on X, Tyler asked about the "big message" Justin intended to convey, he outlined five key themes: Grief, A Message of Hope, Living in the Moment, Getting Outside, and Conservation. I believe, understanding these motivations enhances our interpretation of the poem. I’ll provide part of the transcript and try to expand upon it.
X, Deep State Transcript:
Tyler:
What do you think is the big takeaway from your book that you would tell somebody who's like, hey, like what do you want me to know? Like the big message from the book. What would that be? Would you say?
Justin:
No one’s ever asked me that before. Probably a few different things. You know, I think I think part of it is just the feedback that I've received. Is it? I think for anybody who's experienced any degree of grief in their life or, you know, a deep traumatic experience or loss. I hope that I can relate to them. And the book was a way for me to do that. And it was also a cathartic experience. It was a way for me to kind of work through whatever I was working through. You know, part of that book in effect wrote itself. I mean, I was able to bang it out very quickly because I knew what I wanted to say. And there were other chapters that took quite a long time to write and were very painful to do. And that's just the skeleton of the book. There was many more iterations that occurred after that.
But at its core, I wanted to communicate, I think, a message of hope to people and that time and life is precious. And that everyone gets a choice in terms of how you live it. And I hope, my hope is that people will live a little bit more in the moment. And we'll also get out and explore the public lands that we have in our country in the American West. And I think so many people take that for granted or push it off to tomorrow to say someday, you know, I'll make that trip. And sometimes someday never comes. And so I hope that people keep that in mind. And that's been the most uplifting part of the experience for me.
You know, I actually bumped into somebody at a restaurant the other day. And it was a mother and two children. And they had actually never been camping in their life. And this was the first time they had ever gone. And it was because of a treasure hunt. And I thought that was really cool. So I hope people do more things like that and try and seize the day.
His stated reason, purposes:
Grief: Justin shared how the hunt and his book-writing journey helped him navigate his grief, serving as a form of therapy. He hopes this resonates with others facing similar struggles.
A Message of Hope: At its core, Justin aims to instill hope. He draws inspiration from nature, as illustrated in BTME by his reflections on fishing: “Those fishing waters taught me more about life than any textbook could—about waiting, about hope, about the quiet thrill of possibility.”
Living in the Moment: Justin emphasizes the importance of savoring the present. He encourages everyone to avoid postponing adventures or outdoor explorations, as “someday” may never come. He observed how Brandon was “present in a way I was too consumed to notice, watching everything with quiet intention.”
Getting Outside / Nature: He cherishes stories like that of a mother and her children embarking on their first camping trip, encapsulating the joy of creating lasting memories in nature.
Conservation: During the Dillon Q&A, Justin became emotional discussing conservation, a significant motivation behind the hunt. During Tyler’s, interview Justin mentioned Annette Lilly Russ, highlighting her efforts to engage more women in fishing and environmental protection. Her legacy as the daughter of Bud Lilly—an avid conservationist and owner of a trout shop in West Yellowstone—underscores the importance of making a positive impact on our environment.
Now that we have purpose, let’s try interpret possible interpretations of the poem with these in mind. Surely, solving this poem takes obsession- it takes deep problem solving, rooted in logic.
In The Obsession’s Oath, Justin says, “Deep problem-solving sends a vibration through your skull, a low hum that builds and builds until your brain feels wired directly to the power line.”
How Poetic.
He’s hinting at, current.
CURRENT
The word "current" has several meanings depending on the context. In physics and electronics, it means the flow of electric charge. In geography, it refers to the steady, continuous flow of water in a river or ocean. In everyday speech, it means happening or existing right now.
Electric current is measured in amperes (amps). Most people know this measurement from everyday items like phone chargers, household circuit breakers, and car batteries. Hydrologically speaking, current is also measured. Hydrologists measure water current (flow velocity and discharge rate) to track water volume movement, manage supply limits, protect aquatic habitats, and prevent environmental damage. Knowing the speed and amount of moving water helps communities save finite freshwater resources. Aka. Water conservation.
