u/CoffeDaisies

Hypothesis:

If even imaginary characters can influence our immune system, then OCD might be doing the same. It was found that PANS and PANDAS (brain infection, related to immune system) can induce OCD very quickly. I think that the immune system and brain are linked and can interact with each other. The disgust might be changing something in the immune system. On the other hand, high activity of the immune system can tell brain that 'the surroundins are dangerous'.

Some SSRI can downregulate the immune response. I think that there are links between the immunity, environment and brain state that we are still learning.

Do you know any people with OCD and autoimmune disease? Have you heard about the link between OCD and gut bacteria? Do you think that it can be influenced by hormones, diet or any other factors?

Contamination spillover. Is it common? Do you experience this? For me, it was very strong. For example, when I was living alone, I feared hospitals (because they are related to prion disease). If I went to the doctor, I would treat clothes as 'contaminated'. Then I would also fear the laundry basket. Then I would even worry that if I wash hands, some droplets might fall somewhere and splash and spread the contamination. It was quite extreme. I think that it might be worsened by anti-moth hangers that contain pyrethroids (could be anxiety-inducing).

I was on medication for some time. I stopped medication. I moved. I no longer live alone. Since then, my situation improved dramatically. I still occasionally have some 'icks', but they are not that strong. I realised the spillover is almost nonexistent. I can wash the dishes, cook etc.

I have these long running icks (it probably came from the period when I was working with really dangerous substances). When I learn that something is dangerous, my brain remembered for months or even longer, until I 'did something about it'. My therapist thought the fear works like a proverbial goldfish, that I will be scared and in 5 min the fear will go away (I think biology says goldfish have memory to be concise). The therapist thought I will be scared for my life if I touch something dirty (outside). I wasn't scared. The therapist was surprised that the fear increased minutes after I was inside my flat, where I was near my clean stuff. I sometimes can even sit on the 'contaminated' sofa, but I have the feeling I 'have to something about it' like next time I clean etc. It won't go away for weeks. That being said the therapist didn't understand that, I mean they're not inside my head, but I felt misunderstood.

I have these long running icks (it probably came from the period when I was working with really dangerous substances). When I learn that something is dangerous, my brain remembered for months or even longer, until I 'did something about it'. My therapist thought the fear works like a proverbial goldfish, that I will be scared and in 5 min the fear will go away (I think biology says goldfish have memory to be concise). The therapist thought I will be scared for my life if I touch something dirty (outside). I wasn't scared. The therapist was surprised that the fear increased minutes after I was inside my flat, where I was near my clean stuff. I sometimes can even sit on the 'contaminated' sofa, but I have the feeling I 'have to something about it' like next time I clean etc. It won't go away for weeks. That being said the therapist didn't understand that, I mean they're not inside my head, but I felt misunderstood.

I had mostly cleanliness symptoms, not much sexual nor 'bad thoughts'. Anyway what is curious for me, is how many people experience 'noone can touch my stuff' thing?

I did experience that. Eventually I was so tired and isolated that I asked my family for help.

My therapist was like 'That's bad. Are they cleaning in a special way? Are they arranging things geometrically?'

There was a lot of discussions and explaining, but still they thought the more independence the better.

Eventually I moved out with my boyfriend, but I think those ERP rules can be misinterpreted. I mean if someone is cleaning one small thing for two hours, spending whole weekend on cleaning and still thinks everything is dirty, skips meals etc? Like, I think if the relationship with cleaning is so messed up, maybe asking for help is a good thing? And then trying to re-establish a healthy, normal ways of functioning?

I feel like for me, when I was working in a chemistry lab, and then, made myself believe that there is some prion danger, I was 'conjuring' the fear myself. I wanted to isolate 'dangerous' things. I was sometimes even scared of touching random things inside my flat (I was the only locator there, so that was pretty dumb).

My brain learnt that 'there is something to be scared of' and didn't want me to touch walls, cabinets etc. It was even scared when water from washing hands splashed on some random objects (because it might splash back to me somehow).

At some point, with the help of medication therapy and changing the environment, my brain just stopped tagging objects as dangerous. I gradually started washing dishes normally etc etc. I could accept randomly bumping into chairs.

