What's up, rep fam? Today we're answering the question that's been haunting everyone out there:

Who makes the best 12-series Submariner?

u/Savoury from RWI gathered 7 watches – ARF, CPLUS, GEN, QF, RICH, RWF, and VSF – and put them through the wringer. Case, bezel, dial, hands, crystal, date, movement, crown, bracelet, and even price got scored. I include here a massive photo album so you can see with your eyes and judge based on your preferences.

350 points up for grabs. No bias. No brand loyalty. Just cold, hard facts... and a few questionable metaphors.

Let's get into it.

The Methodology

He didn't care who built it nor about Rolex's R&D budget or their history. The only question: Who makes the best Sub right now, for your money?

Every watch judged by the same criteria. Gen included, because where's the fun otherwise?

Points awarded per category. Some weigh more than others. Price is factored in because we compare everything else that way

Case – The Suit

If the dial is the face, the case is the suit. And honestly? The air is thin up here. From 30cm away, you won't spot a difference.

Winner: GEN (80/90) – but not perfect. RICH and VSF are right on its heels (77/90 each). Some reps actually have better brushing in certain spots. Funny how that works.

Factory	Score (90)
ARF	72
CPLUS	73
GEN	80
QF	62
RICH	77
RWF	72
VSF	77

Dimensions

No points here. But for the data nerds:

ARF	CPLUS	GEN	QF	RICH	RWF	VSF
Thickness (mm)	12.6	12.5	12.4	12.7	12.4	12.5
Diameter (mm)	40.5	40.5	40.5	40.5	40.5	40.5
Weight (g)	156.3	156.4	158.9	161.1	157.6	156.4

All within a hair's breadth. Literally.

Dial – The Face

Remember the floating "m"? Those days are over. Now we're arguing about the tiny little schlong sticking out of the top-left corner of the m. 😄

Observations:

• GEN print is the "chubby" one – slightly compressed, not exactly elegant.
• VSF and RICH have the most 3D appearance.
• RICH actually lacks the little protrusion on the "m", and honestly, it looks cleaner.
• The coronet at 6 o'clock is FAT on the gen

Winner: VSF (37/40), with RICH and GEN tied at 36/40.

Factory	Score (40)
ARF	34
CPLUS	30
GEN	36
QF	30
RICH	36
RWF	30
VSF	37

Hands

Even Rolex is just cooking with water. Stamp marks visible on gen too.

What stood out:

• CPLUS and RWF have extremely fine edges, genuinely excellent.
• VSF is a bit too sharp for his taste.
• Center pinion: ARF and RICH do it best. VSF is closest to gen but creates a "bullseye" look.

Winner: CPLUS and RWF tie (10/10 each).

Factory	Score (10)
ARF	8
CPLUS	10
GEN	9
QF	8
RICH	9
RWF	10
VSF	8

Bezel – The Eyebrows & Jawline

This is where the wheat separates from the chaff. Especially the pearl.

Pearl breakdown:

• ARF: Glue residue, sits too high.
• CPLUS: Weird color, oversized frame.
• GEN: Dent in the frame, but edge is beautifully defined.
• QF: Too rounded, pip too "full."
• RICH: Sharply defined, pip not bulbous – excellent.
• RWF: Pip looks like it shrunk in the wash.
• VSF: Very similar to RICH, also excellent.

Winner: VSF (37/40), with RICH and GEN tied at 36/40.

Factory	Score (40)
ARF	30
CPLUS	31
GEN	36
QF	31
RICH	36
RWF	31
VSF	37

Crystal

Just some cool observations:

LEC (Laser-Etched Crown) tells you a lot about the AR coating.

• Blue AR tint? VSF wins – reflects noticeably less.
• Neutral AR? RICH takes it, edging out QF.

Both are "correct" as even gen varies.

Date – The Window & The Print

Texture comparison:

• GEN: Its gen, what else to add?
• ARF: Subtle, clean edges, glossy print.
• CPLUS: Eggshell texture, frayed edges.
• QF: Rough, messy, with black specks.
• RICH: Deliberately textured, sharp edges, thick print.
• RWF: Damn close to gen, but numbers look like they were painted by someone with a tremor (may be a QC issue).
• VSF: Eel-smooth.

Winner: RICH (35/40).

