u/Environmental-Cod25

Did I really catch body lice in the Pakistani mountains? 25 years later, I STILL don't know.

'Sahaab, the man in the pharmacy is calling you.'

I heard the squeak behind me and turned.

'Sahaab, in the pharmacy, over there,' said the teenager, pointing enthusiastically at a small shop. I did not know what to make of this but walked slowly over towards the sign that announced that the proprietor was a Master of Greek Medicine and Homoeopathy. As I approached the concrete steps up to the door, it tingled open and a small, dark-skinned man stood at the top, giving me an avuncular smile. 

'Did you call for me?' I rasped. Although the air had thickened during the descent and I was only at about nine thousand feet, those three concrete steps up into the pharmacy had to be taken slowly. My skin was tingling, and I guessed it was because of the higher levels of oxygen. I had just had my first night of restful sleep after the dreams of suffocation. 

I felt a warm hand on my shoulder as I was practically lullabied into the shop.

The first thing I saw were the fantastical shelves and the exotic word, ‘apothecary’ leaped to mind. The old shelves, which might have been painted white by an ancestor, were cracked and some of the plywood curling. Balancing on top, looking infinitely fragile, and making me suddenly slow down so as not to knock anything over, were bottles and jars in dark purples, stained browns and rose reds. Nothing was labelled; all the bottles seemed to be full of powders or liquids that strained to let forth an explosion of smells and serendipitous healing. 

‘You have been sleeping at the Mubarak guesthouse?’ he asked me suddenly. 

I stared at the apothecary, at him nodding his thin eyebrows and shiny pate. I was confused. Had I forgotten to pay at the guesthouse? ‘I am not sure what it was called.’

‘Ahh… there is only one place to stay here. Did you come off the bus from Khunjerab last night?’

I nodded.

‘Good, Akbar will have taken you to Mubarak guesthouse. Did you sleep well?’

I was beginning to become mesmerised by his head, and wondered if it caught the light reflected off the bottles or whether it explained the way that some of them glinted back into the general gloom.

‘Why did you call me here? I need to take the bus to Pindi.’ I started to retreat, but did not hurry, desperately worried that I would knock something over. 

I remembered the stories that my mother told me about her family being from a long line of hakims, the masters of medical lore in her village near Faizabad in India. She first mentioned it after we had watched a news report on the television about the increase of heroin on the streets and in the penthouses in London. She was amused that such a fuss was being made by the British about a drug that had been stored in a large jar in her childhood kitchen for medicinal use. 

‘I need to catch that bus’, I repeated, almost making it out of the shop.

‘Are you itching?’

I stopped and turned back.

‘Are you not itching a little?’ he repeated.

In response, I clawed at my left hand, leaving white trail marks on my skin which had gone, over the year under the Pakistani sun, from a gentle beech to a dark, mahogany stain.

I looked at the chemist and he smiled. Pharmacist, chemist. Apothecary, charlatan. I felt a sudden tremor of movement in the small of my back and even as my hand moved there, I stopped forced it onto the pocket of my kurta. With my other hand, I clutched at my small canvas bag. ‘What are you talking about?’

‘You have body lice,’ he said sombrely.

I realised that my hands had moved to my thighs and that I was now scratching. 

‘Rubbish,’ I insisted and marched out of the shop. Back in the cool air that even at this altitude was pregnant with the promise of the smells of the plain, I relaxed and looked around for a place to have breakfast. In the distance, down the dirt track, ignoring the majestic snow-dusted peaks on my left, I heard the first bustles of the market place. But I was scratching and my brain told me that there were thousands of creepies crawling all over me, below my lip, behind my ear, in the crook of my knee. When I realised that my hand was slowly moving towards my crotch, I turned from the road and lumbered back, as fast as I could back into the pharmacy. 

I threw down a second razor and it skittered over the rough concrete floor, stopping in the soapy water that lay all around in small puddles. I called through the three inch gap above the small wooden door that would have come up to my shoulder had I been standing. A painfully thin arm was thrust through the gap and I took a third razor blade and continued hacking at the hair on my legs. I was soaking wet and sweating under it. 

