Most lore classes, for better or worse, have significant accomplishments. Mages played a role in the well of eternity, warriors are capable of toppling giants (fel reavers, onyxua, etc), and even monks single-handedly liberated Pandaria from a race so powerful that it took both factions to defeat them.

Aside from killing Llane, what have rogues actually ever done? Sure, they stopped another faction war in Legion (more like delayed, tbh), but have they ever actually made as much of a ripple in the story even comparably to other classes?

This post in some degre was on r/Wow but i think it would be more suitable, i changed some things and maybe you could talk with me how it could go farward. So.... last week i read warcraft forum and something broke in me. I love Warcraft even now but i just can't understand lore and what are they doing. There are many bad thing that they did over the years (for me) from Old God in BFA, Peace in same expansion to Shadowlands and whatever they are doing right now. There are some good options to save Lore now and "Launch it for next 20 years" like:

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1. Go for Faction Cold war - For me we should have some kind of Cold War. Show us that some characters do not like each other and some factions still hold grudges against each other like: Humans still do not like orcs, Dreanai should have grudge against orcs. But also i woukd love to see Taurens and Night elfs in Thunderbluff and Belameth. I think it would show that this world is more alive.

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2. Characters should be killed - and i am not talking about new characters. I am talking about old veterans amd not in way 1 death every 2 expansions but whole cast in one expansion: Khadghar should be dead by now, Velen should die in standoff by voidwell and then Jaina, Thrall, Turalyon, Aleria, Veresa, Genn, Malfurion, Tyrande. They should die so we are really shocked our beloved characters are Dead

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3. New Leaders should be born - After this much death and destruction, there should be a path. New Leaders with new motives and with new idea for their races. Maybe Dranei Leader who is still mad at Orcs for driving them off Draenor. Or maybe Dwarf that is not happy with Moira's son and he or she will think that he is to soft for ruling.

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4. Show us that time have passed - 14 years in game time and i think that only one that grew old in this time is Anduin. Why we do not see some of new characters were born and hardend by living on planet where once a year something tries to destroy/take it for them.

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5. ROMANCE SHOULDN'T BE DEAD - With new/old characters there should be more Romance betwen them. I know war time is not perfect but in our world people still married in times of crisis. Show us more of this and for characters to find they love even in dark times

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6. Use more - We have whole Light Crazed Dranei Army in Alternative Draenor why not use them. Make Turalyon mad with Light again, let him kill Aleria in madnes and let him summon whole army of crazy fanatics. Use Scarlet Crusade who still think that Turalyon is better fited to be a King and start Light Crusade. MAKE ALLIANCE BAD GUYS FOR ONCE, WHY ONLY HORDE PLAYERS ARE GIVEN OPTION TO MAKE CHECKLIST OUT OF WARCRIMES. (I AM ALLIANCE PLAYER FOR LIFE and for once i want to look like guy from meme)

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What you all think about my long post? Do you have other ideas? I really hope that someone in Bllizard could see this and really think that how this story could go?

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(Most of my points are similar but some changes are here and there.)

Just a little pet theory on where I think Blizzard is going. I have a feeling that both the powers of Death and Order have already fallen to an outside force.

My though process is fairly simple but basically The idea is that Amanthul is the artificial leader of Order. Created by this 7th force. The idea that the Titans ordered the realm of death feels off. but what if the realm of Death was ordered by the same people who essentially Ordered Amanthul and therefore the titans as a whole.

Additionally it would be interesting if Denathrius knew this, and why he supported the jailer. I think the next time we meet Denathrius will not be as an enemy.

This race is one of my favorites, in Warcraft III (where it makes the Night Elf faction feel truly unique), in Warhammer Fantasy, and in The Lord of the Rings (which features one of the most epic scenes) - although they feel much more brutal and a force of nature in itself when provoked than Warcraft Ancients.

But out of all three settings, it feels like they received the least development in Warcraft. If you look at the wiki, they barely have more than a paragraph of lore. Why is there so little information about them?

