u/Gullible-Peanut6695

Which one of their obscure villains deserves to get the spotlight and what change you would do to write them? For me, I'd choose Hester Morgan aka the Hummingbird. Since she's a genius with technology and that her goal is to inflige as much pain on others, I would write her as billionaire bored of her life and use her skills to become a terrorist as a way to have fun in her everyday life. So I would write her as a pure evil villain.

God forbids couples that can exist without the slightest hint of unnecessary drama and just have a healthy and loving relationship (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, MARVEL!) but DC is just as guilty of that. They gave a lot of dirt to some of their most iconic couples : Superman x Lois Lane, Batman x Catwoman, Wonder Woman x Steve Trevor, Red Robin x Spoiler, Green Lantern x Star Sapphire and so on... And the Hawks are probably their biggest victims.

Jesus Christ, I fucking love this image of them

One of the things that I love about the love story between Hawkman and Hawkwoman is that, unlike some other superhero relationships, theirs is just simple and uncomplicated. Just a man and a woman who love each other (a bit too much sometimes) and each other's back during crime fights and the difficult moments. The funny thing about either the one with Carter Hall/Shiera Saunders or the one with Katar Hol/Shayera Thal, they kinda have the same dynamic, I mean they used to before the introduction of Kendra Saunders.

I mean, if it takes Carter and Shiera's Hawks, their love story was tragic. Two lovers that got killed by a madman priest then get reincarnated over and over again only to hope for a chance to be together again without getting separed once again. And honestly, is this possible to show us that? That no matter the circumstances that you're in, you can always find a chance as long as you have each other?! Seriously, I want a movie or a series where I can cry about their love. 😢

And if you take Katar and Shayera's Hawks, not only they're cute but they're also funny and extremely loyal to each other. They fell in love during a mission as thanagarian policemen. I wish we could have more of their journey from collegues, to lovers to happily married because all we got about it's a page from The Shadow War of Hawkman #1 where he proposed to her next to a waterfall. Even their dynamic is just funny as hell. They sometimes joke about one of them leaving the other for the next person but they're so in love and loyal to each other that they know it will never happen.

Seriously, some people say that they're boring but I'd rather ship a boring but amourous than a ship with chemistry but built around problematic things.

I noticed on twitter that a lot of people regarding to James Gunn's DCU is eager to see Hawkgirl having a possible relationship with John Stewart and to that, I have to ask : Really? Is that all you expect to happen with Hawkgirl ? No because it comes with her relationship with Hawkman (Shayera or Kendra), a majority of people are against it because either he's stalkish, either they find him unintresting as a character or either because he prevents Hawkgirl to shine on her own and to the latter I have to laugh. If the two first reasons is mischaracterization, the latter is a criticism that was expressed by some people at some point, just not as louder as it's used to be. Because all they care about Hawkgirl right now is just her love story with Green Lantern as if there's nothing else important about her character or can be explored other than that. Her betrayal and the thanagarian invasion are not even mentionned on this discussion or at the very least barely. I know it's not the same character but since people don't see the difference. "No, we don't want her to be with Hawkman, she can do fine on her own, but don't forget that she's also Green Lantern, he's cool so she has to be with him. We'll think about her character journey afterward." 😑

This is also something that happens with Wonder Woman. People hate Steve Trevor for being the main love interest to Diana because they said he's useless and boring also claiming that Wonder Woman doesn't need a man in her life and yet people still wants her to be involved romantically with Superman or Batman. Especially him because of DCAU, she sometimes labelled as Batman's girl or potential love interest when she isn't and should never be.

I don’t know if this is projecting but I can tell this is hypocrisy.

Kendra Saunders is probably the Hawkgirl who has to suffer the most when it comes to holding the title. Even though I myself have issues with some choices surrounding her character, I must admit she sure does belong among the characters that never got the opportunity to get the spotlight.