There was no air and I felt the same suffocation that I had experienced when I was several thousand feet higher. No matter how hard I tapped the new razor on the brick walls, I could not dislodge the hair. Despite being shaped similarly to a Gillette disposable, it soon revealed itself to be a cheap local copy and became blunt. My legs were streaked with blood which had become diluted by soapy water and I was close to tears. 

‘Half an hour is nearly up, sahaab’, came a call from outside. 

‘I need more time,’ I screamed back, ‘a lot more time. I’ll pay.’

I had been persuaded that I did have lice. And that there was no way of getting rid of them without shaving my whole body and having my clothes boiled in a sulphurous, pink fluid that, I was assured, would kill off the lice and eggs. So here I sat, in a hamaam, a small washing room that was behind a barber’s shop which conveniently neighboured the pharmacy. I was in one of the tiny cubicles that seemed to be the size of a small cupboard, shaving, feeling miserable. 

My brain must have filed away the fact that the skin is the largest organ of the body and here and now it took on meaning. Another small patch of leg became clear of hair but I was having trouble breathing in the extreme humidity.

‘Give me a bucket of cold water’, I shouted through the door. A moment later, there was a tap and I unbolted it before squeezing myself into a corner so that my nakedness would not be seen. 

‘It is outside,’ came the call. The murmurs grew and soon I realised that the pharmacist and barber were firm friends. They chatted in Pushto and I could hear their respectful banter. 
After an hour, finding hair in places that I had not seen in years, when I had poked and prodded myself to make sure that no crevice was left unscraped, I  called for my clothes. When nobody replied, I looked out of the gap, into the glare of light, feeling cooler air dancing on my nose, I saw my clothes still in a metal bucket that sat on a rusting primus stove. It bubbled and a thin haze hung over the whole apparatus. The room smelled like a sweaty plastics factory and I felt more trapped than ever. 

Then three men walked into the room and started to laugh and as one of them pulled my clothes and my canvas bag out of the bucket. I sat back on the wooden stool and ladled some more cold water over myself. 

An hour later, my clothes, freshly ironed, were pushed through the gap, followed by my bag. I had been sweating for hours and now realised that my mouth was dry but I could not bear to ask for a drink, sitting among disgusting puddles and clumps of cut hair, discarded razor blades, small pools of blood, streaks of blood that had started to clot on my leg and turn dark in the gloom. And all the while the three voices, full of merriment came from outside.

The pharmacist and the barber; but I wondered who the third man was. 

I found somewhere vaguely clean to stand and managed to dress. When I finally opened the door onto the world, I saw him. At first, he looked relaxed, and then he looked at me looking at him and the conversation that he had been having with the barber and the pharmacist suddenly died. 

All three men came over, slapped me on the shoulder and asked if I felt better. My whole body was covered in sores, my clothes were pulling at the stubble on my body and I was in a hundred points of pain that amounted to agony. 

All three of them were ebullient until the third man noticed my forehead. ‘Your eyebrows,’ he squealed, pointing up at me. 

The barber and pharmacist looked aghast. But all I could do was to stare at this man. 

‘You really need to shave them off,’ exclaimed the barber. ‘Come, let me do it for you,’ he cooed. 

I shook my head. I was looking at the third man. I might have had lice. I might have had something else. Whatever it was, he would surely know.

It was Akbar. The same Akbar who had welcomed me so solicitously the night before into the guest house.

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 5 days ago

Nearly got lynched in north Pakistan because an American hadn't read the local etiquette and everyone thought I was his guide.

About 25 years ago, I got onto a minibus to travel in the far north of Pakistan. A white guy was trying to talk to the other passengers, asking them how far Naraan was. But, of course, he was speaking in English and no one understood him.

So I called him over and started to chat to him and told him what I knew of the route. He sat with me, relieved to find someone that spoke his language and asked me another 100 questions, which I was quite happy to answer.

All the other passengers noted that we were speaking in English.

None of this is remarkable.

About 3 hours into the journey, my American travelling friend spotted some young kids by the side of the road and waved to them - then he leaned past me (I had the window seat), and let out a loud whistle - no doubt to amuse the kids.