In the western United States, the prior appropriation doctrine ("first in time, first in right") grants water rights to the earliest user during shortages. Artificial Intelligence data centers consume millions of gallons of water for cooling, raising concerns among local communities about depleting scarce water supplies and clashing with senior agricultural rights.
Justin says growing up that his friends called him “Running Water”. I’d like to point out that running water is not called current unless it’s in a stream or river, you don’t have “current” in your indoor plumbing, you have flow. So next time you see Justin indoors, feel free to call him Flow.
Flow is the general movement of a liquid, gas, or particles. Current is a specific scientific measurement of that movement, mostly used for electricity as the rate of charge moving past a point, or for a specific stream inside a larger body of water or air.
Let’s revisit Justin quote, “Deep problem-solving sends a vibration through your skull, a low hum that builds and builds until your brain feels wired directly to the power line.”
I submit to you, Justin is talking about current, more specifically a call of river.
In The Treasure Trail, Justin says:
The “Hole held this power over us, this marriage of water and memory where two boys became brothers, where we learned the language of current and call of river.”
Fly-fishing is the gateway to unlock this language of current and call of river.
Or as Justin put it, “Those fishing waters taught me more about life than any textbook could”.
If you’re like me and never grew up fishing or fish today, here is a link which might be insightful:
The traditional fishing proverb is "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime." Justin’s version is a modern, humorous twist on the classic proverb, “Give a man a fish and he’ll have dinner. Teach a man to fish and he’ll be late for dinner.”
Fishermen.
“Every fisherman carries a mental map marked with sacred waters—places where the mundane world dissolves at the riverbank, leaving only the eternal triangle of river, fish, and friendship. These spots become temples, their locations passed between trusted souls in whispers, if shared at all.” - The Treasure Trail
I feel like Indiana Jones looking to raid the Temple of Doom. Just playing, I don’t wear hats, but also- I don’t fish either. I’m shit out of luck.
When people fish, they participate in a web of life that includes not just the fish, but also the ecosystems they inhabit, the plants that support them, and the predators that rely on them.
Overfishing can disrupt this balance, affecting not just fish populations but entire aquatic ecosystems. Sustainable fishing practices help maintain this cycle, ensuring that both humans and nature thrive together. Or as Justin’s father, Dennis. put it, “It’s called peaceful coexistence”. It’s no surprise Justin declared himself the “Jane Goodall of raccoons”.
Fishing taught him about the aquatic ecosystem, but in a greater sense it taught him about life. For example, listen how he describes hiding from his brother Aidan:
“Like a patient predator, he slipped back into the shadows of our shared space, waiting.”
You see, understanding shadows is important to be a successful fisherman. I don’t fish…so here is a expert explaining it, if you care:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8V0Lmdg7hA&t=191s&pp=2AG_AZACAQ%3D%3D&ra=m
Justin describes himself as having a “usual talent for blending into the shadows”, a trait no doubt he learned from fishing. Listen how he describes Brandon - “constant shadow during those shifting times”. It’s a metaphor for closeness, proximity, but also protection. You see, fish hide in shadows for protection.
In fishing terminology, an edge is any boundary where two different environments, depths, or water conditions meet. Fish love edges because they act as travel highways and provide hiding spots to ambush prey. The fish are predators, but they are also the prey. They hide in shadows to remain unseen on those they prey, but also it provides protection from their predators.
I think I’ve gone long enough without getting into the poem per se, but I believe we are looking for Justin’s sacred fishing corner. The intersection of edges.
Fuck it, let’s talk poem:
“Can you find what lives in time,
Flowing through each measured rhyme?
Wisdom waits in shadowed sight—
For those who read these words just right.”
We are looking for what lives in time and our hints is “flowing through each measured rhyme.” Well, I covered earlier the difference between flow and current.
Justin’s job as the designer of this poem/puzzle is to put us on the map. To place a X on a map, to provide context and a starting point.