Factory	Score (40)
ARF	31
CPLUS	32
GEN	33
QF	31
RICH	35
RWF	31
VSF	29

Movement

Closed caseback, so this is mostly aesthetics.

Quick takes:

• DD3235 has a solid rep for reliability.
• JH3235 is too new to judge long-term.
• SH... well, it's SH.

Aesthetics winner: GEN (10/10) – obviously. Best clone finish: JH3235 base + RWF rotor would be the dream combo.

Factory	Score (10)
ARF (SH3235)	8
CPLUS (DD3235)	8
GEN	10
QF	7
RICH (JH3235)	9
RWF	8
VSF (VS3235)	7

Crown

Genuine isn't always better.

• RICH: Sharply defined, tips are cleaner and crisper than gen.
• VSF: Beautifully formed "bumps."
• GEN: Has depth, but RICH edges it out.

Winner: RICH, VSF, and GEN tie (18/20).

Factory	Score (20)
ARF	16
CPLUS	17
GEN	18
QF	16
RICH	18
RWF	17
VSF	18

Bracelet & Clasp

The part that's on your wrist 24/7. Brushing? Everyone's pretty much indistinguishable from gen now.

Where things fall apart:

• Screws: Visible tool marks on many. Some have "halos" around the slots from post-polishing.
• VSF clasp has a visible weld seam inside. Why? God knows.
• QF still has rust issues (same as their GMTs).
• Glidelock: RICH is too tight, overdone tolerances. ARF and QF feel rough.

Winner: CPLUS, GEN, RICH, RWF tie (80/90).

Factory	Score (90)
ARF	76
CPLUS	80
GEN	80
QF	73
RICH	80
RWF	80
VSF	79

Price – The Elephant in the Room

Factory	Price (approx.)	Rating
ARF	$500	10/10
CPLUS	$500	10/10
GEN	$11,000+	2/10
QF	$500	10/10
RICH	$500	10/10
RWF	$500	10/10
VSF	$500	10/10

Final Scores

Factory	Total (340)
🥇 RICH	310
🥈 GEN	304
🥉 VSF	302
4. CPLUS	291
5. RWF	289
6. ARF	285
7. QF	268

A remarkably close finish. RICH takes the crown on the scorecard thanks to strong all-around performance and unbeatable value.

The takeaway? If you want the "closest to gen" without considering price, GEN wins most of the time. But if value matters? RICH and VSF are the kings.

The Verdict

There is no single "best" Submariner.

The best one is the one that fits your taste, your priorities, and your budget. For Savoury RICH took it on value and finishing. For others, VSF's crystal and dial win. Some still swear by Clean.

Quick Comparison Table

Feature	GEN	RICH (🥇)	VSF (🥈)	CPLUS
Case Score	80/90	77/90	77/90	73/90
Bezel Score	36/40	36/40	37/40	31/40
Dial Score	36/40	36/40	37/40	30/40
Hands Score	9/10	9/10	8/10	10/10
Date Score	33/40	35/40	29/40	32/40
Movement	10/10 (gen)	9/10 (JH3235)	7/10 (VS3235)	8/10 (DD3235)
Crown Score	18/20	18/20	18/20	17/20
Bracelet Score	80/90	80/90	79/90	80/90
Price Rating	2/10	10/10	10/10	10/10
TOTAL	304	310	302	291

So, who has the best Sub?

Honestly? You decide. That's the beauty of this hobby.

Now go check your QC pics, buy from Trusted Dealers, and enjoy the watch that makes you happy.

What’s up, rep fam? Long time no see. After numerous reviews and comparisons shared here on the sub, like this one and this one, today we’re looking at the RWF take on the GMT-Master II 126710GRNR, better known around these parts as the "Bruce Wayne."

RWF is stepping up their game lately, and now they’re dropping this with the JH3285 movement, free-sprung balance included. Let’s see if it lives up to the hype.

Case & Dimensions

• Diameter: 40mm
• Thickness: ~12mm
• Material: Stainless steel
• Bracelet: Jubilee

The case feels solid and modern. No sharp edges digging into your wrist. The crown guards are shaped nicely, lugs flow well into the bracelet, and the rehaut engraving is clean and aligned. Finishing is consistent all around. Polished sides are shiny, brushed tops are even. Honestly, it feels premium in hand.