Well, about 5 minute later, I nearly got lynched because whistling at women is extremely taboo here (although I am not sure there were any women - just kids - but northern tribesmen are very protective and conservative in general).

Half the guys in the bus got up and surrounded us, looking very angry. All their anger was directed at me. Even the bus stopped with all the ruckus.

They kept asking why I hadn't told the guest to our country that whistling was disrespectful and shamed everyone. I kept saying that I didn't know him - but of course, they said I was speaking his language and I was his guide and so I was responsible.

So none of this anger goes to the American guy - why? Because he is a guest to the country, and you cannot criticise a guest - you only show them hospitality - so then I started getting fingers jabbing me in the chest - people are really pissed at me - I am shouting now - I tell them that I was just trying to help this traveller out by advising him - I even remind them that I got on the bus after way after him.

The American guy is stunned - he is wondering what I have done. I start to explain - and he doesn't understand - but hears the word 'guide' and now he seems to think that I want money for the advice I gave him.

It was only after I started shouting at everyone that they calmed down - eventually, one guy did confirm that the American had been on the bus for hours before I got on, so they calmed down and left me alone. The bus restarted.

The American got all sullen and I stopped caring about explaining anything to him. At the next stop, I got off, about 100km before my destination, and waited for another bus.

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 5 days ago

Not a front desk - but an American tourist in northern Pakistan nearly got me lynched because everyone assumed I was his guide

About 25 years ago, I got onto a minibus to travel in the far north of Pakistan. A white guy was trying to talk to the other passengers, asking them how far Naraan was. But, of course, he was speaking in English and no one understood him.

So I called him over and started to chat to him and told him what I knew of the route. He sat with me, relieved to find someone that spoke his language and asked me another 100 questions, which I was quite happy to answer.

All the other passengers noted that we were speaking in English.

None of this is remarkable.

About 3 hours into the journey, my American travelling friend spotted some young kids by the side of the road and waved to them - then he leaned past me (I had the window seat), and let out a loud whistle - no doubt to amuse the kids.

Well, about 5 minute later, I nearly got lynched because whistling at women is extremely taboo here (although I am not sure there were any women - just kids - but northern tribesmen are very protective and conservative in general).

Half the guys in the bus got up and surrounded us, looking very angry. All their anger was directed at me. Even the bus stopped with all the ruckus.

They kept asking why I hadn't told the guest to our country that whistling was disrespectful and shamed everyone. I kept saying that I didn't know him - but of course, they said I was speaking his language and I was his guide and so I was responsible.

So none of this anger goes to the American guy - why? Because he is a guest to the country, and you cannot criticise a guest - you only show them hospitality - so then I started getting fingers jabbing me in the chest - people are really pissed at me - I am shouting now - I tell them that I was just trying to help this traveller out by advising him - I even remind them that I got on the bus after way after him.

The American guy is stunned - he is wondering what I have done. I start to explain - and he doesn't understand - but hears the word 'guide' and now he seems to think that I want money for the advice I gave him.

It was only after I started shouting at everyone that they calmed down - eventually, one guy did confirm that the American had been on the bus for hours before I got on, so they calmed down and left me alone. The bus restarted.

The American got all sullen and I stopped caring about explaining anything to him. At the next stop, I got off, about 100km before my destination, and waited for another bus.

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 6 days ago
▲ 11 r/PakWatchEnthusiasts+1 crossposts

Master Copy - never heard this terminology before

I keep on seeing adverts for watches being described as 'Master Copy' here - I had to look this up to realise that they are just fakes.

I then asked Claude about this (bearing in mind it is AI, so not reliable, but what it told me is interesting):

"Master copy" is a euphemism the Pakistani (and broader South Asian) grey/black market developed to make counterfeits sound more legitimate and craftsman-like. It's essentially a fake, but the terminology creates a kind of plausible deniability.

The hierarchy they've invented

Sellers have created an entirely fictitious grading system to justify different price points:

  • First copy / A grade — basic fake, cheap materials, dies quickly
  • Super copy / AA — slightly better finishing
  • Master copy / AAA — supposedly the best fake, "indistinguishable from original"
  • Some sellers now even claim "Swiss made master copy" which is almost poetic in its audacity

None of these grades have any standardised meaning whatsoever. It's purely marketing language invented to extract more money.