Given the direction the current lore seems to be heading, and considering how closely connected they are to Azeroth itself, they could easily become one of the centerpieces for exploring Azeroth's ancient "foundational" races, those that predate both the Old Gods and the Titans.

Besides, Ancient Treemen are cool as hell. They complement Night Elves but they also could be much more than that.

So, trying to check online the order in which the novels should be read, and there seems to be 2 prevalent orders in which they should be read: Story Handle (found on another Reddit post) or Chronological (according to some lists/Claude)

Which order would you recommend reading all the books in?

I feel like the Chronological order would make more sense in the sense of following the story properly, no? I dont understand why Dawn of the Aspects is so late in the first list.

Thanks! ♥️

Story Handle Order

• Rise of the Horde by Christie Golden
• The Last Guardian by Jeff Grubb
• Tides of Darkness by Aaron Rosenburg
• Beyond the Dark Portal by Christie Golden & Aaron Rosenburg
• Day of the Dragon by Richard A. Knaak
• War of the Ancients: The Well of Eternity by Richard A. Knaak
• War of the Ancients: The Demon Soul by Richard A. Knaak
• War of the Ancients: The Sundering by Richard A. Knaak
• Lord of the Clans by Christie Golden
• Of Blood and Honor by Chris Metzen
• Arthas: Rise of the Lich King by Christie Golden
• Illidan by William King
• Cycle of Hatred by Keith DeCandido
• Night of The Dragon by Richard A. Knaak
• Stormrage by Richard A. Knaak
• The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm by Christie Golden
• Wolfheart by Richard A Knaak
• Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects by Christie Golden
• Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War by Christie Golden
• Dawn of the Aspects by Richard A. Knaak
• Vol’Jin: Shadows of the Horde by Michael A. Stackpole
• War Crimes by Christie Golden
• Before The Storm by Christie Golden
• Shadows Rising by Madeleine Roux
• Sylvanas by Christie Golden
• War of the Scaleborn by Courtney Alameda
• Blood Ties by Christie Golden

======================

Story Chronological Order

ERA: ANCIENT HISTORY / PRE-WARCRAFT

1. Dawn of the Aspects – Part 1 (Knaak)

2. Dawn of the Aspects – Part 2 (Knaak)

3. Dawn of the Aspects – Part 3 (Knaak)

4. Dawn of the Aspects – Part 4 (Knaak)

5. Dawn of the Aspects – Part 5 (Knaak)

6. War of the Ancients: The Well of Eternity (Knaak)

7. War of the Ancients: The Demon Soul (Knaak)

8. War of the Ancients: The Sundering (Knaak)

ERA: WAR OF THE SCALEBORN (Dragon Isles, ancient past)

9. War of the Scaleborn (Alameda)

ERA: FIRST WAR / RISE OF THE HORDE

10. Rise of the Horde (Golden)

11. The Last Guardian (Grubb)

ERA: SECOND WAR

12. Tides of Darkness (Rosenberg)

13. Day of the Dragon (Knaak)

14. Beyond the Dark Portal (Golden & Rosenberg)

ERA: INTERLUDE / THIRD WAR PRELUDE

15. Lord of the Clans (Golden)

16. Of Blood and Honor (Metzen)

17. Arthas: Rise of the Lich King (Golden)

18. Illidan (William King)

ERA: BURNING CRUSADE TIMEFRAME

19. Cycle of Hatred (DeCandido)

20. Night of the Dragon (Knaak)

ERA: WRATH OF THE LICH KING

21. Stormrage (Knaak)

ERA: CATACLYSM

22. The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm (Golden)

23. Wolfheart (Knaak)

24. Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects (Golden)

ERA: MISTS OF PANDARIA / WARLORDS

25. Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War (Golden)

26. Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde (Stackpole)