Because everything that made her really intresting was not only used for another character, Shayera Hol's Hawkgirl (again, why not using Kendra since that's HER story) but got so imprinted in people's mind that they though and still think that they are the same character when they don't. Not really, it makes me wonder if people read the comics, did some reachers or really believe that just because DCAU can be considered as the peak adaptation of the DC comics, they can act like they know the whole universe and the characters or at least the core foundation. I just want to assure that I'm not trying to insult anybody. If you like it, it's perfectly fine. It's just give the vives.

Speaking of which, I noticed this is what is happening right now on twitter. Some people took a bird joke from the new Lanterns show on HBO Max and start to assume a possible meeting between Hawkgirl and Green Lantern (please no) and honestly it makes me sad because at this point, it's clear that what people only care (for now I hope) about Kendra is just the potential relationship that she can have with John Stewart when she's not even involved in this whatsoever. She was not the Hawkgirl that was used in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited but people think they're so interchangeable that in the end, Kendra, instead of figuring out what would be her character in James Gunn's DCU, is beoming nothing more but an intermediary between the possible revival of ship that ended two decades ago and the nostalgia of people who grew up with the DCAU.

I'm not afraid to say that Zatanna is WAAAAAY too good for John when it comes to romantic pairing. Hot take or not, he has never done anything to actually make it feel like he's the one in her life. He's like that typical asshole in fiction who always gets the girl without even trying like Sasuke for Sakura in Naruto Shippuden. I never understood why DC would establish them as a couple in the same vibe as Superman and Lois Lane or Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. I know the first time they appeared together, they were presented as exes and honestly, I wish it would've stayed like that because I would assumed that the reason why John sticked around after Zatara's death was probably out of guilt but the thing is the longer he did that, the more reasons was given that he would have been better if he had stay away from her as possible. After all the disappointment, the manipulation, the condescension, the self destruction, the breakup, the possessiveness and jealousy that he felt when she might get into someone else and the fact that Zatanna is always sidelined when they're in a story that have them both as main protagonists, I think it's only fair to say that Zatanna deserves better. Yes, I know, she can also be messy but to always draging her in a toxic relationship that was always profitable to John than her... honestly, it feels like having a Chuck and Blair situation where everytime Blair has a chance to become her own woman away from Chuck, the writers managed to make her come back to him and throw all her character development and layers out of the window. Not that I think John and Chuck, no that's not even close but I think there's a pattern in it.

All of this to say, Zatanna deserves someone who treats her with all the respect in the world and loves her for the wonderful person that she is. Give her a new boyfriend, a potential girlfriend or make her independent for her to know self love but please DC, no more Johnzee.

I'm gonna say it. Wonder Woman needs one, Green Arrow needs one too, Zatanna needs one as well just like the Hawks need one. Batman is one of my favorite superhero in DC Universe but I'm tired of him being the only one who gets to have multiple of projects every year. Others deserve the spotlight the same way he got it since 60s until today.

I know that some people had the idea of an animated show to be inspired by Indiana Jones, having them being on adventures around the world but to me, I would go and use the classic formula which means setting Carter and Shiera in Midway City and have them being the local heroes that protect it. It's been ages that we didn't have a superhero show where the hero protects his city other than Batman and Superman. For once, it would be a new environment that he will explore and where their rogue gallery will finally have a chance to get adapted and reinvinted for fit more in this direction.

For the backstory, I would go with the golden age one with the reincarnation but modernized : Carter Hall being an archeologist and Shiera Sanders being a museum curator are the superheroes Hawkman and hawkwoman expect that in version they hate each other at first, being rivals to one and other on who should be the local hero of Midway City, calling the other one faker but little by little they start show respect, eventually end up being friends until falling in love. And then they will discover they're the reincarnations of egyptian lovers that got killed by a evil priest Hath Set who here is known as Anton Hastor and will their archenemy throughtout the show just like Joker and Lex Luthor are to Batman and Superman.

That was idea of a series pitch. What do you think ? What are your ideas for an animated show ?

Don't get me wrong that show. Honestly, I wish it would have gotten more seasons than only two but what amazed me the most is how this animated series for kids was able to show more love and respect to some characters' lore than other DC projets that "tried" to be more mature (Wonder Woman fans know what I mean).