Why "master copy" specifically

The word "copy" acknowledges it isn't original, which oddly makes it feel more honest to buyers. "Master" implies skilled craftsmanship. Together it sounds like a legitimate artisan product rather than a criminal counterfeit. It also gives the buyer psychological cover — they're not being "deceived," they knowingly bought a "copy."

The reality

  • The movements inside are usually cheap Chinese quartz regardless of what's on the dial
  • A fake Rolex master copy sold for 15,000-20,000 PKR is still just a fake
  • Quality is universally poor compared to even mid-range genuine watches
  • They often use stolen brand identity, fake serial numbers, and copied documentation

Why it thrives in Pakistan specifically

  • Genuine luxury watches are extremely expensive relative to incomes
  • Import duties make authentic watches even pricier
  • Social pressure to display status is significant, particularly at weddings and formal events
  • Enforcement of IP law is weak
  • The market is so established that it feels almost normalised

The fascinating sociological bit is that often everyone knows it's fake — the buyer, the seller, sometimes even the person receiving it as a gift — but the social performance of wearing a Rolex-shaped object is still considered worth something.

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 7 days ago

[HIRING] PowerPoint designer - job for a student

I WENT AWAY FOR A 90 MIN MEETING AND CAME BACK TO 130 DMs. PLEASE DO NOT DM ME NOW - I WILL REACTIVATE THIS ADVERT IF I DO NOT FIND ANYONE FROM THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN IN TOUCH.

IF YOU WERE IN TOUCH, BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS, IT MIGHT TAKE ME A DAY OR SO TO GET BACK TO YOU - DO NOT WORRY, I AM NOT IGNORING YOU.

THANKS ALL!

I run a couple of small part time consultancies in Karachi.

For Consultancy A, I need to make 2-3 slide decks a month to speak at webinars. 90% of the content is the same but they will need changes. The current deck is really ugly.

Consultancy B is a little more complex - I pitch to potential clients a couple of times a month and need bespoke slide decks (again, these are often 80% the same). I also teach 5 day courses and generate 350-500 slide decks - these need to be made interesting and engaging (but not the quality of pitch decks).

I am looking for someone, preferably a student, who has reasonable English and can learn how to use PPT efficiently (happy to pay for them to spend a fortnight learning from YouTube or design courses on Udemy).

I will also give you access to a pro Canva account to build the basic design and background of the slides.

After this, I will pay the equivalent of PKR1k/hr (although a lot of work we will cost by the job, but the pay is indicative).

On months where there is no work, I will guarantee PKR10k/month. Some months there is likely to be 25k-40k.

Deadline are usually not bad - for 10-15 slide decks where the content is 80% the same as before, you will usually get 48 hours - but some assignments you will get a month to complete.

I would not need the person to be a master graphic designer - there are some projects that I will not give to this person, but will give to someone who is charging $15-25 an hour because of the nature of the work.

If interested, DM and answer the questions below.

If I like what I see, I will share a corporate email address with you and you can send me your CV and we can set up a chat.

  1. first name (don't tell me your whole name, I may not take you on!)
  2. rough area you live in (city is enough)
  3. if you are a student, what year
  4. if not a student, then your professional background
  5. confirm that the payrate works for you
  6. let me know if you have much experience with design or PPT - not having it will not harm you
  7. how reasonable you are at reading English
reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 8 days ago

Books in translation

Getting books in Pakistan is not easy - being able to buy translations at all of books like Camus' the Stranger or Tolstoy etc is a privilege.

I have noticed during my 6 years in Pakistan that good bookshops such as Liberty or Readings do sell Penguin Classics (expensive!), but that they also carry local imprints of classic books (cheaper!) in translation from whatever language they were originally written in.

Flicking through some of these local imprints, they mostly seem to be old translations (sometimes from 100 years ago) that are out of copyright and freely and legitimately available online - the sorts of translations that no one outside of developing countries reads because the language used can be so old fashioned and full of the prejudices of the era.

Modern translations try to balance the language to be true and to follow the spirit of the original.

So, I never buy these cheap translations as they are such a poor reading experience.