Where the fuck do you start? At the beginning, of course. No really, where does one start this search for Justin’s treasure? Sure, sure Justin answers this question on his website:
“So where do you start? How do you begin this treasure hunt? As you entered this website, you saw a map. Start there. The treasure is located somewhere in the American West, and MY MAP will help guide you.” Let me remind you of the earlier quote, with emphasis on, “…mental map marked with sacred waters”.
The map. That’s not very helpful, is it? It’s missing context it’s missing the who, what, where, and why of this treasure hunt. Which he says you can gain from watching Gold and Greed and reading his book. Boom. Done.
We are now staring at a poem that we’ve looked at before, we’ve assigned our own values, thoughts and interpretations and we need to determine a location. A pin on the map, a general area of interest. And we need to derive this from the first few lines/stanzas of the poem I assume.
As we know, Justin said the first “actionable clue” begins as “hope surges…”.
Justin’s challenge here is he needs to be able to “drop the pin on a map”. Some have suggested, well Justin can get creative and drop many pins on a map and you’ll have to do math understand a computer program or app and use triangulation etc. I believe Justin has a few choices right? But what makes sense. The triangulation method might be braking the “approachable” rule, it displaces the “equal footing” he’s trying to…maybe assuming to my own detriment, to achieve. I’m sure there’s other creative ways to guide or Shepard searchers to “an area” and get this thing started. To get you BOTG.
How precise can we get with a natural feature on a map, a kitchen size - of course. No, but really, what’s in nature that can be used as a reference point. A valley, a mountain, a river etc. they each present their own problems. Without comparing all of them, I would say that a river is the best choice. After all, that’s exactly what Forest Fenn used. Justin’s own search methodology was finding the intersection of two symbolic things, which was Sunlight Creek near Dead Indian Pass.
See, Forrest Fenn wanted to end his life at his favorite fishing hole. Fenn’s writing had an element of mortality, but on the other hand I view Justin’s poem more about life and living. That’s why it’s about being present, about hope.
LIFE BEGINS WHERE ROUTINE ENDS
As you’ve probably noticed, I’m somewhat reluctant to spell it all out, this has been an excise in organizing my thoughts, but also there’s hesitation in overshading. I’ve changed my mind on serving golden fish, you’ll just have to learn how to fish and cook - if you can stand the heat in the kitchen.
Here’s some quotes I didn’t get to:
"Nine Mile Hole," Brandon echoed, the name expanding between us like river mist, heavy with unspoken histories.”
“We were going through the motions of our eight-year routine, but something had shifted beneath the familiar rhythms. Like a river changing course”
a place where brotherly bonds had been forged in river water and where ancient secrets might still whisper from beneath the current’s endless song.
learning the water’s secrets. Even after Brandon left, I stayed on two more weeks, grid-searching with methodical desperation, as if our shared history might have left some secret marker only I could find.
Also:
https://realvertigo.medium.com/begin-it-where-warm-waters-halt-forrest-fenn-fbcf4deddd06
monitors - message
Myst
Red / blue
Indian Jones- temples
In Hinduism, River edge symbolizes a
boundary or threshold, highlighting the significance of location. It represents a visual element that may denote the transition between sacred and secular spaces, enhancing spiritual practices and rituals.
Just wanted to share something that I've been using for awhile that may assist others with their hunt.
The USGS has a downloadable text document that contains all of the official named geographic locations. This way you could theoretically search the document for any locations named "bear", or whatever search criteria you want. You will want to download the file called DomesticNames, and once that is done, there will be a sub folder for each individual state that you can search. The formatting of the document is trash, but the information itself is very useful.
https://www.usgs.gov/us-board-on-geographic-names/download-gnis-data
The website is slow, so you will need to bear with it. I'm hilarious.....
All the questions being asked at the SS and interviews..I bet the question he is surprised hadn't been asked, if there is a river or water in the hunt! I mean how has this not been asked lol
Did he say anything about numbers, except for 42? Or how to apply those numbers? I remember he said something about adding..but now what lmao
I started my obsession this week, I’ve been listening and reading and searching non stop.I found a solution but I’ll never be able to go and have BOTG, I just started my family. Figured I’d share my solution and see what everyone thinks, just want to be a part of the fun. All criticism welcome! So glad to hear the cabin survived today from Justin!