But there's another character that get the same level of justice and that character is Carter Hall aka Hawkman (he was voiced by Phil Lamarr who voiced Green Lantern in Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, damn...). I need to admit, I was kinda worried when I saw using him in the show because his other interpretations was not good at all but I started to watch it I was pleasantly surprised. No, really.

Especially in his deticated episode #TheBirdAndTheBee. This episode gives exactly a good depiction on Carter Hall's Hawkman and also Shiera Saunders. I think what I loved in this plot is what Carter says about their reincarnation cycle. He said that sometimes in some other lives, he was the one who didn't remember their love story in this version and sometimes Shiera is the one who remembers. Honestly, thank you so much. I was getting pretty sick of Carter being always the only one with the memories of past lives because it put them on equal terms, something DC barely wants to do with the Hawks. Something that I also like is that in the episode is Kareen who's being the creep here, gathering informations on her and not Carter for once but the most heartbreaking aspect of it is the ending where he's finally about to have date with Shiera, he gets attacked by Hath Set who is the one responsible for their cycle. Thank you again DC Superhero Girls for respecting the lore. Hath set walks away because they didn't have a date yet but promises to come back when their love story will start again and because of that, Hawkman makes a hardest decision : giving up the idea of them being happy together and not coming at their date night. (dude, you couldn't just stand her up like that, seriously). He just realized the only for him to love and have her safe is from afar.

Oh my god, why DC didn't do that with DCAU and I know the Hawks was supposed to appear as a couple in Superman TAS. I'm so grateful towards DCSHG for respecting a character that receiving too much crap for nothing.

In Justice League animated series, Hawkgirl was a spy for the thanagarian empire who was supposed to gain informations for the sake of a war on her home planet but couldn't fullfil her mission during her time on Earth she grew to love it and people on it. Sweet but there is one problem : when was this shown ? No, seriously. When did she ever express love toward the Earth. I mean, a majority of her moments if we don't count fight scenes are actually set in space. And honestly, this is something that bugs me about DCAU's Hawkgirl, despite the lack of respect toward the Hawks, they've barely done anything with her before the end of season 2. I think it would've been nice to show what kind of hero she was to the public eye, if she has faced other villains than the one that have been used in the Injustice League or maybe that are a member of it or anything else like this. What do you think ?

In Justice League animated series, Hawkgirl was a spy for the thanagarian empire who was supposed to gain informations for the sake of a war on her home planet but couldn't fullfil her mission during her time on Earth she grew to love it and people on it. Sweet but there is one problem : when was this shown ? No, seriously. When did she ever express love toward the Earth. I mean, a majority of her moments if we don't count fight scenes are actually set in space. And honestly, this is something that bugs me about DCAU's Hawkgirl, despite the lack of respect toward the Hawks, they've barely done anything with her before the end of season 2. I think it would've been nice to show what kind of hero she was to the public eye, if she has faced other villains than the one that have been used in the Injustice League or maybe that are a member of it or anything else like this. What do you think ?

I'm not the biggest fan of Aquaman. I don’t hate him but I wish DC would have done more with him but i noticed something I wanted to ask. Why in some medias, he is portrayed as an enemy or a stranger to the surface world ? I mean his backstory is basically him being a child of two worlds : Earth and Atlantis. It kinda goes against what he's supposed to represent, right ?

I know, I get it. DCAU was peak during the 2000s and probably helped bringing new fans into the DC universe. However I feel like people are giving too much credits to it. No matter how really good it was, I wouldn't say that it was a masterpiece at all knowing like other DC universes it made poor writing choices when it comes to some of their characters. I’m not trying to be mean to anyone plus say that as someone who didn't grow up with it, but honestly, I suspect a lot of fans who watched the shows not reading the comics (which is not a bad thing, don't get me wrong) but I think it's a weak move for discussions because sometimes they act like they know how the characters are and what they represent through that show when it's completely different in comics. Again, I’m not trying to be insulting here, I just want to express an opinion.