  • What is everyone else's experience of this?
  • Have you ever given up on a Russian classic because the language seemed stuffy?
  • Do you seek out good translations (which, of course, are really expensive - so not possible for everyone).
  • Do you look for reviews of the best translations and then look for those?
  • Or does it not matter?
reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 8 days ago

Would you like to help to form an online writers' group for SERIOUS writers in English?

I posted out looking for a writers' group - but it appears that they are too hard to find and someone wiser than me suggested forming one.

I am looking to form a community of writers that want to meet online perhaps once a month (twice max).

The idea is to read to the group from your own work for 5-15 mins and then to get feedback. Feedback needs to be constructive, even if it is negative.

This will suit only people writing narrative non-fiction or fiction. Short stories are very welcome as is poetry. Almost any genre, so long as it is narrative.

I want a safe space where we can be really critical but ultimately help to elevate each other.

If this sounds like you, please DM and I will share a WhatsApp group link.

Once we get at least 4 (preferably 6) people, we can start an initial discussion on how the group will function and start our first session.

If you think that your writing is perfect and want an admiration society, or if you are writing non-fiction on politics or religion, this is NOT the place for you.

UPDATE: one of the people that wants to help set this up has given permission to share some information about them: they edited an anthology of short stories (https://www.amazon.com/What-Were-Thinking-Just-Before/dp/0956235107) and was the recipient (a long time ago) of a major literary prize in the UK (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/sep/27/news.awardsandprizes). So it looks as if we are attracting some serious people after all!

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 9 days ago
▲ 6 r/PakistanBookClub+1 crossposts

Are there any writers' groups in Karachi or online for Pakistani writers in English?

I would love to join a serious writers' goup with constructive but deep criticism of peers' work in English (fiction or narrative).

Do any exist?

Prefer in Karachi or online.

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 10 days ago
▲ 1 r/LUMS

Free webinar on CV writing by Irish unis Tue 12 May 4pm

Hi, I am going to this webinar - looks interesting as it is people from Ireland running this for Pakistani students.

Education in Ireland is pleased to invite you to its upcoming webinar:

Skills for Students Webinar Series – How to Write an Effective CV.

Date:  Tuesday, 12 May 2026 

Time: 4:00pm – 5:00pm (PKT) 

Speakers: 

* Ciaran Coakley , Griffith College Dublin

* Grainne Carey, University of Galway

This interactive session will provide practical guidance on creating a strong and effective CV to help you stand out in university, internship, and job applications.

Please register to attend the webinar via the link below:

Student Registration Link:  

https://forms.office.com/r/F0tmpuUy8A

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 11 days ago

Free webinar by Irish unis on CV writing Tue 12 May 4pm

Hi, I am going to this webinar - looks interesting as it is people from Ireland running this for Pakistani students.

Education in Ireland is pleased to invite you to its upcoming webinar:

Skills for Students Webinar Series – How to Write an Effective CV.

Date:  Tuesday, 12 May 2026 

Time: 4:00pm – 5:00pm (PKT) 

Speakers: 

* Ciaran Coakley , Griffith College Dublin

* Grainne Carey, University of Galway

This interactive session will provide practical guidance on creating a strong and effective CV to help you stand out in university, internship, and job applications.

Please register to attend the webinar via the link below:

Student Registration Link:  

https://forms.office.com/r/F0tmpuUy8A

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 11 days ago
▲ 2 r/habibuniversity+1 crossposts

Free webinar on CV writing from leading Irish universities 4pm Tue 12 May

Hi, I am going to this webinar - looks interesting as it is people from Ireland running this for Pakistani students.

Education in Ireland is pleased to invite you to its upcoming webinar:

Skills for Students Webinar Series – How to Write an Effective CV.

Date:  Tuesday, 12 May 2026 

Time: 4:00pm – 5:00pm (PKT) 

Speakers: 

* Ciaran Coakley , Griffith College Dublin

* Grainne Carey, University of Galway

This interactive session will provide practical guidance on creating a strong and effective CV to help you stand out in university, internship, and job applications.