Can you find what lives in time?—Gracies grail, “somehow catch time in a net of collected things”- Crystal park
Flowing through each measured rhyme— Crystal park “learn to hear and understand the rhythm of the land”
Wisdom waits in shadowed sight—in the morning wisdom is in the shadow of pioneer and comet mountain, meaning treasure is on cardinal east of comet mountain.
As hope surges clear and bright—as the sunrises we are filled with the hope and anticipation of hunting for treasure, and the west side is illuminated is being illuminated, you can begin your trek to the east.
Waters silent flight-GH creek
Round the bend and past the hole— literally around the bend of private property and comet mountain which is actually the hole from TT and the picture in the book. Can also use the 114 to show a window or “vantage point (from grandpa fitzwallace memoir) that can see the treasure.
I wait for you to cast your pole— time to use compass (both of them, actual and metaphorical) and other tools instead of just following directions. A shift from Fenn treasure poem to Justin treasure poem strategy. The “I” to me is the treasure speaking to us. I like this idea as it keeps the solve simple like thrill of the chase, but this half has a little more flair and Justin’s personal touch on an Indiana Jones kind of solve.
In ursa east his realm awaits— “his” being grandpa fitzwater. Ursa being Polaris, and this statement hints and is an introduction part to the metaphorical compass solve of the solution, and his (grandpa fitzwater) realm is to the east of his point.
His bride stands guard at ancient gates- the bride is the metaphorical compass and or sawtooth lake. the ancient gates are comet and saddleback mountain.
Her foot of three at twenty degree— three lakes there, where 20 degrees is found between their own foots, and they are the feet of sawtooth lake. You should be standing at the location there this works using the protractor.
Return her face to find the place-time to use metaphorical compass, BOTG required from here on. Technical clue find “the key to one direction lies in another”, the rest of the poem is using the metaphorical compass solve.
That being said. I like elk horn creek trail for easy access point with injured tibia. I left out my solve for the metaphorical compass, the website has useful information since it was updated. With positions for grandpa, dad, Tucker, and Brandon.
Any thoughts?? I’d love to participate in the hunt from afar! This solve feels simple, and points to a solution that can be solved in several different ways. Hope everyone is having a blast. If this leads you to the treasure throw me a bone lol and make a treasure to hide again!
For the entirety of the hunt, Justin has been hesitant to disclose if the treasure is buried or not. I understand his ai concerns, however a little clarity may be helpful to all of us. Below is an analysis of statements/clues either for or against.
Metal detecting
In the book and documentary, multiple references or stories involved metal detecting. He’s spent thousands of hours doing it, wrote about finds in the book, also probably found the meteor doing so.
Shovel
The illustration on page 168 was always so striking. A shovel the size of a page seems very intentional. Too large and prominent not to be considered.
Manipulation
“Something will need to be manipulated in order for the treasure to be visible”. The treasure isn’t in sight until we so something like manipulate the ground with a shovel, or manipulate the lid of a airtight container, etc. heavily implies burial, entombment, or other vigorous concealment.
Tyler
Someone whose been a life long friend, would’ve known about the book, locations, and creator much before we would. His question from X interview is striking “why did you bury something in the ground for others to find”. Seems like a slip up of someone with intimate knowledge.
Recognizable
Justin maintains that the container is immediately recognizable. Meaning we will know as soon as we see it. That statement carries much less weight if buried, of course we’re going to recognize something we had to unearth. Almost seems like something we stumble across.
Logistics
Justin had to know that people would be flying in to search on occasion. Flying with a metal detector and shovel would be quite the trip through tsa. Given that the poem doesn’t imply burial, would it be fair to the fliers if it was buried? Flying 2000 miles and not having the proper tools would be a lovely situation I’m sure.
