r/wheeloftime

Please try to keep spoilers to a minimum, but is New Londo in Dark Souls a reference to Four Kings in The Wheel of time? Only just got to chapter 32, just got to Four Kings. No idea what its actually like. But the way 31 ended it didnt sound good. And the only other thing w/ 4 kings of note is can think of is Dark souls. Its likely a crazy coincidence, but I was curious if anyone knew of interviews or obvious parallels that most people may have missed.

I’m on my third reread, I just finished New Spring and I’m about to jump back into Fires of Heaven.

But I’ve been thinking, what if Rand actually took up Lanfear on her offer back in book 4.

This is more of a character analysis of her, and not a “could they actually do it?” question.

Obviously, I don’t think it would really work given the context of the prophecies and how the pattern works.

But say the world was slightly different and the strings of the pattern weren’t as strong. Would she actually help him defeat the other others? Would they actually destroy the dark one together and just rule with each other over the world and spend eternity banging? Or do you think she would eventually betray him?

I'm about halfway through the great hunt atm. No spoilers please this is my first read. I'm at Nynaeves testing.

Nynaeve's hatred of Moraine barely makes sense. Moraine didn't cause the trollocs to appear, OR Rand to be a channeler/the dragon reborn yet she lives in Nynaeves head rent free. Moraine has saved everyone's lives multiple times over at this point... what gives?

Just finished the chapter where Morgase escaped that cunt Gaebril

5 books in ... I can finally read the pov of the different women without pulling my hair away.

Some people have seen me complain about these in each book but in this one I really feel they are starting to come to their own

First of all the shinning beacon Morgase the mother FUCKING GOATTTT

What is there to say about this woman that would do her justice, she got cought off guard by Gaebril, a forsaken male who can Channel and compel, totally unprepared with the Aes Sedai having failed her, she recognizes her mind isn't her own, her thoughts aren't her own and without knowing male channelers exist, without knowing what is happening plans her escape. Did it take her almost a year ... ? I think so but what she just did is insanely impressive and makes me like her a lot

Nynaeve is still raw ... still in over her head, she is powerful, her soul is in a good place but as we have been shown on this book she needs to be brought down a couple of folds, but I am happy she is recognizing her own flaws too, she is probably my least favourite so far

Egwene is definetly getting more capable, she has learned that she isnt the smartest, she is already learning to do so much, with her trial having shown her as the seat I can definetly see her there. She def still underestimates Rand and how much of a badass he has become she is much wiser. Her relationship with Avidenha is very sweet too

Elaine, probably my second fav of the main girls behing Min. She has been particularly smart in this book but then and again I was never annoyed with her as with the others. I find her "romance" with tom deeply disturbing and wierd but I guess things were different back then 🤣. She is still confused about Rand even if she confessed her deep like about him in a few occasions haha

Moiraine ... I never saw her "submission" and oath to Rand coming, it makes me hugely respect her seeing how far she is willing to go save fucking him (which she saw never leads to anything good ... which is suprising, i assume it fucks his relationship with the other women which are like his guiding stars according to Mins visions)

Its a very interesting dynamic and really the only way to have Rands ear

Avidenha is ... a character I surprisingly like, a total Tsundere which I usually find annoying but in her case I kind of get it, she left her entire way of life, is split on falling for her best friends "husband". Multiple cultural barriers and it kind of makes sense

All over some pov are still frustrating but there has been an insane amount of progress in this book wohoooo🎉🎉

Curious to read on .... I miss my boy Perrin 🥲

I would be the scholar insane enough to try it so we have an answer.

Spoilers ahead! Don’t read this unless you’ve read through Towers of Midnight, at least…

Okay, this has been living in my head and I need other WoT people to tell me how they interpret it.

Birgitte tells Nynaeve: “I am Birgitte. At least, that is the name you would know.”

She remembers countless previous lives: different names, different circumstances, different versions of herself. We know she was Jethari Moondancer, Maerion, etc. She describes those lives almost like books she has already read.

