u/AudaciousAudience

Toward the end of a recent therapy appointment, my therapist mentioned that going "no contact" is a big decision, and it's not anywhere near as easy as they make it sound online when people write "Go no contact".

I found that very helpful, since I struggled for many years about the choice to go no contact or not.

She brought up the subject of the type of grief that goes along with going no contact.

I had an epiphany--that in hindsight, I much rather would've gone through the disenfranchised complicated grief process of going no contact in my 20s, versus going through two additional decades of the pain, love bombing-abuse-trauma bond cycle, which made it very challenging to heal.

But then I also wondered if I had gone no contact years ago, would I have always regretted that I didn't give low contact a chance, and made it possible to continue to have a relationship with my narcissistic parents, while also protecting myself from their ongoing abuse? Would I have felt like it was a failure to not have been able to have a relationship with them in which I could've learned to not react to their abuse?

We ran out of time right then. It's something I thought would be interesting to bring up here for experience, discussion, etc.

I recently emailed a friend about my narcissistic parents' abuse, since it's been quite bad lately. This is someone I've known for a very long time. I was merely trying to be honest, and explain why I haven't been in touch. I was emotional when writing the email, due to all of the hurt and pain from my narcissistic parents' abuse. Unfortunately that reads as anger. This friend has ignored my email. Crickets. Silence.

I can't think of anything more hurtful then telling someone in your life about ABUSE, and being met by silence. I read up on this phenomenon, and it seems that people are uncomfortable with abuse, so it's easier for them to think that the person is lying, exaggerating, attention-seeking, etc. It's baffling to me, and very hurtful. Would I be taken seriously if I sent photos of black and blue marks and broken bones? How can it be that we reach out for help and support, and the door figuratively gets slammed in our face?

I ruined a long friendship because I was vulnerable and shared about abuse seeking support and understanding at a time that I was emotional. Why does society expect abuse victims to be unemotional and calm when being abused for decades?

A longtime friend of mine was telling me about a friend who sent her a long, emotionally charged email about an abusive situation she's in with a family member. I read it, and it sounded horrible. If I were this person's friend, I would've reached back out to offer her support and ask how I could help.

My longtime friend, however, got really obnoxious, rolled her eyes, and said that she thinks her friend is lying, attention-seeking, playing the victim, etc. She told me she's not responding to the email because that would "give her attention" and if she emails her again, she's going to block her.

I was speechless.

Why would people jump to this type of conclusion, versus seeing that this person is in an abusive situation and reached out for help and support?

A while ago, I reached out to a longtime friend about my family's abuse that I was going through. I was in the midst of it, and needed support. She seemed fine in the moment--told me to go no contact asap, and got a bit heated in the conversation about it. I thought everything was okay. I thanked her the next day via text.

Since then, she's been ignoring my texts and calls, where I just am reaching out to say hello, or connect over things we usually do. Being ignored made everything worse. In a moment of getting caught up in my emotions of my family abuse and my friend ignoring me, I sent her a very long emotional email about everything going on with my family, and how I cannot believe she's ignoring me and misunderstanding the situation, etc. Of course she just ignored that, which I find to be extremely painful.

Why do friends/family ignore someone in emotional pain who is being abused? I just don't understand.

Edit to add: My friend doesn't know my family. However, I do sense over the years that people do not understand narcissistic parental abuse, and just assume that it must be the person's fault and not the parent's.

All of my posts were removed, because I was discussing my narcissist siblings instead of my narcissist parents. Where do we go on Reddit to discuss our narcissist siblings? Thank you.

Has anyone heard this term before? It's not abuse, it's our reaction to abuse. It's not to justify our reaction, but it explains what it is, and why it happens.

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Reactive Defense is similar to DARVO. The narcissist abuser's treatment of us escalates to a point that the abuse victim reacts. Then the narcissist uses that reaction to paint their victim as the narcissist or the abuser.

My n-mother and n-siblings did this to me constantly. I see clearly now why I behaved very well at school, with friends, at work, or anywhere else but with my narcissistic parent and narcissistic family members. It was my norm. Occasionally, however, if someone reminded me of them or treated me like they treated me, I'd react out of cPTSD without meaning to. My therapist explains this all to me as being "flooded" by a lifetime of narcissistic abuse and trauma. I worked hard to avoid this from happening.