It was a long long process. I could occasionally get some hygienic 'icks' when I cleaned everything and I forgot one object or touched some stuff with dirty laundry.

I noticed before my period my brain gets into a panicked state and again starts fearing cluttered stuff without a reason and that's where the icks come from.

The point is that my OCD therapist expected me to be scared. When I didn't believe the thing is related to prions I wasn't always scared. I could touch a balcony with black soot on it and wasn't scared at all. They wanted me to touch things that I'm scared of and discuss the fear.

I knew that what produced the ick was mostly me behaving like it was icky. So it was kind of hard for me, because if I was better, why conjure fear on purpose?

I might however be scared, for example of my laundry basket for no reason (or it was a memory from when I thought the chemical agents are really there). Or the storage room, where dirty clothes were mixed with clean, it was dusty etc.

I would rather do the exposures in the therapist's office for that reason. It was safer in a separated space (I moved out and it had to be online). In my living space, if it went well, I could ignore it. If it went bad it could erase a lot of progress, I felt. One time I panicked after touching stuff in the kitchen with a laundry basket. My boyfriend was cooking there normally. I wouldn't enter the kitchen until we washed all of the surfaces and all of the bajilion spice bottles he touched by that time.

For me, the most fear-inducing behaviour was walking in the flat, that I considered 'fine' and avoiding touching clean things with dirty things. If I behaved normally I might even get accustomed to touching things and be less scared the next time. Sitting half an hour and discussing that felt like exaggerating the fear.

I did leave the remainders of ick as it was one time. It did fade a bit with time, but I still felt like 'it was there' until the next cleaning.

Has anyone experienced something similar? Is my OCD likely to return? Or, as my therapist was saying, is it OCD speaking?

I feel like for me, when I was working in a chemistry lab, and then, made myself believe that there is some prion danger, I was 'conjuring' the fear myself. I wanted to isolate 'dangerous' things. I was sometimes even scared of touching random things inside my flat (I was the only locator there, so that was pretty dumb).

My brain learnt that 'there is something to be scared of' and didn't want me to touch walls, cabinets etc. It was even scared when water from washing hands splashed on some random objects (because it might splash back to me somehow).

At some point, with the help of medication therapy and changing the environment, my brain just stopped tagging objects as dangerous. I gradually started washing dishes normally etc etc. I could accept randomly bumping into chairs.

It was a long long process. I could occasionally get some hygienic 'icks' when I cleaned everything and I forgot one object or touched some stuff with dirty laundry.

I noticed before my period my brain gets into a panicked state and again starts fearing cluttered stuff without a reason and that's where the icks come from.

The point is that my OCD therapist expected me to be scared. When I didn't believe the thing is related to prions I wasn't always scared. I could touch a balcony with black soot on it and wasn't scared at all. They wanted me to touch things that I'm scared of and discuss the fear.

I knew that what produced the ick was mostly me behaving like it was icky. So it was kind of hard for me, because if I was better, why conjure fear on purpose?

I might however be scared, for example of my laundry basket for no reason (or it was a memory from when I thought the chemical agents are really there). Or the storage room, where dirty clothes were mixed with clean, it was dusty etc.

I would rather do the exposures in the therapist's office for that reason. It was safer in a separated space (I moved out and it had to be online). In my living space, if it went well, I could ignore it. If it went bad it could erase a lot of progress, I felt. One time I panicked after touching stuff in the kitchen with a laundry basket. My boyfriend was cooking there normally. I wouldn't enter the kitchen until we washed all of the surfaces and all of the bajilion spice bottles he touched by that time.

For me, the most fear-inducing behaviour was walking in the flat, that I considered 'fine' and avoiding touching clean things with dirty things. If I behaved normally I might even get accustomed to touching things and be less scared the next time. Sitting half an hour and discussing that felt like exaggerating the fear.

I did leave the remainders of ick as it was one time. It did fade a bit with time, but I still felt like 'it was there' until the next cleaning.

Has anyone experienced something similar?

I feel like for me, when I was working in a chemistry lab, and then, made myself believe that there is some prion danger, I was 'conjuring' the fear myself. I wanted to isolate 'dangerous' things. I was sometimes even scared of touching random things inside my flat (I was the only locator there, so that was pretty dumb).