Poem stands alone
That statement is huge. If it holds true, the treasure cannot be buried. The only reference one could try to say works is “cast your pole” but you would need the book to see the reference to “metal pole” referring to metal detectors. I understand the concerns with AI, but I think knowing if it’s buried or not is absolutely vital for successful retrieval. You’d could get right to where it’s at, but without knowing you needed to bring a shovel and metal detector, you wouldn’t be able to find it.
Conclusion
If it is indeed buried, Tyler knew early and that wouldn’t be cool if he’s searching. It’s a huge advantage to have that piece of information. It also would bring into question the validity of the statement “the poem can stand alone”. There are no clues referring to burial or concealment in the poem. Honestly anything other than it being right out in the open, would invalidate that statement. It wouldn’t really be fair to the people who solve everything from the poem, and end up empty handed because the didn’t bring the necessary equipment.
I’d love to hear your thoughts and feedback if you have any input. What side do you lean towards?
In terms of parsing JPs words he says you don’t need any prior knowledge of the FF hunt, but the documentary is obviously very full of FF stuff. And it’s mentioned in his book on various ways but maybe most notably when meeting him. So while maybe no prior knowledge was necessary… there’s a great deal of FF things that could come into play with how we read or interpret things. Hole could be one of them.
I’ve long thought JP wants this to be a massive change from the FF hunt and show how things can or should be done to prevent all the “bad” things in the FF one. But I maybe over emphasized that as it relates to the poem or clues. Justin does continually call 9MH his launching point and FF his launching point.
Just that basically!
First and foremost, my thoughts are with everyone affected by these fires, especially the residents facing uncertainty and the firefighters and emergency personnel working on the ground. That seriousness is exactly why accuracy matters.
And after watching today’s exchange unfold, I think this has become a pretty clear example of a larger problem in this community.
Ema reported secondhand information that “Maverick is a loss” and “Elkhorn is a loss.”
Those words have an obvious meaning to most people reading them during an active wildfire: those locations have been lost to the fire.
K questioned that characterization and made a very reasonable distinction. If what was actually meant was that those locations were “a loss for fire personnel” because crews had been pulled off the sites, that’s materially different from saying:
“Maverick is a loss. Elkhorn is a loss.”
One describes firefighting resources being withdrawn. The other sounds like the locations burned.
K’s response was hardly some vicious attack:
“‘Are a loss’ makes it sound like the fire burned through there and they are gone. Just be precise if you’re going to attempt to help in these situations. Hype isn’t helpful.”
That was the off-ramp.
“Point taken. I should have been more precise. Sorry for the confusion.”
Done.
Instead, somehow K became the problem.
Ema repeatedly defended the information as something she was simply passing along, characterized the questioning as “policing” the thread and eventually said she would stop providing additional information because of K’s reaction.
Then Jam jumped in, called K’s responses “the troubling ones,” mocked her as some kind of “hero of information protection,” and suggested her criticism was causing people on the ground to stop sharing information.
And now we have perhaps the most important admission of the entire exchange.
Jam subsequently said:
“We posted information straight copy and paste from someone in the area… they messed up… it happens.”
Exactly.
It happens
.
That could have been the end of this entire situation.
Nobody expects Ema, Jam or their sources to have perfect real-time information during a rapidly changing wildfire. Sources can misunderstand things. Conditions change. People communicate poorly.
The mistake isn’t what bothers me.
The response to the mistake does.
Once Jam acknowledged that the source “messed up,” why was K unreasonable for questioning information that turned out to need clarification?
Why was her criticism deleted?
Why was she blamed for sources supposedly withholding future updates?
Why did asking for accuracy become something Jam said “we won’t tolerate”?
That’s where this stops being about a wildfire update and becomes another conversation about accountability and how criticism is handled in this community.
There is also an uncomfortable moderation issue here.
According to the screenshots, K objected that her response had been deleted while Jam’s critical response remained. Jam’s position was that he wasn’t allowing posts that discouraged people from providing updates.
But questioning the accuracy of an update isn’t the same thing as discouraging updates.
Good information should be encouraged. So should correcting bad or ambiguous information. Those principles aren’t in conflict.
And Jam eventually said something else that I think deserves attention:
“We run our site how we run our site. I think it is a damn good site. If people don’t like it honestly I don’t care anymore.”