It's a shame that for those of us who stay in contact with the abusive narcissists, that we live thru the push-pull of their love bombing followed by their narcissistic abuse, which purposely triggers us into a reactive defense, that they then use to justify how they treat us, and add to their smear campaign of us.

It's no different than being in a domestic violence relationship, with the abuser abuses the victim to such an extreme, that the victim reaches his or her breaking point. The breaking point behavior is then used against them.

Let's discuss.

My half-brother took control of cleaning out my step-mother's apartment when she passed. He was very controlling and spiteful, took what he wanted, and threw out or donated the rest, knowing that this would hurt my sister and I, her step-daughters. Many years ago, our step-mom gave my sister her collection of ceramics she made a long time ago. She didn't have room for them in her apartment, and so my sister took them.

Our step-mom recently passed from cancer. I asked her if I could have one of the ceramics that held a lot of meaning for me. She said no. Not even one. I got upset because I was flooded (my therapist's word) with all the ways she's been a narcissistic abusive nasty bitch to me over my entire life. She didn't like that I brought up the past (things that were never resolved, e.g., I'm just supposed to get over her past abuse and pretend they didn't happen) so her consequence/childish punishment for that was to not give me anything of our step-mom's that she had for me. She literally had a package to mail for me as a surprise, and then said she was now not going to send it. This was extremely painful, especially with it being right around Mother's Day. My half-brother egged her on because he knows that it strokes her fragile ego.

Instead of caring about how hurt I am, and how her actions just compounded the hurt, she showed our family my emails that took everything out of context and make me look like the bad one, which is her pattern. Her emails were much more softly written than normal, which makes it even worse for me. I actually think her husband wrote them. It's not her style at all to talk in a soft manner. Plus, the emails still basically said the same thing that she always says, soft or not.

I know that I am in control of my reactions. My therapist and I work on that together. Fortunately he explained to me what happens when an abuse victim "reacts". It's a normal reaction, but one I can improve. However, these narcissists are evil and enjoy baiting people into a reaction. He does not use the term "reactive abuse" because he says it's not abuse.

There's a family member who I strongly suspect has NPD. He told me that he went to see a therapist for self-esteem problems regarding a career change he was nervous about. He then boasted to me that in the middle of the session, the therapist told him that she couldn't help him/didn't need her help with his self-esteem issues, and ended the session. I surmised immediately that the therapist realized she was dealing with a narcissist who had the opposite of self-esteem issues. I also could hypothesize how he must've spoken to her in session about his intelligence, capabilities, superiority complex, etc. Or am I wrong in thinking this?

Have you ever stopped a session with a new patient, or considered it? Why?

I've never seen or heard about this before with N-mom's.

Has anyone else had this experience?

Her mother was an N-mom--she was definitely the type where it was all about vanity and other people's perceptions. My n-mom rebelled against that, and basically demanded (in her indirect or direct words and abuse) that she wanted her children to be overweight and nerdy. I hated it so much. It wasn't who I was. She raged (yes, raged--I'm not using the word lightly) when I lost weight, took an interest in exercising, grew my hair out, ate healthy, started to develop my own hobbies and interests, etc. Those years were her worst rages while I was still under her roof. She had an even lower respect for me, even though I was healthier and happier, worked hard at my jobs, was doing okay at school, etc. She took everything personally if we weren't carbon copies of her.

What do you do to make the day meaningful for yourself if you're not a mom, and you had a complicated relationship with your own mother?

GC sibling gets a thrill out of giving me (SC) "consequences for behavior" he deems wrong by me, as if I am still a child. It's how he tries to get sick power and control over me and my feelings, One of our n-parents used to do this. He picked it up very early on and has continued throughout our lives. It's quite an ego boost for him.

GC sibling has some things he saved for me from when our parents' downsized, that he said he knows I will appreciate and like very much. I was looking forward to receiving them. He knows I've been going through a very difficult time. However, he cruelly told me that due to my hurting his feelings (when I calmly and clearly pointed out his painful abuse of me), he is no longer giving them to me. WHAT NORMAL PERSON DOES THAT?!"