My brain learnt that 'there is something to be scared of' and didn't want me to touch walls, cabinets etc. It was even scared when water from washing hands splashed on some random objects (because it might splash back to me somehow).

At some point, with the help of medication therapy and changing the environment, my brain just stopped tagging objects as dangerous. I gradually started washing dishes normally etc etc. I could accept randomly bumping into chairs.

It was a long long process. I could occasionally get some hygienic 'icks' when I cleaned everything and I forgot one object or touched some stuff with dirty laundry.

I noticed before my period my brain gets into a panicked state and again starts fearing cluttered stuff without a reason and that's where the icks come from.

The point is that my OCD therapist expected me to be scared. When I didn't believe the thing is related to prions I wasn't always scared. I could touch a balcony with black soot on it and wasn't scared at all. They wanted me to touch things that I'm scared of and discuss the fear.

I knew that what produced the ick was mostly me behaving like it was icky. So it was kind of hard for me, because if I was better, why conjure fear on purpose?

I might however be scared, for example of my laundry basket for no reason (or it was a memory from when I thought the chemical agents are really there). Or the storage room, where dirty clothes were mixed with clean, it was dusty etc.

I would rather do the exposures in the therapist's office for that reason. It was safer in a separated space (I moved out and it had to be online). In my living space, if it went well, I could ignore it. If it went bad it could erase a lot of progress, I felt. One time I panicked after touching stuff in the kitchen with a laundry basket. My boyfriend was cooking there normally. I wouldn't enter the kitchen until we washed all of the surfaces and all of the bajilion spice bottles he touched by that time.

For me, the most fear-inducing behaviour was walking in the flat, that I considered 'fine' and avoiding touching clean things with dirty things. If I behaved normally I might even get accustomed to touching things and be less scared the next time. Sitting half an hour and discussing that felt like exaggerating the fear.

I did leave the remainders of ick as it was one time. It did fade a bit with time, but I still felt like 'it was there' until the next cleaning.

Has anyone experienced something similar?

I feel like for me, when I was working in a chemistry lab, and then, made myself believe that there is some prion danger, I was 'conjuring' the fear myself. I wanted to isolate 'dangerous' things. I was sometimes even scared of touching random things inside my flat (I was the only locator there, so that was pretty dumb).

My brain learnt that 'there is something to be scared of' and didn't want me to touch walls, cabinets etc. It was even scared when water from washing hands splashed on some random objects (because it might splash back to me somehow).

At some point, with the help of medication therapy and changing the environment, my brain just stopped tagging objects as dangerous. I gradually started washing dishes normally etc etc. I could accept randomly bumping into chairs.

It was a long long process. I could occasionally get some hygienic 'icks' when I cleaned everything and I forgot one object or touched some stuff with dirty laundry.

I noticed before my period my brain gets into a panicked state and again starts fearing cluttered stuff without a reason and that's where the icks come from.

The point is that my OCD therapist expected me to be scared. When I didn't believe the thing is related to prions I wasn't always scared. I could touch a balcony with black soot on it and wasn't scared at all. They wanted me to touch things that I'm scared of and discuss the fear.

I knew that what produced the ick was mostly me behaving like it was icky. So it was kind of hard for me, because if I was better, why conjure fear on purpose?

I might however be scared, for example of my laundry basket for no reason (or it was a memory from when I thought the chemical agents are really there). Or the storage room, where dirty clothes were mixed with clean, it was dusty etc.

I would rather do the exposures in the therapist's office for that reason. It was safer in a separated space (I moved out and it had to be online). In my living space, if it went well, I could ignore it. If it went bad it could erase a lot of progress, I felt. One time I panicked after touching stuff in the kitchen with a laundry basket. My boyfriend was cooking there normally. I wouldn't enter the kitchen until we washed all of the surfaces and all of the bajilion spice bottles he touched by that time.

For me, the most fear-inducing behaviour was walking in the flat, that I considered 'fine' and avoiding touching clean things with dirty things. If I behaved normally I might even get accustomed to touching things and be less scared the next time. Sitting half an hour and discussing that felt like exaggerating the fear.

I did leave the remainders of ick as it was one time. It did fade a bit with time, but I still felt like 'it was there' until the next cleaning.

