Hey everyone,

Made this as a comment but thought it deserved a post.

I’m probably a bit older than the average demographic here (early 40s), but I feel compelled to share my story because I constantly see this massive, dangerous myth being pushed online. You’ve all heard the narrative from the "traditional" and "manosphere" podcasters: “Just find a nice, pure, religious girl with a low body count, marry her young, and you’ll live happily ever after.”

I am here to tell you that I followed that exact script to a T. It still crumbled through my fingers.

My ex-wife isn't a "good woman," for certain. But she isn't bad either. She's real.

As u/ppchampagne put it: "there are just real women. And real women will be your greatest teachers."

The "Perfect" Beginning

I got married in my early 20s. I was young, religious, naïve, and fell hard for the first woman who paid any attention to me in college. On our wedding night, we were both completely inexperienced. Literal virgins. No "baggage," no past partners. Total purity.

We stayed together for over a decade and had kids. For the first few years, I thought I was the luckiest guy alive. I did everything by the book.

The Shift

Then, the marriage blew up in a way I never saw coming after the birth of our daughter. It started with the classic signs.

The main one was the fucking phone. It started coming to the dinner table—something we never used to do—and whenever she set it down in my presence, it was always face down. Sure enough, I found out she had downloaded dating apps and was talking to other men behind my back.

Shortly after, she dropped the bomb: she wanted to open the marriage.

>

I tried everything to save my family. I begged for therapy. She refused. I told her, "Darling, I love you. Out of all the women I knew in college, I chose you. What do you need from me to make this work?"

Her response? "I need you to open the marriage."

The Wake-Up Call

Completely lost, I went to my mother—a devout Roman Catholic. When I told her everything, her answer was instant: "Divorce her."

I literally cried. "But mom, what about the kids?"

My mother sighed through the phone and said, "You can deal with that later. Take what is left of your self-respect and get out of there. And stop crying for her! You'll need your tears for other things."

So, I filed.

Whenever I see these modern social conservatives telling young men that a woman's past or her religious upbringing is a bulletproof shield against heartbreak, I absolutely wince. There is no magical "low body count" cheat code to guarantee a successful relationship. People change. FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) can hit a woman who felt she "missed out" on her youth just as hard as anyone else. There are no fairy-tale archetypes; there are only real women with complex, evolving, and sometimes destructive human desires.

Where We Are Now

Fast forward to a few months ago. We were at one of our kids' band recitals, grabbing coffee in the lobby. Out of nowhere, she asked me, "How's your dating life?"

Truth is, I don’t really date anymore. After the divorce, I had my share of girlfriends, one-night stands, and flings, but over the last decade, I’ve settled into my solitude. I love living alone. I love my routines, going to the gym whenever I want, and traveling solo when I don't have the kids (especially to Amsterdam and Berlin). For the first time in my life, I'm not putting out a woman's fires. I am finally at peace.

So I just shrugged and said, "Oh, here and there."

Her eyes welled up. She explained to me that she was dating a guy she had met online, and he was a recent divorced dude. But after expressing a wish to commit to this man, my ex-wife was put down: he didn't want to commit to a woman with kids already and quite honestly, he figured their relationship was a "rebound thing."

"I'm just so lonely. No one really wants to date a divorced mom," she sniffed, and she reached out and grabbed my hand.

For a second, a part of me felt genuine sympathy. This was the woman who bore my children. I could almost feel myself slipping, almost forgiving the betrayal. But then the voice of my late mother echoed in my brain: Take what is left of your self-respect...

I gently took her hand out of mine, patted her shoulder, and said: "You chose your path." And I left it at that.

TL;DR

Stop letting podcasters convince you that a woman's lack of dating history is a guarantee of her loyalty or future happiness. Green flags can turn red, "devout" signs can fade, and the script you're being sold is a lie. Focus on things where you can receive a net return for your investment: hobbies, travel, cultivating knowledge, gathering your strength in fitness. Eventually, at my age, you start to treat women like children with mammary glands. They're best seen and not heard.