Why do the narcissists enjoy and get an evil thrill of a power rush, in taking something away from the SC?! Dangling the carrot, taking it away. Over and over and over again. It's soul crushing, and has been happening since my childhood. It's cruel. These narcissist golden children have absolutely no class whatsoever. They are completely soulless. I've never even seen him cry. Cold. As. Ice.

I (scapegoat child) factually, and calmly tell my golden child sibling what he did and said that was clearly abusive and not right. DARVO is their immediate response.

He has a new verbal response: **"You are hurting me by thinking I'd ever abuse you or mean harm."** My therapist pointed out that he wants me to have blind trust and loyalty to him, despite their blatant life long psychological abuse.

What is this tactic he's using now?

What's the best way to respond to it?

My spouse keeps taking my GC-n-sibling's side, and it's making me so mad. Even my therapist has at least 3 times told me to assertively tell my spouse to stop taking my sibling's side, that it's MY family, and to behave around them like I ask. My spouse apologizes and says he won't do that next time. But then he does. And repeats it. I usually give my spouse the benefit of the doubt, but I've known him long enough to think he's being passive aggressive or something. He tells me what I want to hear.

We're supposed to have each other's backs. He's not having mine, through the most difficult time of my life. I recently told him about something abusive my GC-n-sibling did again. Instead of focusing on my hurt, my pain, my sibling's abuse, he singled in one a misunderstanding I had, which I had already owned up and apologized to said sibling for, and used that to stick up for my sibling!!

How the f*ck can your own spouse stick up for a narcissistic, abusive, sibling in law, who has made my life hell?!

TL;DR - My n-GC sibling thinks I'm the narcissist. I'm the scapegoat. He refuses to have a conversation about any of the abuse I point out to him. Yet he blames me for hurting him when I bring it up. I can't seem to let go of the fact that I keep thinking we could have a healthy sibling relationship.

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My n-GC sibling relationship is the biggest mind f*ck out of them all. He's bullied me and scapegoated me since childhood, yet simultaneously he has loved me and cared about me at times too. When I was very young, I worshiped the ground he walked on. Our n-mother loved that I worshiped him and that we never fought (basically I did everything he said, let him walk all over me like a door mat, internalized his bullying, etc.) When I came home from school crying after being bullied on the bus, he laughed at me. He had been bullied himself earlier, and then became a bully to me.

His role in our dysfunctional family was not only GC, but also the "family hero". He was always extremely competitive with me, even though I wasn't competitive. He would only play board games with me that he'd win, and then gloat. He ordered me around like a drill Sargent. He told my mother I wasn't smart enough for college (I have a college degree and a professional degree). He was always jealous when I had boyfriends and would copy where I went on dates. He made fun of me for having depression/anxiety/ADHD. I think my n-mom went along with it and encouraged it, but I don't want to dig into those memories right now.

He victim blamed me very harshly when I was in abusive relationships, including decades later blaming me for the "stress" it caused on the family for choosing to date these boyfriends, saying I was "bad" for dating them because they all told me not to.

He completely invalidated not only the abuse I went through, but also something very medically traumatic from when I was a teen. He would be snarky and boast that "I saw your email about [the medical trauma subject] and I hit the delete key!" I was in tremendous emotional pain, and he did nothing but 'punish" (the word they always use for me, despite my age) me for reaching out for help.

He simultaneously subconsciously loved the fact that he was "the family hero" and he jumped in to take charge all the time, gloated that he fixed family problems, yet consciously complained that he was always in the middle of everything, and that everyone went to him to solve and fix their problems.

When I went LC at the recommendation of more than one psychologist, my n-mother would use him to get any and all personal information out of me, and feed back to her, via phone or email. I have proof. I often felt like I was being "emotionally raped" (I know, strong words, but that's what it felt like) by the tactics he'd use to bully me into telling him exactly what he wanted to know. He would be loving and kind (I think it was genuine but who the heck knows), and then as soon as I let my guards down, he'd hammer me harshly with questions that I was too scared to not answer.

I must sound like a big weak wimp in how I'm explaining this, but I'm not. I have had strength deep inside of me since I was very young. I've always sensed its presence. And I know that's a part of why these narcissists have to try to control me and bully me. Yes I did cow down to my n-mom and n-siblings, because they were bigger than me, and held a lot over my head, which was terrifying as a child. It wasn't until I lived on my own, that I was able to break free from that hold.