27. War Crimes (Golden)

ERA: LEGION / BATTLE FOR AZEROTH

28. Before the Storm (Golden)

ERA: BATTLE FOR AZEROTH / SHADOWLANDS

29. Shadows Rising (Roux)

30. Sylvanas (Golden)

ERA: THE WAR WITHIN / MIDNIGHT PREQUEL

31. Blood Ties (Golden, November 2025)

Been wondering this for a while, we've explored a huge amount of planets but the two closest celestial bodies are still foreign to us, especially since they're kind of important in Night Elf & Tauren culture

Maybe I'm missing something, but shouldn't every "true believer" of the light want to be as close to the light as possible? Which is what lightforging does?

I'm also surprised no human paladins have tried to follow Turalyons footsteps and become lightforged as well. Do you think the lightforged draenei are gatekeeping the whole thing?

Halfbreed races exist in the warcraft franchise, yet their presence doesn't feel strong, other than the Mak'nathal in TBC and the Arathi in TWW, I don't remember other strong presence for halfbreed races, yet every new expansion in Azeroth we see many new races.

So are you interested to see the franchise put halfbreed races under the spotlight or you think focus on current races or adding new ones is better direction?

For me I am not sure, I mean halfbreed races can be interesting or can be boring, and sometimes they go over the top.

In design I think there is room for exploration and creating something unique like the Mak'nathal look different from both ogres and orcs, I mean based on Rexxar model as in TBC they used orcs models.

But sometimes you get ones that look no different than one of the races, like Aerator who recently got new unique model, yet his model look exactly like an elf, unlike the Arathi who look human with pointy ears, however even they are not that interesting in design, it's hard to notice it from far away and they look human.

Garona is other case, but she more because her back story was retconed from half human, half orc to half orc half Draenei, yet she look exactly as an orc, yet there is so much room to explore very unique designs with these concepts and even create factions based on them.

So yes of halfbreed races designed in interesting way and they made them as their own small faction with their own unique culture and identity I would prefer that over new races that look like animals walking on two legs or even some of the sub races like void elves and lightforged Draenei.

However if these half races designed to look exactly like one of the two races like half elves, with nothing that make them stand out, I think it would be boring.

This is... very specific and a very small question.
Are all Mages who study / Studied in Dalaran part of the Kirin Tor?
Aka, if you are an apprentice, first day, are you part of the Kirin tor, or is that something you graduate into?
If so, where does that line go?

Just curious.

I believe Azeroth will awaken and then it will be our task to rebuild ecosystems in space or on the back of Azeroth. Basically we will start a new story arch that is very cutsie and reminiscent of a children's cartoon, where we will help repopulate the world. This is not a joke. Leave it up until the end of The Last Titan please.

With everything we've seen n The War Within, I’ve been thinking about the true nature of the Curse of Flesh. We already know from the Enemy Infiltration - Preface book in Shadowlands that the forces of Order have their own agenda and will manipulate the truth. Since Chronicle is written from the Titans' perspective, what if the narrative about Yogg-Saron magically casting a "Curse" is just Titan propaganda to hide a fundamental biological truth about our origins?

This started with my observation of The Black Blood.

As we go underground in TWW, we encounter the Black Blood (Old God blood). Down near the Haranir areas, we see this blood directly interacting with tree-like root structures. When the Black Blood mixes with plant life, it gives the roots a veiny, blood-vessel-like structure. It fundamentally changes the biology and physiology of the flora, turning organic plant matter into something resembling flesh.

This brings me to Northrend and the World Tree, Vordrassil. We know its roots grew too deep and touched Yogg-Saron's prison. What if Old Gods intentionally use extreme plant matter like World Trees to spread their influence? Yogg-Saron’s Black Blood would have mixed with the immense Life energy of the World Tree, it doesn't have to give the Tree the physiology of the flesh, but like how the light works in Quelthalas in Midnight, it can still use the roots to spread its influence, Void and Light are essential the same entity just in two different states.