But when she is between lives in Tel’aran’rhiod, she is Birgitte Silverbow.

That made me start wondering: why Birgitte?

My first instinct was that Birgitte Silverbow must have been some sort of original/defining incarnation (e.g., the woman who eventually became the Hero of the Horn we know as Birgitte.)

Except… There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

If the Wheel truly has no beginning, then there can’t be a “first” incarnation of this soul. There was never an original Birgitte from whom all the other incarnations followed. Which makes me wonder if Birgitte isn’t actually an incarnation at all in the way I’ve always thought about her. Maybe Birgitte is the archetype of the soul itself.

And THEN there is the line after Elayne bonds her, when Birgitte says she vaguely remembers hearing a story about a female Warder in a life so long ago that she can’t remember anything more about it.

Which creates an even stranger possibility: could Birgitte be remembering herself?

Not herself earlier in this turning of the Wheel, but herself from another turning?

If the Wheel has turned eternally, then Elayne bonding Birgitte hasn’t just happened once. Presumably some version of these events has happened before and will happen again.

So you end up with this bizarre loop:

Birgitte → countless lives → Birgitte/Jethari/Maerion/etc. → Elayne’s Warder → countless more lives → another turning of the Wheel → Birgitte → Elayne’s Warder again…

There is no original Birgitte.

There is no first time she was bonded.

There is no first life.

And yet, between all of those lives,** she is Birgitte.**

So what exactly is “Birgitte Silverbow”? Is Birgitte the Pattern’s permanent identity for that soul? Is she an archetype that exists outside the individual Ages? Is “Birgitte” simply the identity that happens to be remembered in the Third Age, so that’s how Nynaeve perceives her?

And do you think the female Warder Birgitte vaguely remembers could actually be herself from a previous turning of the Wheel?

I finished the series and somehow THIS is the kind of question that keeps me awake. 😂

Would love to hear how everyone else interprets it, or if there’s something in the books/Jordan interviews that completely blows this theory apart.

So it started off really strong for me (the Moraine and Siuan parts) but I really feel like the ending was rushed and I didn’t quite buy Lan accepting his role as her warder in the manner it happened.

Maybe I missed parts that I didn’t fully understand.

This coming from a WoT fit life fan. I am super glad I read it but maybe I need to reread?

First of all, thanks to this sub and the other WoT subs for encouraging a second read. These books truly came to life the second time around.

The levels of detail, the amount of building blocks and setup that you can see made the payoffs so much better. Re reading the major moments and having all the feelings come up (Dumais Wells, the golden crane rides for Tarmon Gai’don, Nynaeve breaking the block…so many more).

It was also interesting to see some things that I hadn’t seen or felt before. The slog while not really a slog did feel like a major slow down of the plot this time when on first reading it didn’t. I noticed the difference in Matt’s portrayal in the Sanderson books. Also, the in matched timelines bothered me more. Especially towards the later parts when most of the storylines are concurrent but Perrin’s is somehow way behind (having Tam be mentioned in one place and then suddenly he’s still with Perrin from one chapter to another was really jarring).

Overall this was a wonderful experience. Maybe I’ll read it yet again some other time.

This is going to be a bit of a long post so apologies in advance and thanks to anybody who makes it through and has some thoughts on the topic.

I think one of the main reasons why people fall in love with a good book or series is because of the depth of character development, the rich world building, the emersion, etc. Take your favourite character for example. In a book, the author can give us so much more information on their background, sometimes you get to follow their inner dialogue, their motivations and feelings and interpretations of events. When characters interact, a book can dedicate entire chapters to private 1:1 conversations where they can discuss plans, share opinions, and in general build up the significance of countless little details. All of these put together is what drives character development and arcs.

When it comes to interacting with the main plot of a story all of these interactions look something like:

a+b+c+d+e+f = G

Where G is either a primary story climax or major event.