>For there is nothing original in her – neither inside nor out – which could not be replaced.
Why are men so afraid to face the truth?”
– Esther Vilar, The Manipulated Man (1971)

These days, when I tune-in to conversations about dating culture, I'm almost exclusively paying attention to what women are communicating to other women – the "femosphere." Most of their thoughts and opinions are straight-up garbage, but there's one conversation taking place among some that's gold. It's what they often refer to as "de-centering men." A while back, those conversations didn't make much sense to me, but they do now. Those conversations show that women are miles ahead of men, as it relates to dating and relationships – realizing they don't need them.

Aside from some junk "news" articles and a few more solid ones from the mainstream, most of those conversations take place on social media. It's worth noting that mainstream sources almost exclusively focus on women's criticisms about dating and relationships – reflecting and reinforcing their social media conversations. In contrast, the mainstream rarely touches men's criticisms, mostly doing so to criticize men and to promote the myth of the "male loneliness epidemic," for example. So the mainstream promotes single women as empowered and in control, while mostly casting single men as a problem. For examples, see the posts linked below.

Men are “struggling,” and this writer doesn’t have any clue why

Iliza, there’s “an anger toward” men in this country (video)

America does not have a crisis of bitter, single young men

So-called "researchers" and "journalists" attempting to reclassify more single men as incels

Single women are enjoying freedom, funds, and flings!

I'm not trying to convince you. They are. (and links on that post)

I could link more, but you get the idea. "all woman good. woman not never do no wrong. man bad have problem! man need change!"

Men need to change. That much is correct in my opinion, but not in the ways they insist.

"man bad have problem!" is the narrative this sub was started to counter. "Men are disappointing" (already linked). Women are essentially flawless, according to the mainstream. That's also why so much manosphere content is highly critical of women, because men rarely perceive criticisms of women from the mainstream. And we know better. So single men have a sense that their society is bullshitting them in a way. The manosphere is correcting (maybe over-correcting) that to relieve a kind of indignation over how women are rarely sufficiently criticized. But that's where these conversations begin and end. Overall, they don't make any progress beyond that point.

What much of the femosphere does correctly to advance is promote the reality that relationships are completely superfluous, optional, unnecessary. That's where men's conversations are horrendously backwards. If anything, men are becoming more and more focused on, attached to the idea of, and desirous of relationships with women (as they become relatively scarcer).

Of course, there are single men, who (from experience) know better. In general, however, single men express what they believe is a need for "genuine" relationships and affection from women. They often want one special woman to be their Angel Mommy Goddess for life.

• Why should they ever expect any of that from any woman? Really, what’s the basis of that expectation?

It's easier for women to detach, disconnect, and discard the idea that they need relationships and families, because the mainstream regularly encourages women choosing to remain single. In contrast, the mainstream almost always suggests or outright claims that there's something wrong with single men. There must be something wrong with them if they’re single, because we know they want sex, and they’ve been trained to pursue relationships with women and measure their value according to those. So they must be undesirable failures. And if you're smart, you'll realize that those two narratives about single men and single women – they don't add up. Encourage perpetually single women, but there must be something wrong with perpetually single men…

Men also propagate that idea among themselves. The core of that idea is the belief that somehow a man's value in life is determined by his relationships with women. Without one or more women to bless or save him, a man is a problem. That's the Religion of Woman we are taught.

Far too many men believe that dating and mating opportunities are directly tied to the value of their lives. They believe that casual sex opportunities, in particular, must be earned – not by "leading with one's wallet," but through who they are as a person, their value as a man. The same doesn't apply to women. Women need not do anything or be anyone to "earn sex." In general, they simply receive offers because men (as a whole) are always indiscriminately willing, as a function of their physiology. So women correctly don't perceive the value of their lives as tied to sex. And it seems that growing numbers of single women are realizing that their value isn't tied to relationships, marriages, or families.

They're free to determine their own lives.

Men, too, are also free.

But men are desperately lagging behind in that realization because of their social conditioning – part of which comes across in that contrast in how the mainstream covers single men, compared to single women. So many single men feel that they have to prove something to themselves, their peer groups, families, society, etc. They focus on doing so ultimately through women's vaginas. Their mission is flawed from the start. And they will fail.

Some men desire families without even having a clear reason as to why. They have more maternal instinct than many single, childless women. Again, I'd argue that's the result of social conditioning. These men want to achieve the status of father, without putting any thought into the reality of the process of raising children with a woman. They want to signal to society that a woman deemed them "worthy," they're safe, and that they're contributing to the next generation of society.