Has anyone experienced something similar?

I have noticed that my OCD tends to worsen when I live alone. It started with fears of prions and the clothes I had worn in the hospital, and gradually expanded to fears of contamination spreading through indirect contact, such as furniture corners, water splashes, and droplets transferring contamination further. At its worst, I would wash my hands up to my elbows and wipe surfaces with paper towels, and it could feel as if contamination was present everywhere, making it difficult to use spaces like the kitchen or bathroom normally.

Because of this experience, I felt ambivalent about doing exposure exercises at home. After starting medication, my condition improved dramatically. For me, the home environment is also where OCD has previously escalated the most. I was not particularly fearful of public spaces. Rather, my fears were linked to specific associations such as hospitals or prion-related contamination. I was worried that certain exposures might trigger a “spillover effect.” It had been very severe previously, and if I touched something with “dirty hands,” I would later become afraid even if my hair or T-shirt came into contact with that space. It significantly interfered with my ability to function.

At the same time, I have noticed that I respond better to gradual, smaller steps that allow me to continue using my home and daily spaces. I seem to do better when changes are slow and contained, rather than when exposures feel too intense or open-ended, as this can disrupt my overall functioning.

I have noticed that my OCD tends to significantly worsen when I live alone. I developed a fear of prions and became afraid of the clothes I had worn in the medical facilities. Over time, this fear expanded to more and more situations. For example, I began to fear furniture corners if I was not sure whether I had touched them after contacting something “dangerous.” I would wash my hands and then become worried that water splashes might reach something “dirty,” which could in turn contaminate laundry and other items.

The concerns became more and more complex, including thinking about the trajectory of droplets and whether they could enter wardrobes through small cracks in the door.

I used to wash my hands up to my elbows and clean surfaces with paper towels. It could feel as if the “contamination” was present everywhere, making it difficult for me to use spaces such as the kitchen or bathroom in a normal way. The “spillover of contamination” refers to a process in which contact with one perceived “dirty” object leads to other objects feeling contaminated as well, due to indirect transfer (e.g., through hands, clothing, or movement through space).

At the same time, I was using pyrethroid-based anti-moth products (clothes moth hangers), and I suspect they might have worsened my condition. However, the worsening of my OCD began before I first used them.

"I was afraid of substance A because I had worked in a chemistry lab. I became afraid of my work clothes, washed things excessively, and my fears gradually spread to other objects."

"Are you also afraid of public toilets?"

"Not at all."

It made me wonder: if OCD develops after working in a genuinely hazardous environment, is it still "just" OCD, or is it more like OCD with a trauma component?

I think this situation can be different from the examples people often associate with contamination OCD. Sometimes there is a very clear starting point. The person isn't necessarily afraid of "dirt" in general—they're afraid of something that was once a realistic danger, such as a toxic chemical.

I think that situation can be very tricky. At least for me, touching objects from that period was the last thing I wanted to do. I actually think it helped to create a kind of bottleneck: thoroughly cleaning or discarding items that were genuinely associated with the lab, so my brain could eventually learn that ordinary dirt is just dirt, not a dangerous chemical. I don't mean endless compulsive cleaning, but removing realistic sources of uncertainty.

My fear had generalized. At first it was the things from the lab. Then it became the things that had touched those things, and then the things that had touched those things. At one point I was even afraid of touching the bus that took me to work, because it felt connected to the lab.

Eventually, constantly trying to avoid that bus became exhausting. One day I touched it anyway, and over time I became desensitized. Later I moved out, and the intensity of the fear decreased significantly. I wasn't in therapy at the time. There was some natural exposure happening, but I still remained cautious around what I considered the original source.

Writing it, because I encountered a few people with a similar story.

My therapist wondered whether my parents, when helping to clean my home, were arranging things symmetrically (they weren't). The therapist was concerned because, in the context of OCD, "cleaning" and "help" are two of the most suspicious words.

I just wish the therapist knew how hard I had resisted anyone touching my stuff that had been in the lab. Or how much I had cleaned after someone entered my flat and moved my belongings without my permission (my family had keys at that point).

I think some people can relate to that. In a way, letting people into my space might actually be overcoming a barrier.