Now multiply this out because there is rarely just one character involved. This suspense and weight is built behind every aspect of a story. So much momentum and emphasis can be put behind characters, places, events, even items so that when multiple pieces interact in a major way the outcome is a culmination of all this significance

Now our interaction looks like:

a+b+c = 1
d+e+f = 2
g+h+i = 3
j+k+l = 4

1+2+3+4 = HOLY SHIT moment
-------------------------------

The problem that I see so many TV adaptations making, is they see the plot of a book, parse out those HOLY SHIT moments, and then just try to fill in the blanks as efficiently as possible. But so often it just ends up landing flat because you did not build any of the suspense or significance. A character still *does* the same thing but nobody knows *why* so it just doesn't matter.

Even worse is when they copy overall structure of the story, but then change key details for seemingly no good reason. And when this happens with a character that has an especially detailed and long development arch it makes me want to pull my fucking hair out. Instead of a consistent and logical chain of cause-and-effect, personality, drives and motivations you get something like:
a+b+c+d+e+f+g+eRf+1+*&$

Writing this I am specifically thinking about Helaena, Jace, Rhaenyra and Alicent for HotD. Then of course Tyrion Lannister, Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen in GoT. For fuck sakes the entire narrative is building towards the culmination of the "ice and fire" prophecy that in the end just sort of...doesn't matter. Its like setting up a 10KM chain of dominos and then the last piece doesn't fall.

All that said, I understand 100% that a TV show or a movie just cannot realistically convey all of the context, dialogue, motivations, etc that a book can. There just is not enough screen time available and its just not as entertaining to watch drawn out conversations between characters or listening to the MC narrate their intentions and thoughts. However what writers CAN and SHOULD do is understand the structure and reasoning behind each characters story. Find those important elements and either showcase that in a different way or find a substitution that might not be the exact same but is *functionally* equivalent.

I will leave this off with just one example where I believe a TV show did a good job at doing exactly that

***Spoiler alert for Wheel of Time Tv show and Books***

This is just one example, but there are countless others. But in the Wheel of Time book series, one of the characters, Perrin Aybara, is fairly consequential but by no means the main character in the story. His whole shtick revolves around his hesitance to lead, reluctance to violence, but still overwhelmingly protective and loyal. Plus a good deal of awkwardness around girls.

Anyhow in the books, we get entire chapters from his perspective, listening to his inner struggle between using a blacksmith hammer to create things and a war axe to destroy. Lessons learned from his blacksmith apprenticeship, about his family, his relationship with the other main characters growing up as boys etc etc. It is A LOT of information that builds a really memorable (and one of my favourite) characters. But of course a TV show is not going to spend hours and hours trying to establish such a detailed description of a side character. So what do they do instead?

*Spoiler* In the very first episode of this series they make a massive change to the character by having Perrin be married right from the start and in a very quick, but tragic scene, he accidentally kills his own wife with an axe.

BOOM, just like that, you have a character you were just introduced to that episode and in like 15 seconds the writers have created a situation where the viewer, from then on, totally understands his hesitance to lead, aversion to axes, desire to build and return to life of a blacksmith, awkwardness with females. When he picks up an axe next time, you understand the significance of that action immediately.

Now obviously this is a MASSIVE change to the story and character, something that book fans typically hate on TV writers for doing. But in this case I actually loved the decision here to keep the core of what makes Perrin tick and being able to portray that going forward in the story.

I dont know if this was confirmed anywhere, but my suspicion is that this is one of many examples where the writers room actually LISTENED TO their hired writing consultant, Brandon Sanderson. What a difference these small decisions can make when a writer actually understands the important elements of a story and works to maintain them. Keeping an intact and coherent chain like this is what makes those big scenes really land with an audience. When you understand all of the character threads and moments that lead up to the finale is what makes it really land.

Rant over, sorry again, and thanks again to anybody who made it this far.