Shayera Hol and John Stewart's relationship isn't something worth to happen ever again in the DC Universe. I hate this couple with burning passion for a lot of reasons. One of them is obviously how it stole strong elements that define the love story between Hawkman and Hawkgirl (I'm still waiting for the day where those lovebirds finally will get the respect they deserve for so long) and I never find them having any type of chemistry but I got another reason why I feel this couple hasn't aged well and it all comes down to one word : infidelity.

Yeah, I hate cheating storylines and tropes. I never understood how people overlooked this aspect of their relationship or tried to defend it saying this is complicated and this is what makes them compelling (the Hawks also are complicated and people always use it as criticism against them). The romanticization of adultery is something that I always bother me in fiction; the way that they make us feel sympathy for the cheater to the point to villainize the victim or make it seem like what he/she did wasn't so bad because of [insert reason] is just wild. We have plenty of exemples : Sam Raimi's Spiderman trilogy, The Notebook, Pretty Little Liars, The Office, Gossip Girl, SVTFOE; even a youtube channel like The Take made a video defending the Other Woman trope (while I did agree with some arguments, it stops making sense from the moment where they start to defend the women who knew they were getting in a relationship with a men they were aware was already in one before them). A thing that I notice recently is that in the exemples I just listed, the cheater is a woman and this is extremely revealing. Why, because every time it's a woman who cheats, it feels like they're always trying hard to come up with an excuse for her instead of making her own what she did and who she hurt. Because if she does that, it's either because "she made a mistake", "she was just following her heart" or "maybe because the partner/husband did something or deserved this because he didn't treat her well". That kind of mentality is just sexist, misogynistic and misandrist and I said as a woman myself.

And the case of Hawkgirl and Green Lantern is just another exemple of how this is problematic. OK, lucky for us, the DCAU didn't romanticize it like The Notebook did but they didn't do any better. The development that lead them to become a couple wasn't awful. They were two colleagues with differences that throughtout the episodes learn to trust and respect each other only to fall in love with one and other. Until now, it was good development...AT FIRST. Because in the finale of Justice League's season 2 "Starcrossed", we learn that only Hawkgirl lied about the real reason she arrived on Earth, but we also learn that she was already in a relationship with someone, Hro Talak, the commander of the thanagarian army and main antagonist of those episodes. Plus they are promised, so engaged. OUCH, that hurt. At the end of the last episode, the Justice League managed to prevent the invasion and the destruction of Earth. Hawkgirl decides to leave the league out of shame of her betrayal, leaving the planet but not without telling John she loves him, leaving ambiguously their relation behind with an open ending.

In Justice League Unlimited, Shayera finally returned to the league after taking care of the return of Solomon Grundy. We can think that with her return, she and John might perhaps pick up their relationship where it left off expect that there's a problem : John seemed to have moved on and he's now in a relationship with Vixen (love that girl), but even he seemes to not make up his mind when it comes to that issues, leaving Vixen quite upset. And I don't know. I find the love triangle storyline very awkward because while it's cool that Hawkgirl doesn't try to sabotage their relationship and that Vixen is being mature about the history that she had with John, it was off from Shayera's part to allow herself to flirt with Green Lantern in Shadow of the Hawk or tease him about the idea of him being jealous in Ancient History. It's obviously that she liked it. She really does have homewrecker tendencies despite the fact of being an actual homewrecker to her own past relationships.

Speaking of which, I want to point this out about Shayera because I saw a lot of people trying to minimize that about her when if you think about it, she doesn't have a good excuse in her pocket. In fact, when it comes to Hro, some people said that their relationship was an arranged marriage which...I understand because the way she explained that to John sounds like it but it seemed to stop being that long ago. Remember the conversation that she had with him in his room sound pretty intimate, so even though it was maybe political at the beginning, it seemed to have evolute to something else. Something that was proved during the episode Hunter's Moon that she did love him, she even confessed it after Vixen asked her if she still had feelings for him while finding out his death... but it helps to make him an asshole and the main antagonist of the finale because it was obvious that John was a better option or whatever. And for Carter...oh my god...I already talked about it but this guy has been done so dirty. I saw people defending this aspect of the episode saying that the situation was nuanced and it wouldn't have never happened if Katar gave his wife some attention. Argument that I understand but reject because of two reasons : 1) putting like this, it's more or less victim blaming by saying that and 2) i don't like using it because i am sure that if the roles were reversed, if the gender was swapped, people would've call out how unfair the situation was for the two victims. Shayera screwed all the guys in her life and those are on her and only.