Dial & Hands

Classic glossy black dial, just deep black with crisp white and green printing. The ROLEX coronet is sharp, the text is legible, and the applied markers are evenly placed. Lume fill looks tidy.

Hands: Proportionally correct. Under macro, you'll see they're still rep hands (minor sharp edges if you really squint), but here's the kicker: the green paint on the GMT hand is actually better finished than on the gen. The green hand adds just the right pop of color to an otherwise monochrome watch. Without it, this thing would be too stealthy.

Bezel

The grey is tricky. No factory has gotten it 100% perfect yet because gen has a semi-transparent, deep quality to it. RWF’s grey looks convincing, especially in sunlight where the contrast pops more. Inside, it's subtler. The insert is glossy, numerals are filled cleanly, and the 24-hour scale is easy to read.

Bezel action? Solid. No wobble, no backplay. For those who know the famous Clean Factory bezel fix, you won't need it here. Clicks are satisfying, and alignment at 12 is spot-on. Still, always check bezel alignment in QC, as a misaligned GMT bezel will haunt you forever.

Crystal & Cyclops

The crystal is clear and doesn't wash out the dial. The Cyclops is centered, and date magnification looks good. Is it the absolute best crystal on the market? Nah. VSF and Deep crystals still hold the crown. But for stock? It’s totally fine. No milky haze, good readability.

Movement & Crown

Here’s the juicy part: JH3285 movement with a free-sprung balance wheel.

This is a big deal for a GMT rep. The jumping local hour hand works flawlessly with no hesitation and no slop. Winding feels buttery smooth, date flips cleanly via the hour jump, and hacking seconds works as expected.

Crown: Screws down smoothly. No gritty threads. If yours feels crunchy, clean the threads or try the waxed dental floss trick.

The catch: Free-sprung is great for accuracy and "gen-feel," but it's a nightmare for beginners to regulate. If it runs well, don't touch it. If it's off, take it to a modder who knows these clone movements. This isn't your standard NH35.

Bracelet & Clasp

Jubilee bracelet on this model is a match made in heaven. It wraps around the wrist comfortably, adds a bit of flash with those polished center links, but stays understated thanks to the brushed outer links.

SEL fitment is clean, no huge gaps or weird steps.

Clasp: Solid click, secure lock. The coronet engraving looks good. Easylink extension works smoothly right out of the box. Overall, the bracelet feels great, no sharp edges digging in.

Pros & Cons

Pros:

• Modern, low-key black/grey colorway
• Sharp case finishing and solid proportions
• Clean dial and crisp printing
• GMT hand paint is surprisingly well-done (better than gen, allegedly)
• JH3285 with free-sprung balance

Cons:

• Free-sprung movement = not beginner-friendly for regulation
• Grey bezel color still isn't 100% gen-like (tough to replicate)

Verdict

RWF knocked it out of the park with this one. The "Bruce Wayne" isn't trying to win you over with flashy colors, it wins you over with wearability, solid mechanics, and that IYKYK subtle flex. The JH3285 movement gives it a serious technical edge, and the overall finishing is on par with the big players.

Just keep your QC eyes peeled: check bezel alignment, datewheel centering, rehaut, SELs, and that clasp coronet. And for the love of all that is holy, don't try to regulate that free-sprung balance yourself unless you know what you're doing.

RWF is building a strong reputation. I'm curious to see what they drop next.

Gen vs. RWF Comparison Table

Feature	Genuine 126710GRNR	RWF Rep 126710GRNR
Case Diameter	40mm	40mm
Thickness	~12mm	~12mm
Material	904L Oystersteel	Stainless Steel
Bezel Color	Black/Grey (semi-transparent look)	Black/Grey (close, but not 100% perfect)
Bezel Action	Bidirectional, crisp	Solid, no wobble, aligned
Crystal	AR-coated sapphire, clear Cyclops	Clear, Cyclops centered - good, but not top-tier
Movement	Rolex Cal. 3285 (free-sprung)	JH3285 Clone (free-sprung)
Power Reserve	~70 hours	~70 hours
Dial	Glossy black, sharp printing	Crisp printing, deep black
Rehaut	Laser-engraved, aligned	Clean and aligned
Bracelet	Jubilee, 904L	Jubilee, smooth & comfortable
Clasp	Crisp coronet engraving	Solid click

Got one on the way? Let me know how yours looks in QC. Pictures are a courtesy of derjenigewelcher at RWI. And remember: buy from Trusted Dealers only. Stay safe, fam.