The tree then acted as a massive, continental distribution network. Instead of Yogg-Saron just waving a tentacle and "casting a spell," the World Tree spread this volatile mixture of Black Blood and Life magic across Azeroth.

My theory is that the Curse of Flesh on Azeroth was a biological reaction, not a magical spell. Yogg-Saron used Vordrassil's roots to mix his Black Blood with Azeroth's most potent Life magic, spreading it into the environment. When this Black Blood/Life mixture infected the stone and metal Titan Constructs, it caused a biological degradation identical to what happened on Draenor.

The Black Blood acted as the catalyst, interacting with Life to turn Order (metal/stone) into Flesh. This means Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes aren't just "corrupted" Titan machines we are the literal children of Order, Void, and Life combined. The Titans likely framed this as a malicious "Curse" to hide the fact that their perfect constructs had this biological vulnerability, and to keep us from realizing our true, multi-domain cosmic heritage.

I'm not saying it was entirely Yoggsaron or Nzoth it might of been Y'Shaarj or that mysterious Old God from the blood we found Azj-Kahet.

We've seen in Deathwing's lair that he used Void to experiment and change the physiology of beings that were already alive.

I think I heard somewhere that Old Gods are just matter that's been absorbed by the void and then spat out, they are fleshy creatures full of eyeballs and tentacles and teeth, biological traits.

I'm just spitting balls here, hoping something sticks but the TLDR here is I think the Old Gods used the Roots of World Trees to spread the curse of flesh through their own blood, rather than just being a general spell and we see this with the black blood mixing with plant matter in TWW.

Aman'thul ripped out both Y'Shaarj and Elunihir, maybe it wasn't life he was afraid of, maybe it was the void reaching out to life and using it to spread its influence.

To be clear, I see where the story is headed from a meta angle. Dragonflight onward has been laying the groundwork for a more antagonistic interpretation of the Titans. What I didn't understand was why people were okay with that.

I realized I was approaching the question backwards. I kept assuming people started with the pre-DF lore, looked at the evidence and arrived at the conclusion that the Titans were always antagonists. If you do that, the conclusion doesn't really make sense.

Now before someone puts words in my mouth: The Titans are not perfect. Reorigination is horrifying. The Keepers make mistakes. Titan-aligned characters have repeatedly demonstrated that the Titans' design can be rigid, arrogant and dangerously utilitarian.

But imperfection is not villainy. Which is a concept that both modern WoW writing and parts of the fanbase seem to struggle with a lot these days. (Ironic, considering what they accuse the Titans of being.)

The Titans spent eons protecting worlds from demonic incursions. They imprisoned the Old Gods. They spread stable ecosystems across Azeroth, then elevated native beings and brought in Wild Gods to help protect them. Their creations regularly choose to stand alongside mortals and make great sacrifices to protect Azeroth.

Then there's Algalon, who people constantly cite as proof the Titans were always villains. Except his actual dialogue points the other way. He doesn't decide the Titans were wrong. He never says reorigination was always a bad idea. He realizes there were unknown variables he didn't consider.

>"Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?"

>"Perhaps it is your imperfections... that which grants you free will... that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the Titan's own perfect creations have failed."

>"I cannot be certain of my own calculations anymore."

That last line is the important one. If the Titans were the control freaks people want them to be, discovering a variable they didn't anticipate should have pushed Algalon toward reorigination, not away from it. An unknown variable is uncertainty, it's something outside the model. Instead, the discovery of an unknown variable is exactly what convinces Algalon to spare Azeroth.

The whole point was reorigination is justified by the assumption that there's no other possible way to save the world. The moment Algalon realizes there may be a possibility he failed to account for, he offers the counter reply code.

So I kept asking myself: "How are people looking at all of this and concluding the Titans are just two-dimensional evil tyrants?"

Then it finally clicked. They're not starting with the lore and arriving at the conclusion. They're starting with the conclusion and working backwards. People just want the Titans to be the next set of raid tiers.