For American Millennials and Zoomers who take it for granted that they'll get married and have a family someday

Some men desire all kinds of casual sex – not only because of their physiological motivations, but even more-so to "prove" to themselves that they have "value." And these same men will recognize just how superficial is the pursuit of casual sex. They'll acknowledge that appearance plays a significant role in that chase. Still, somehow the lack of casual sex they want means their life has no value to them.

They refuse to "lead with their wallets," which clearly do have the value they spend their time and energy acquiring. No, they must transform themselves and learn how to manipulate women psychologically with "game," so that women "choose me for me...," they say. They'll learn the “game” and claim it's a skill, but the only way they can profit from that "skill" is to teach others. Wouldn't it make more sense to acquire skills that make money and simply pay for it? To each their own – safely, ethically, legally, logically, intelligently.

But that doesn’t work, because they don't believe their own lives have value until a sanctimonious, dignified woman tells them so – supposedly unprompted by their wallet. Again, it's the Religion of Woman. They believe they have to prove their life is "worthy" of women and sex. They never stop to think and reason – to realize they have nothing to prove to anyone. They remain faithful to their religion, to Woman.

By and large, men's conversations about dating and relationships are mostly pathetic. They're stuck, still based on a set of ideas and beliefs they've never stopped to question and think and reason through. Some will go as far as to say those beliefs are "natural," even though they're very clearly cultural, as much as they may be based on what is natural – sex. 

From what I gather, single women have much greater interest in abandoning the idea of relationships. It's hard to tell just how many, really. There's clearly bias in mainstream reporting on the topic, and social media doesn't always reflect reality well.

Either way, single men need to move on from their social conditioning around women and relationships, just as it appears that so many single women are electing to do. In my opinion, single men more than women, have far more to gain in stripping out their social conditioning and moving on from the idea of relationships.

If you want to participate in hook-up culture, running up your partner count, risking unplanned pregnancies and STDs, increasing your risk of divorce, and damaging your ability to pair-bond? The left will say do it, because it's your sexual freedom and no man has a right to judge you. If you want to change your gender, the left will say you can do that too, because your sexual autonomy overrides any other concerns, including medical considerations like infertility. The same goes for open relationships, swingers, legal sex work, etc. Everything revolves around sexual freedom and personal autonomy.

But if a man says he wants to marry a virgin or a woman with a low body count, then suddenly these considerations no longer apply. Suddenly the man is called the i-word, labelled misogynistic, backward, or a "fundy" if he's religious, and accused of being judgmental. Suddenly, his sexual freedom doesn't matter one bit, and often this judgement is applied even if he is a virgin or has a low body count himself.

All while women are celebrated for having high standards that they themselves cannot meet, and in some cases only apply to a very small percentage of the male population (eg. Age 25-40, must be 6 foot plus, earn 250k a year, and have never been married with no children from prior relationships). But if a man simply wants to find a virtuous woman who hasn't participated in hookup culture, which has been the standard for millennia in almost every culture, that is suddenly unacceptable to them. The hypocrisy is jarring.

Howdy ya'll,

My last post got me thinking about dating apps. They are the prevalent way of meeting women nowadays. Back when I was on them, alongside the usual corporate HR ducktalk and endless travel pics, I noticed a massive influx of a specific archetype: the woman looking for a "God-fearing man."

After speaking to a few of my friends I have noticed that it’s everywhere now—both on the apps and out in the wild.

For context, I grew up religious (Traditional Roman Catholic) when I was younger, so I know the language and the culture. But over time, my worldview shifted, and today I’m pretty much a materialist seeing religion from the lens a la Feuerbach: religion is a projection of ideas that we find within ourselves. I look at things through a practical, grounded lens. And looking at this trend through that lens, the math just isn't mathing. It got me thinking about the reality of what's actually happening in the modern US dating scene. It also got me thinking for our younglings on this esteemed subreddit that perhaps using church as a means to find a spouse just ain't gonna cut the mustard.

1. The Church Demographics Dilemma

The most obvious question is: If they want a devout, church-going man so badly, why aren't they finding him at church?