From having a n-mother who I used to overhear tell my n-e-father that "she will amount to nothing" or "she's an ungrateful brat", I have seen who I actually am--intelligent, strong, caring, empathetic, and capable. My depression/anxiety/ADHD was not my fault. They were not character flaws. They were not "behavioral choices". They did not mean I was or am "a bad child/daughter/sibling". I wasn't "difficult" or "a problem child". Every teacher I ever had said how good a student I was. I usually sat up front, was quiet, never caused problems, did my homework and assignments." My n-mom told me that she was always shocked to hear teachers say this about me, and would say that with wide eyes. She took it personally that I "behaved" in school but not at home. My "behavior" was never once a decision or choice. My "behavior" at home, was due to my absorbing all of the family dysfunction, the generational trauma (including the fights between my parents with my grandparents), my n-mother's anger, rage, aggression, negativity, tension, and her parenting with terror, fear, control, rage, power, and punishment. I didn't deserve any of it.

Despite this nightmare, my n-sibling and I were at times very close. Almost like how twins are I think. We had our own silliness and way of interacting. In some ways, we were very different--I was outgoing, he was introverted. I was a social butterfly, he was socially awkward.

My n-mom used to brag that I was "jealous" of my GC-sibling. It wasn't jealousy. It was that I didn't understand since a very early age, why GC sibling was treated like a queen, put on a pedestal, could do no wrong, was all my n-parent talked about in excess and to an extreme, to the point that my n-parent would psychotically forget my name and call me GC-sibling's name (no, it wasn't the type of "normal" parent who forgets their kid's name. This was extreme, as if I didn't exist except to talk about "the problem"). When I was a child, I used to quietly ask my n-mom if she loved me, and she would laugh. I used to quietly squirm and ask why she loved GC sibling more than me? She used to laugh and say that she loved all her children equally. Then I would overhear her in her snarky tone of voice, telling everyone that I was jealous of GC-sibling.

Even when I tried to be exactly like a carbon copy of my GC sibling so my n-mother would think I was "good", (I have a great example that just popped into my head, but for anonymity purposes I won't share it), it was never good enough, and I'd get frustrated whenever I failed to be exactly like him. It wasn't until senior year of high school, that I finally started to give myself permission to figure out who *I* was, and not who my n-mother wanted me to be. (Going away to college helped immensely with that, too, as well as going LC for a time). After a lot of work of "erasing the tapes put there by sick abusive people", I know who and what I am, and exactly what I went through.

It was validating when another psychologist, 15 years after my first one, explained to me more about narcissism and that "Your GC sibling is actually miserable, because he's lived his entire life being a mini-me of your n-mother, instead of being his own person. When he wakes up and realizes this one day, he will likely fall apart. It will be a rude awakening. He is not as happy or in the better family role as it appears on the surface." (quoting but paraphrasing). She also taught me what healthy parenting and healthy sibling relationships are like, compared with mine.

After some specific work I did with another therapist, which was one of the most fascinating, healing, and helpful work I've done, I looked deep within myself and focused on my past behavior, words, and actions. The things I thought I did wrong, I was told were absolutely normal child/teen things to do, and weren't bad at all. Nothing I did owed him an accountable apology, except one general thing. I made the apology without excusing it and without putting it into context to with the reason for it (I acted a certain way due to our roles in the family). Oddly, he looked at me, perplexed, and sort of laughed, but not in a snarky way this time, and said something to the effect that it didn't need an apology. That made me finally realize that he just needed something to complain about me for. And that he actually did love/need being the "family hero". It was very strange to process that moment.

Over the years, we've gotten along nicely when we spend time together, if we are not on guard with one another. It's hard to explain. Other times, his spouse listens to the conversation and I hear her in the background tell her what to say to me.