Pictures are courtesy of our TD DDGTOP, go hit him up if you want to purchase any of these models.

I have seen 3CF has started producing these beautiful Black Bay GMTs and I can’t wait to see some in hand pictures. From these pics, quality looks on par with ZF, but index alignment is WAY better. Only “issue” is that the green version is a fantasy piece, I’m afraid.

What do you guys think?

My dad has been a watch fanatic and collector for many decades. He has collected many tier of watches during the years, and is a small fan of Rolex (I mean, who isn’t?). He owns some gens and, since the YM 42 in Titanium got released, he’s been dreaming of owning one. 22k€ seems a bit high for a “not so great” model, and I’ve shown him some pictures of high end replicas.

He thought reps were “some nasty Chinese bad looking piece of garbage”, like the ones you find on the streets. When he saw what these factories are capable of, he was more than interested in seeing himself.

I got him this VF (rip 🥺) Yacht Master 42 in titanium from Leo. Great service, QC came super fast and he’s a cool dude to talk to. Leo is one of our TDs for a good reason: his service is top notch.

Anyways, in a couple of weeks he got the watch and he couldn’t believe it! It looks spot on and it even feels very good on wrist. Weights like gen (the lighter feel is weird at first, his words) and wear like gen. As a watch collector with many years of “experience” he said he would not be able to tell that it is a rep, not even having it in hand. He’s definitely happy, I think I might have hooked him up on reps now!

After a long time, we are very happy to announce that another awesome dealer is joining the sub!

Andiot Watches is a very famous, trusted, and highly appreciated TD in the community. He offers great value along with solid modding services. He also has an active Telegram group where you can see his latest stock and updates!

Dealer Info

• Name: Andiot Watches
• Price Level: MEDIUM
• WeChat: andiot2022
• WhatsApp: +44 7577 138632
• Signal: Andiotwatches.2012
• Email: andiotwatches2012@gmail.com
• Website
• Telegram
• Telegram Group
• Payment Methods: Wise, Revolut, Remitly, Crypto-currency
• Insurance: ✅ Yes – remember to ask!
• Modding Services: ✅ Yes
• RWI Trusted Dealer: ✅ Yes – RWI thread here

If anyone here has already bought from him, feel free to share your experience below!

I crosspost here this very useful comparison made by Ethan on the new Ombré dial

Just got QC pics from Duke for this ARF Pepsi I got from him. The watch looks pristine, I can’t spot a single issue. Timegrapher numbers are a bit off but I won’t risk to RL just for movement numbers. What do you guys think?

Btw I went with ARF for bracelet quality, which compared to VSF is much much better

Hi everyone, Ethan here 👋

Continuing my weekly comparison series, this time I’m taking a look at the Submariner 41 “Starbucks” (Ref. 126610LV) across a few different versions — including both MKI and MKII bezel variations.

For reference, the gen 126610LV comes in at 41mm case size and roughly ~155g with full links.

The versions here are:

RF – MKII bezel, JH3235 (free sprung movement)

Gold – MKII bezel, JH3235 (free sprung movement)

VF – MKI bezel, DD3235

VSF – MKI bezel, DD3235

PPF is now producing the marvellous Vacheron Constantin 222 in gold! Can’t wait to see in hand shots.

Picture courtesy of Leo from TimeUltra

Just got the package from DDG, he really is Top! Ordered this Omega 210.22.42.20.01.004 from ORF (VSF was very hard to find) and I can’t complain at all. Paid on 19th April, he shipped the next day and in less than 2 weeks it’s here. I’m very very happy with my purchase, will post more pics once I get it seized correctly!

What do you guys think? It’s a very peculiar watch but it looks stunning

VSF 2026 Datejust preview is starting to circulate, with pre-orders already open for both 36mm and 41mm models.

These pieces are said to feature the Dandong 3235 integrated movement and come with a gradient green dial designed to match the original “enameled” look as closely as possible. As always, the focus seems to be on improving overall finishing and visual accuracy.

Looks like another step forward from VSF! Curious to see how these compare to EWE or ERF once they’re in hand.