So, my OCD sometimes gets worse when I'm not taking medication. Most of the time I'm doing pretty well. I wrote before that I sometimes relapse.

One thing I've noticed is that many descriptions of contamination OCD say that cleaning brings relief. But for me, cleaning also means touching the contamination. Sometimes that's completely fine. However, when my brain chemistry is "out of whack," I become nervous about it. I become super aware of every "dirty" thing my body is touching. Then, if I accidentally touch something clean, I feel the need to "clean" that as well.

My brain goes into a weird state, almost like a trance. I have to clean very slowly and carefully, otherwise my brain won't accept that something is clean. Sometimes I repeat cleaning the same object multiple times (similar to "just-right" OCD). I wipe surfaces with a wet tissue, but if I feel a few water droplets fall from my hands or the tissue onto my body, I feel like they will splash back onto the object and make it dirty again.

It's generally very tiring and anxiety-inducing.

Is this a typical symptom? Sometimes I wonder if I have some next-level contamination OCD, or maybe it's a combination of contamination OCD and "just-right" OCD.

Anyway, I've found a few ways to improve it, and I'd love to discuss them if anyone has similar experiences.

So, my OCD sometimes gets worse when I'm not taking medication. Most of the time I'm doing pretty well. I wrote before that I sometimes relapse.

One thing I've noticed is that many descriptions of contamination OCD say that cleaning brings relief. But for me, cleaning also means touching the contamination. Sometimes that's completely fine. However, when my brain chemistry is "out of whack," I become nervous about it. I become super aware of every "dirty" thing my body is touching. Then, if I accidentally touch something clean, I feel the need to "clean" that as well.

My brain goes into a weird state, almost like a trance. I have to clean very slowly and carefully, otherwise my brain won't accept that something is clean. Sometimes I repeat cleaning the same object multiple times (similar to "just-right" OCD). I wipe surfaces with a wet tissue, but if I feel a few water droplets fall from my hands or the tissue onto my body, I feel like they will splash back onto the object and make it dirty again.

It's generally very tiring and anxiety-inducing.

Is this a typical symptom? Sometimes I wonder if I have some next-level contamination OCD, or maybe it's a combination of contamination OCD and "just-right" OCD.

Anyway, I've found a few ways to improve it, and I'd love to discuss them if anyone has similar experiences.

I once wrote that, for me, contamination is either "yes" or "no," but I think I actually have three degrees of cleanliness.

0 is clean, 2 is "ick," but there is something in between. It's not really scary, but it still makes me think, "Let's wash my hands after touching that."

I'm trying to work on that middle category and teach myself that I can safely touch surfaces, doors, and other everyday objects. It's tricky because I do need some level of cleanliness (for example, no dust or food residue), but at the same time, being \*too\* focused on hygiene can trigger my OCD and activate this "there's something dangerous" response.

If something is a 2, I usually try to get accustomed to it through exposure. Unfortunately, sometimes I still feel the need to "neutralise" it.

Sometimes, though, the "ick" spreads. Someone once described it as being "sticky," and I think that perfectly captures its nature. That's why I was hesitant about doing therapy online. I would have had to do exposures at home, and I was afraid of what would happen if things got out of control.

Again, things had been going well so far, but when I'm on PMS, I guess my brain chemistry changes. I believe serotonin levels are lower. According to some sources serotonin helps regulate the stress response and can dampen the effects of adrenaline. When serotonin is lower, my body seems to stay in a more anxious state, and then any touch or any uncertain surface can make me feel scared. My brain remembers that feeling, and it gets amplified—possibly through overreacting, overcleaning, and other compulsions.

I once wrote that, for me, contamination is either "yes" or "no," but I think I actually have three degrees of cleanliness.

0 is clean, 2 is "ick," but there is something in between. It's not really scary, but it still makes me think, "Let's wash my hands after touching that."

I'm trying to work on that middle category and teach myself that I can safely touch surfaces, doors, and other everyday objects. It's tricky because I do need some level of cleanliness (for example, no dust or food residue), but at the same time, being *too* focused on hygiene can trigger my OCD and activate this "there's something dangerous" response.

If something is a 2, I usually try to get accustomed to it through exposure. Unfortunately, sometimes I still feel the need to "neutralise" it.