Please register to attend the webinar via the link below:

Student Registration Link:  

https://forms.office.com/r/F0tmpuUy8A

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 11 days ago

Urdu reading recommendation for a 53yr old with a reading age of a 10yr old

Salaam, I was born in London and lived there most of my life - Urdu is a second language for me. I have been living in Pakistan for 6 years and managed to just about read a kids' book for the 5th jamaat - which is shameful, really.

I am looking for recommendations for magazines or short books that are genuinely able to be read by 8-10 year olds. I have a hazy memory of my cousins reading the Imran Series when they were young - something engaging and fun, not religious or moralising. I am open to anything where I can start to exercise my Urdu reading muscles and hopefully progress onto more challenging works in a few months or years.

Thanks!

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 12 days ago

Pirated vs Original Books - the dilemma

Books are expensive in Pakistan. There is no disputing that being able to buy brand new books from Readings or Liberty is for privileged people. These sorts of books are not accessible to most readers.

On the other hand, there is a ton of piracy - PDFs of almost everything circulate and so many cheap pirated versions of books are sold openly in bookshops (except a few chains, such as Liberty, Readings, etc).

So the tensions are:

  • Only buy originals and support the authors who depend on these books, the publishing houses that originally invested in the authors. No authors being paid = no books.
  • Agree with piracy because so many people in Pakistan cannot afford books, so it is a choice between not reading these books at all or reading pirated versions.

In Europe, I always feel that piracy is not acceptable because, in line with earning power, books are less expensive and there are actual networks of libraries - in the UK, you can just order a book and they will usually buy it for you if they do not have it.

The one thing that I cannot understand is how people that would be happy to blow PKR 2k on coffee and slice of cake in a swish cafe will not spend the same on a book. Coffee and cake lasts 30 mins - a book feeds you soul for hours or days.

What are your views on piracy for people with lower incomes who cannot otherwise access books?

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 13 days ago

Hiring: PPT Ninja based in Pakistan

Hi, our company does courses and presentations all the time - some courses run over 5 days and have 400 slides (because they are not intended to be read, but mostly have graphics and visuals to keep the audience engaged).

I am looking for someone in Pakistan (that I can therefore pay easily without international transaction costs) to take on design work from time to time to turn our work into something beautiful.

If you DM with your portfolio and profile, and it looks promising, I will give you a business email address to reply to and we can proceed to a chat.

Thanks!

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 14 days ago

Do you ever lend or borrow books?

After sharing pics of some of my shelves, several people reached out to me to ask if they could borrow some books.

I work on the principle of NEVER lending anyone a book - nor do I borrow them.

Lending is one of the easiest way to break friendships - it is almost more difficult than lending money (at least with money, everyone generally agrees that money has value and should be returned, even if borrowers don't always do so).

With books, because they only have value to the lender and borrower, most people say 'it's just a book, waapi ho jay gi'.

People who borrow sometimes write in them, bend pages, crack spines when you don't want them to, get the books dirty or wet - whatever they do, they rarely treat them as you do in your own home.

I am curious - do you ever lend books (those that have value for you and that you want to get back).

If you borrow books, do you return them on time? Do you make sure that you ask what the rules are (with marking the book, bending corners of pages as a bookmark, etc).

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 14 days ago

WINNER ANNOUNCED: u/AleeshaPM corrected guessed it Walcott! Congrats! Please DM me to arrange to receive a copy.

Yesterday I noticed that people were sharing their bookshelves and I did the same: https://www.reddit.com/r/PakistanBookClub/comments/1t5air3/book_collection/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I joked that there was one book that I would count as my utter favourite, and that I would save this book in an emergency and I asked people to guess.

The pictures were too blurry - so I present you with 11 books from the collection - one of them is the book that I would save from a burning building (God forbid that this ever happens).

The first one to guess correctly wins a copy - you will need to send me your address (in Pakistan) and I will send you a copy by TCS.

I will leave this to run a few days and then announce the winner - but I may choose to tell a few people if they have got it wrong. Only your first guess counts!

https://preview.redd.it/xbyj2ymlvnzg1.jpg?width=2040&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ef370fdfb55551c2f65bc3b0b111e3cbea82c0a

Good luck!

reddit.com
u/Environmental-Cod25 — 15 days ago