Once you realize that, a lot of arguments suddenly make sense. Reorigination isn't evidence that the Titans are working from a completely different scale or perspective. It's just proof they're evil. Odyn isn't a flawed Keeper who royally fucked up. He's proof the entire Titan worldview is corrupt. Every instance of secrecy becomes a conspiracy. Every mistake becomes malice. Every disagreement becomes oppression. The goal isn't to argue about moral nuances or what would make sense for the story going forward. The goal is to build a case for the next raid tier.

Which is why I spent years feeling like I was taking crazy pills. I was trying to figure out how someone could look at Warcraft's lore and arrive at "The Titans are the real bad guys." The answer is, they didn't. They wanted the Titans to be the bad guys first, and then went looking for evidence afterward.

Somewhere along the line, "well-intentioned cosmic architects whose methods can lean toward cold pragmatism" stopped being enough. Everything has to be reduced to heroes and villains. Every institution must secretly be oppressive. Every authority figure must secretly be a tyrant. Every collective project must actually be slavery.

Personally, I think Warcraft is far more interesting when the Titans are flawed, fallible and sometimes frighteningly callous because of the scale they're working on. But not malevolent or antagonistic.

Take the dragons for example. The war between the Aspects and Incarnates happened because the Incarnates believed the Titans were “forcing” Order magic onto dragons and making them be the protectors of Azeroth. However we have seen that being a protector is actually a choice and an Aspect could actually give up the position of Aspect if they wanted to. Kalecgos even disbanded the Blue Flight, while he was the Aspect of Magic, and let the Blues go their separate ways.

The Earthen too have plenty of free will as you even have an Earthen managing a meadery and he actually enjoys it. I doubt making alcohol was something “forced” on him by the Titans. Even the memory replacement is actually voluntary, albeit of the Earthen doesn’t refresh their memory cores they go senile.

This is our weekend power level debate mega-thread! Feel free to pit two or more characters/forces/magics/whatever against each other in the comments below. Example: Arthas v Illidan, Void v Fel, Mankirk's Wife v Nameless Quillboar.

We'll do this every weekend, so don't think you need to use up all of your favorite premises at once. Though, it is also OK to have a repeating premise, as these threads are designed to allow for recurring content to not fill the sub too often.

Reminder, these debates should be fun. There is often no right answer when comparing two enemies of a similar power tier, and hypothetically any situation a Blizzard writer creates could tip the scales of any encounter and our debates of course will not matter. These posts should just look something like a game of Superfight. You pick a character, you make the strongest case for how strong they are, or why they could beat another character, argue back and forth with someone else, and just let others decide who had the better argument. But remember that no matter how heated your debate gets, always follow rule #6. No bad behavior.

Previous weeks: https://old.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/search/?q=%22Versus%21+Debating+Warcraft+Lore+Power+Levels%21%22&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new

Lok'tar friends!

I know this isnt the normal kind of stuff you're asked but I figured the lore buffs would be a big help. If im not allowed to post this I apologize.

I plan to run a Horde based campaign for my TTRPG group coming up and my knowledge of wow extends to wow classic and thats all. Im looking for ideas or inspiration on a story or possible villain. I know i could make up my own but I wanted to see if anyone has ideas or existing villains/factions/organizations that i could use. My current idea is something to do with either the Burning Blade or the Burning Legion but im open to suggestions!!

Thank you all!

EDIT: I mistakenly used the term "Mok'nathal" when really I meant Half-Ogres as a whole. I'm talking about the race, not the specific clan. I've edited the post to make that more obvious but alas, I can't change the title.

I'm working on a few creative projects here and there - mostly a TTRPG campaign set in the Warcraft universe and a custom Warcraft III campaign - which both happen to feature some new Half-Ogre characters sprinkled throughout the stories.

As I was working on figuring out character descriptions and custom Warcraft III models, I ran into an interesting question regarding the Half-Ogre. Namely, how many of the common ogre "mutations" might be found in individual members of the race?