That’s certainly their prerogative.
But THWU isn’t operating in a vacuum anymore.
Ema and Jam have become prominent figures in this community. They’ve organized Seekers Summit, conducted interviews, disseminated information to hunters and developed a significant working relationship with Justin Posey and the BTME ecosystem.
With increased influence comes increased scrutiny.
You don’t get to position yourself as a trusted source of community information and then tell people they “need to not worry about what people post” when they question whether that information is accurate.
And I’m seeing the same broader pattern repeatedly:
Criticism becomes “negativity.”
Questions become “attacks.”
Requests for accuracy become “policing.”
Requests for accountability become “entitlement.”
Then the conversation moves away from the substance of the criticism and toward the supposed attitude, motives or behavior of whoever raised it.
That’s backwards.
Amelda summed it up perfectly: K’s deleted comment was reasonable, and the response could simply have been:
“Point taken. We will do better.”
That’s accountability.
Accountability isn’t never making mistakes. It’s being able to acknowledge one without needing to discredit the person who pointed it out.
Nobody needed to be the villain here.
Nobody needed to be banned, silenced, blamed or portrayed as ruining the flow of information.
Someone questioned an alarming secondhand report.
The source was later acknowledged to have “messed up.”
That means questioning it was warranted.
So maybe instead of asking why K was being “negative,” we should be asking a much simpler question:
When did asking people to get the information right become the greater offense than getting the information wrong?
Because in a treasure-hunting community built entirely around scrutinizing information, challenging assumptions and figuring out what words actually mean, punishing people for doing exactly that seems particularly ironic.
This exchange really gets to the heart of an issue I think people have been dancing around. Justin was asked a very straightforward question: Is this hunt curated, or is it 100% self-contained and solvable?
His answer?
“A curated experience can still be fully solvable. A cookbook is curated. The recipes still work.”
Sure. But a cookbook also gives everybody the same cookbook.
That’s where this analogy starts falling apart.
We’re not talking about whether Justin carefully selected stories, clues, illustrations, interviews, and experiences to create a treasure hunt. Obviously he did. The question is how much information exists outside the supposedly self-contained puzzle, who has access to it, and how much control the creator continues to exercise over that information after launch.
Because look at everything that has happened around this hunt. We had the Summit, where hunters heard hours of panels, interviews, Q&A, and comments from people directly involved with the book. Months later, much of that material still hasn’t been released publicly. Some hunters were physically there and heard it. Others didn’t. Even something as seemingly mundane as Matt DeMoss discussing the different iterations of the book and how certain stories developed can potentially change how somebody evaluates chapters and clues. That matters in a treasure hunt.
Then there’s the private Discord ecosystem and all the controversy surrounding what Justin has or hasn’t discussed with individual hunters or groups. Whether every allegation floating around is true is almost beside the larger point: the creator having private, hunt-related conversations with active hunters creates an information problem all by itself.
And then we learned more about Tucker. Months of training, facial recognition, Justin’s own search methodology, Yellowstone conclusions, behind-the-scenes information—all of this gradually comes out after the hunt has already been underway.
That is why “curated” deserves more scrutiny than a cute cookbook analogy.
A treasure hunt can absolutely be curated before release and still be fair. Write the book. Construct the clues. Edit it. Test it. Publish it. Then everybody gets the same starting gun.
But when the curator remains an active participant in the ecosystem—answering questions, doing interviews, attending private conversations, deciding what supplemental information gets released, when it gets released, and potentially providing context that isn’t equally available to everyone—then curation starts looking a lot more like information management.
And that’s the distinction that matters.
Nobody is saying a curated puzzle is inherently unsolvable. The question is whether BTME is genuinely self-contained, meaning someone discovering this hunt tomorrow with nothing but the publicly available materials has fundamentally the same information necessary to solve it as somebody who has been inside this community, attended the Summit, heard unreleased discussions, or had access to private conversations.
If the answer is yes, great.
Release everything and let the cookbook speak for itself.