Congratulations to our winner u/JonasPistolas8 ! 🥳

You’ve won the ARF GMT Master II “Rootbeer” from DDGTOP — an absolute beauty. 🔥

Please reach out to us via mod mail or send a message directly to the subreddit mods to claim your prize and arrange the next steps.

Thanks to everyone who participated, and stay tuned for more raffles coming soon!

The short story: VF Factory claims they’ve taken over some of Clean Factory’s production lines for this model. Clean had Patek and AP in the pipeline, so let's see if the magic carried over. Spoiler: it mostly did.

Watch Info

Model: Patek Philippe Nautilus 5711/1A-010 (blue gradient dial)
Factory: VF (Victory Factory) Movement: 324 super clone (non free-sprung)
Size: 40mm diameter, 8.5mm thick
Crystal: Sapphire

Case & Bezel

Bezel is a strong point. Chamfers = crisp. Polished sections = nicely mirrored. Brushed top surface = has depth. Case profile tapers elegantly to the lugs (I can’t spot any difference from gen here). The crown has a 3D Calatrava cross. No complaints.

Dial & Hands

The blue sunburst gradient is the star. Dark outer ring fading to lighter center – smooth as butter. Horizontal embossing lines are subtle and catch light just like the big boys do.

Applied markers: aligned, polished, faceted correctly, and filled with lume.
Date window at 3 is cleanly framed, black font pops nicely on white background.
Hands are baton-style with lume. Seconds hand sweeps smoothly (28,800bph – no tick). Hour/minute hands have correct length and polish.
“PATEK PHILIPPE” and “GENEVE” printing is sharp, no blurring.

Overall: Dial ranks among the best current 5711 reps. Clean wouldn’t have put out junk, and VF seems to have inherited that standard.

Bracelet & Clasp

Bracelet integrates seamlessly. Links are solid, brushed centers with polished edges. End links fit flush to the case. Comfort is high – no sharp edges digging in.
BUT: Clasp edges are slightly sharper than the rest of the bracelet (maybe a different supplier). Not a dealbreaker – still comfortable to wear. Clasp engraving (Calatrava cross + text) is well done.

Movement & Crown

The 324 clone movement has the best stock factory engravings I’ve seen so far. Seriously good-looking.

The rotor is loud. Is that a flaw? Gen Pateks are actually loud too compared to Rolex movements. Still, it’s noticeable. A silencing mod would require adjusting springs and adding grease to ball bearings. If it bothers you, a watchmaker can help.

Open caseback lets you see that beautiful engraving. Serviceability is decent with standard tools.

Pros ✅

• Gorgeous dial gradient + texture
• Strong case & bracelet finishing
• Comfortable wearability
• Best-in-class stock movement engravings
• Smooth winding

Cons ❌

• Rotor is loud (but gen-like loud, still annoying to some)
• Clasp a bit sharp out of the box

Conclusion

VF’s 5711 is a serious contender for best Nautilus rep out of the box right now. If you want a killer dial, solid build, nicely engraved movement, and daily wearability without breaking the bank, this is hard to beat. It edges out older factories in consistency and feel.

Just don’t expect dead-quiet rotor – that’s a Patek thing.

Gen vs. VF Comparison Table

Feature	Genuine Patek 5711	VF 5711
Diameter	40mm	40mm
Thickness	8.3mm	8.5mm
Material	316L stainless steel	316L stainless steel
Dial	Blue gradient sunburst with horizontal embossing	Excellent gradient + fine embossing ✅
Markers	White gold, faceted, lumed	Polished, faceted, well aligned
Hands	Baton-style with lume	Correct length & polish
Crystal	Sapphire with AR	Sapphire
Movement	Caliber 324 SC (free-sprung)	324 clone (non free-sprung)
Rotor Noise	Noticeable (gen is loud too)	Noticeable – similar to gen
Power Reserve	~45 hours	~40-45 hours (typical)
Bracelet	Integrated, brushed/polished centers	Solid, good finish
Clasp	Crisp engraving, smooth	Slightly sharp edges, good engraving
Water Resistance	120m	50m (claimed – don’t swim with reps)
Price	$60k+ used	~$558

Credits to derjenigewelcher from RWI for the close-up pictures!

Got feedback or corrections? I’m not a Patek expert – drop a comment. And as always, buy from Trusted Dealers only. Don’t get scammed by fake sites.