Do we think there could be Half-Ogrewho have red skin? Gray? Black? Blue? What happens if they drink demon blood - do they turn green, like orcs?

Could a Half-Ogrebe born with a single eye instead of two?

Could a Half-Ogreborn to an Ogre Magi also have two heads? For that matter, what happens if you put a Half-Ogrethrough the ritual to create an Ogre Magi at an Altar of Storms?

Obviously, they're my stories, I can do w/e the hell I want, but I'm curious what y'all think and would love to hear your thoughts and ideas, for funsies!

Now to be clear, I don't think Blizz will end up going this route because I don't really have much faith in their writing these days.

If Blizzard was to ever introduce druidism to Blood Elves, I think now is the best the stage has ever been set for it. In addition to the renewed cooperation between the elven races, I think that the lightbloom provides, in my opinion, a very compelling path towards druidism for the elves of Quel'thalas.

A major barrier to Thalassian druidism has always been a lack of a real strong hook that would interest the high elven populations. They have had a strong affinity for arcane magic, fel magic, and light magic, but the most interest that high elves seem to have taken in the natural world is through the Farstriders, which lean more toward the survivalist aspects of nature. Blood Elf respect for the natural world is a bit scarce - we have quests in which we curate the native animal populations; Quel'thalas, as we have seen it, is a fairly manicured society.

If we ever got Thalassian druids, I expected it to come from their proximity to the Amani trolls. They have demonstrated an affinity for Loa-based druidism and with easing tensions in recent story developments, we are seeing relations improving. On the other hand, It would be a tough sell to a lot of the elven population - it is something they've fought against for a thousand years and they have no particular interest in the Loa or any other local wild gods.

Recently I've been thinking that the Tauren of Thunder Bluff - with their worship of the light of An'she stemming out of a cultural movement amongst their druids - might serve as a bridge towards druidism through a reverence of the Light. In Tauren druidism, Light is as much a manifestation of the earthmother as the arcane power drawn from the moon. Lightbloom - which we know the Blood Elves are actively studying - provides the perfect opportunity to explore the space. Their worship of the Light puts them in a position to be receptive of this particular manifestation of nature, and they have allies who have specifically practiced and studied the intermingling of and relationship between the two forces.

One of the most interesting aspects of the lore, to me, has been the exploration of what the different disciplines look like in the cultural contexts of the races that practice them. Many people bemoan Sunwalkers and Seers (because they don't actually know the lore behind them), but I find them to be some of the most compelling combinations available. Its interesting to see how different populations approach interacting with the Elements or the Light and how those differences of depiction or practice amongst the different cultures.

They were so incredibly Horde-coded. A disparate collection of monster races (Gilgoblins, Makrura, Sea Giants, Murlocs) that found common ground in their shared oppression and banded together to rebel against their slavers and the magic they used to shackle their minds... Even Neri Sharpfin feels like somewhat of a Thrall parallel, being the one that spearheaded that rebellion, unified these races, helped them develop a common identity and build a new home for themselves. The Unshackled are former slaves, survivors and scavengers fighting an asymmetric war. That's so Horde ! That's so WC3. They were awesome tbh.

They expressed explicit interest in joining the Horde (even becoming available as a unit in the BFA mission table), they're a Goblin subrace, they have racial mounts ready and everything. I was convinced we'd get Gilgobins as a Horde AR and that didn't happen and I'm still so sad about it.

At the very least they showed up in Durotar afterward so I guess they might be used at some point... Was hoping to see them involved in Undermine or Siren Isle but alas. Maybe in the post-TLT expansion if we return to Kalimdor ?

Is Iridikron driven by vengeance towards the Titans, a desire to safeguard Azeroth or a mix of the two?

During Df he is he mentions he hates the Titans because what they did to the world and the dragons. However, allying with Xal'atath doesn't seen to be in Azeroth's best interests, as far as we know.