Sometimes, though, the "ick" spreads. ChatGPT once described it as being "sticky," and I think that perfectly captures its nature. That's why I was hesitant about doing therapy online. I would have had to do exposures at home, and I was afraid of what would happen if things got out of control.

Again, things had been going well so far, but when I'm on PMS, I guess my brain chemistry changes. I believe serotonin levels are lower. ChatGPT once explained to me that serotonin helps regulate the stress response and can dampen the effects of adrenaline. When serotonin is lower, my body seems to stay in a more anxious state, and then any touch or any uncertain surface can make me feel scared. My brain remembers that feeling, and it gets amplified—possibly through overreacting, overcleaning, and other compulsions.

So, according to the "rules," helping people with OCD is bad. Avoiding certain activities is bad. But doing compulsions is also bad.

It can create a bit of a conflict. For people with contamination OCD, dirt is scary. Cleaning can be scary as well. So, on the one hand, they shouldn't avoid cleaning. On the other hand, cleaning itself can become a compulsion, so they also shouldn't clean excessively.

In ERP, people are encouraged to touch the dirt and not react. I understand the idea behind it, and it can bring a great amount of relief.

The difficult part, which I think some people without OCD might not see, is that even if someone has OCD, if they live alone they still have to wash their pants. They have to make a sandwich and drink a cup of tea. If the cupboards and other everyday objects make them feel afraid, daily life can become extremely difficult. Instead of becoming more relaxed, they just get more and more frightened, and eventually nothing feels clean anymore because everything has touched something else at some point.

Imagine person A, who has severe OCD and lives alone. They have a very dusty attic. They can't clean it because it triggers compulsions, but they also can't leave it as it is. In that situation, I don't think asking someone to clean the attic for them is necessarily a bad idea, as long as the goal is for person A to gradually become comfortable maintaining it themselves in a healthy way. The attic is a metaphor for life.

For me, healthy habits are the key. If I learn that the kitchen cupboard handles are clean, I'm much more likely to touch them and cook. Cooking is very rewarding for me. I might accidentally splash water on myself and learn that nothing happens. I feel safer. I have to wash the dishes anyway. The first time might be scary. By the tenth time, I'll remember that nothing bad happened.

For me, the biggest risk is when I accidentally overreact. I pick up the laundry. Then I touch the wall. Then I wash the wall. Then I feel like there's something dangerous there, and I need to do something about it. That's the pattern that makes my OCD worse.

A therapist can't come and do the laundry for you.

So, according to the "rules," helping people with OCD is bad. Avoiding certain activities is bad. But doing compulsions is also bad.

It can create a bit of a conflict. For people with contamination OCD, dirt is scary. Cleaning can be scary as well. So, on the one hand, they shouldn't avoid cleaning. On the other hand, cleaning itself can become a compulsion, so they also shouldn't clean excessively.

In ERP, people are encouraged to touch the dirt and not react. I understand the idea behind it, and it can bring a great amount of relief.

The difficult part, which I think some people without OCD might not see, is that even if someone has OCD, if they live alone they still have to wash their pants. They have to make a sandwich and drink a cup of tea. If the cupboards and other everyday objects make them feel afraid, daily life can become extremely difficult. Instead of becoming more relaxed, they just get more and more frightened, and eventually nothing feels clean anymore because everything has touched something else at some point.

Imagine person A, who has severe OCD and lives alone. They have a very dusty attic. They can't clean it because it triggers compulsions, but they also can't leave it as it is. In that situation, I don't think asking someone to clean the attic for them is necessarily a bad idea, as long as the goal is for person A to gradually become comfortable maintaining it themselves in a healthy way. The attic is a metaphor for life.

For me, healthy habits are the key. If I learn that the kitchen cupboard handles are clean, I'm much more likely to touch them and cook. Cooking is very rewarding for me. I might accidentally splash water on myself and learn that nothing happens. I feel safer. I have to wash the dishes anyway. The first time might be scary. By the tenth time, I'll remember that nothing bad happened.

For me, the biggest risk is when I accidentally overreact. I pick up the laundry. Then I touch the wall. Then I wash the wall. Then I feel like there's something dangerous there, and I need to do something about it. That's the pattern that makes my OCD worse.

A therapist can't come and do the laundry for you.