I know they use techniques with me that my own therapists have taught me to use when dealing with narcissists, and it drives me crazy. I am not a narcissist. I've asked therapists. I've looked within and checked my own behavior, thoughts, words, and actions. I have done self-analysis and take accountability. I have genuinely apologized to people where warranted. I have worked on the shame and self-forgiveness that crops up, when I'm projecting emotions onto others. There was a time I became OCD with doing this, to the point I had to stop. I was beating myself up for every little thing, and I was literally subconsciously getting myself caught in actions or words that filled me with shame. It made no sense, because I didn't deserve it. It was as if I was seeking the familiarity of being a piece of sh*t, because that's how my n-family treated me. It was what I was used to, even though I know at my core who and what I am--a good person.

So any time my GC-n-sibling throws in his "sorry you feel that way", "that's your opinion", "I'm entitled to my opinion" bullsh*t, versus actually having an empathetic, calm, back and forth conversation, I'm at my wits end. Anytime I clearly state what he's done recently to hurt me (he's extremely psychologically abusive toward me), he refuses to step back and actually think about what I'm saying (or writing). He goes right for the nonsense terms that people use when they're dealing with a narcissist. It makes no sense. I'm the scapegoat. He takes zero accountability or responsibility for how he treats me. He can never be wrong. I've never heard him once in his life apologize for anything. He acts superior to everyone. He's been abusive to people who worked for him. He makes fun of people's mental health (again I have a perfect example of something he said about a coworker that floored me, but for anonymity I can't post it here).

Whenever I calmly and factually try to point out his hypocrisy, or his abuse, he says I'm "lashing out" and he shows my emails to everyone as part of the family's smear campaign. He talks to my wife behind my back when he's mad at me, and sees nothing wrong with any and all of his behavior or words. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I know this, because I know who and what he is at his core. He's just like my n-mother. A mini-me of her.

When I point out calmly and factually his words and actions toward me that are abusive, he says that that hurts him, and then he "punishes" me harshly because I've hurt him. It's bizarre.

A normal person, when being told by a sibling they supposedly love and care about, what specific actions (abuse) and words were abusive/hurtful, would stop the world and say "I had no idea I was hurting you. I am so sorry. That's not who I want to be. Tell me how it made you feel. Tell me what I can do to make it up for you. That was wrong of me to do/say. I will work at changing my behavior and words in the future. Thank you for being honest with me, I'm sure that wasn't easy."

An abusive person turns it back onto the "victim".

I know this logically.

I know it's a lose-lose. He will never ever do the painful work of self-analysis. He will never look within. He will never think about how he's treated me. It's too painful for the narcissist to face. They cannot look at themselves in the mirror. They have to point the finger at their victim/scapegoat.

I know needs to scapegoat and victim blame me. That's easier than looking within and taking accountability. Sometimes I wonder when/if he decides to cut me off, who will become his next victim/scapegoat. I want to warn them. But that's not my business.

You'd think I'd view it as a gift. A break. A finally being free of the tremendously heavy chain that's been dragging me down my entire life, if he went no contact with me. But then why would it feel like a tremendous loss? An emptiness? A mourning of the sibling relationship I thought we had?

I always used to think that abusive relationships were 100% abuse, and loving relationships were 100% love. How naive. How I wished that my family relationships were one of these. If they were 100% abuse, then there would be no love to keep in my memory; to keep wishing and hoping to relive those or to live new ones. With 100% abuse, it'd be so easy to cut the chain once and for all, and say "good riddance!" With 100% love, there would've been no pain. Love isn't supposed to hurt to the core. Love means someone can genuinely say I'm sorry and mean it. Love means they can say "You were an innocent sweet child, and I'm sorry for terrifying you. You didn't deserve that. I'm sorry I misunderstood your behavior."

I hate my sibling because he abuses me yet loves me. I don't know how to break free from his scapegoat chain. How the f*ck can he have the gall to think that I am the narcissist? F*ck him for making me question my own thinking. I'm not the narcissist here. I'm working on my flaws. I see where I need to be a better person, and not react to abuse or what it does to me. I am the family scapegoat. But I refuse to keep that role like it's some kind of scarlet letter, engraved on me by their hot coals. I am only the scapegoat if I let them scapegoat me and if I take on the role they want me to take on for their brittle egos.

How do I stop letting him hurt me repeatedly? The love/hate is absolutely draining. How do I let go once and for all, cut off that heavy metal chain they put on me, despite the fact that on some level, he has sibling love for me? It would've been so much easier to do this if the love never existed.