Religious communities are literally built around shared values and community. But if you look at actual demographics, modern church attendance is heavily skewed. The guys who are there are either already married, completely checked out, or don't meet the hyper-specific, checklist-heavy standards these women have cultivated online. So, they export their demands to the mainstream apps, hoping to convert or capture a guy who fits the bill.

2. Religion as a Tool, Not a Lifestyle

From a secular, practical standpoint, what I’ve observed time and time again is that "faith" is frequently used as a tool rather than a genuine lifestyle.

• They want the traditional benefits of a "God-fearing man"—someone who provides, protects, works himself to the bone, and stays strictly loyal.
• But they rarely want to offer the traditional reciprocity that historically goes along with it -- i.e. being a wife.

It feels less like a shared spiritual journey and more like a vetting strategy to find a guy who is easily agreeable, compliant, and bound by a moral code that keeps him locked down. It’s a utility strategy masked as piety. Nietzsche I suppose would have a field day with this.

3. The "Past Lifestyle" Reset

Let’s be real about another pattern in the wild: the sudden religious pivot. You see profiles of women who clearly spent their 20s living the modern, fast-paced lifestyle, only to suddenly find religion exactly when they decide it's time to settle down. Suddenly, they need a "provider who fears God." Coming from my perspective, it feels less like spiritual enlightenment and more like a tactical pivot because the lifestyle they chased for a decade didn't produce husband material.

Bottom Line

The western dating market is so depleted of genuine connection that even "religion" has been commodified. They want a guy with traditional, strict expectations of himself, but modern expectations of them.

Anyone else noticing this surge of secular-acting women demanding hyper-religious men on the apps lately? How are you guys navigating it?

Many men don’t see themselves living a decent life without receiving “genuine” affection, attraction, whatever from women. For those men who’ve never had any women even hint at any interest in them, okay, you guys who experience that (as a problem) have my sympathies. The real problem there is that it has to be so much more difficult for you to realize you’re not missing out on anything special. It’s like, how could you know?

Now, the way things are on social media these days, it’s like every single man in his 20s is instilling into themselves and others the idea that “genuine” affection, attraction, whatever from women is the peak of life for a man. And this is supposed to be achieved through a man’s physical appearance. Y’all trippin', but I’m not even gonna try to reason that out of you (them), because it’s like a religion. Good luck trying to get someone to give up their religion through logical reasoning.

All I can really say is, you (guys in your 20s) are going to age out of that mindset eventually. That mindset is largely a product of our current era – not something that men develop naturally. Hence, why looksmaxxing is probably at least close to being a household idea now vs in previous decades. That emphasis on appearance comes directly from dating apps and social media in a crappy dating market.

To be clear, I have nothing against some degree of looksmaxxing. I definitely looksmaxxed in my early 20s, although we didn’t call it that back in my day. We called it “working out,” for example – what the younger guys today call “gymmaxxing.” And yes, all my “looksmaxxing” paid off.

Then, I grew up and realized that getting women to “like me” enough to open box for me wasn’t something I needed to be a man. That didn’t make me a man. It didn’t make me a “good” man. It didn’t make me special or “validate” me or any of that. Some men never stop to think and realize all that, but I did. Thank, God. Otherwise, I’d still be chasing women and working like a slave to get whatever approval from them.

Now, I’m not gonna lie. At least one of the more invasive lookmaxxes I acquired puts a smile on my face when I look in the mirror. And today, that’s completely independent from any evaluation of how other people might view me. That’s just me looking in the mirror, seeing the reflection of how bad I am. I couldn’t give one single nut about what other people think about my appearance. Do you realize how liberating that is?! The only thing I care about is what I think. And if I like myself, I’m good.

Searching around social media today, I feel bad for the younger men – guys in their 20s. I’m pretty sure the “baby black pill” (as I call it) could have eaten me alive along with them if I were in my early or mid-20s today. It’s that bad. I’ve sampled content from younger guys all over social media on this topic. They think they have it all figured out, down to a science. And they’re using what they believe is that “science” to delay their maturation into men.

Sighs…

My guys, personally, I could not be a man if I cared what women think about me.

_

From the Champagne Room

Your life is greater than whatever women might think about you

The “looksmaxxing” obsession

Do women like you yet? (short video post)

Single men, you're gonna be alright

My brothers, the epiphany is waiting for you

What is it that men truly desire from women and why?