And I'm sorry if i sound rude or anything but the fans that love this ship really need to start acknowledging that about Hawkgirl because while she isn't an evil person and has her moments, she was deep down an emotional abuser to Hro, to Carter and even to John and that their relationship stops being worth the shot at the revelations. Let that sink in.

I think any Hawkman fan would agree that the JLU version is probably one of the worst adaptations of the character; it reinforced the idea, stemming from the JSA comics that Hawkman was nothing more than a creepy stalker towards Hawkgirl. Which is a real shame, because Justice League and Justice League Unlimited were the animated series that defined so many DC characters who hadn't previously been widely known or represented like Huntress or Question. It really sucks that Hawkman never got that same treatment.

However, while rewatching the series, I noticed something: Hawkman/Carter Hall barely feels like a real character. Let me explain. In his debut episode, "Shadow of the Hawk," he is introduced as an archaeologist who needs Shayera's help after discovering an 8,000-year-old Thanagarian weapon. So far, so good at least until Batman warns Hawkgirl and Green Lantern that Carter has been keeping a close watch on Hawkgirl's activities for quite some time. Surveillance footage reveals that his stalking began long before Unlimited. Right away, we run into two issues: 1) it’s subjective, but I find it wild for Batman to call out someone else's stalking bullshit when he’s just as guilty of it himself, and 2) a question crossed my mind while watching the episode: When exactly did Carter become Hawkman? You see, this question would be revelent later on.

The episode continues with Carter and Shayera in Egypt. There, Carter reveals the true reasons why he brought her there, as well as his own identity as Hawkman. He tells her the backstory that we all know : the story of two thanagarian lovers that end up on Earth, in Egypt and got killed by a jealous priest and that those lovers got reincarnated. Shayera does a Kendra move on this and doesn't believe what he said but then they get attacked and captured by Shadow Thief (who will be an important character in the other episode). I'm going to skip right to the end of the episode because when Hawkman leaving after promising that he will wait for her as long as she wants, we can see there might be a hint that he probably was right about the reincarnation.

To be honest, if the guy wasn't portrayed as a weirdo, I would have found his promise really cute. Also, this episode was pretty decent, even though it brings a lot of problem later but it's still somewhat good...if i can say that.

Next comes the episode "Ancient History". I hate this episode so much because while being a continuation of the relationship between Green Lantern and Hawkgirl, it was proof the writers didn't care about Hawkman as a character at all. I'm going to set up my thoughts during the museum scene since this is where the most important stuff happened. While it revealed that Hawkman was right about the past lives and the following was insane : turn out, past Hawkgirl had an affair with a man that seemed to be the past life of Green Lantern that also happened to be a close friend of him (which was so disgusting). It also revealed that Carter was wrong about how they died. When he suprised his wife and his "best friend" kissing, he wished death upon them both, something that was mistaken as order and when did happen, he choose death too because he was so heartbroken. Also, we discover that Shadow Thief is actually the manifestation of Hawkman's deepest dark thoughts (instresting concept but wasn't used to its potential). When he was defeated, Hawkman apologized to Hawkgirl and deciced to leave declaring to her that they weren't meant for each other after all. Wow, that was shit.

I think after all this, you understand what I mean when I say that Hawkman was used as a plot device instead of writing him as character. He was just wasted only to give more development to John and Shayera, which could've been done better but doesn't work for many reasons :

1. We didn't get to spend much time with Hawkman to actually care about him. I mean, him being an archeologist is just throwing some lore for using it again. He's an archeologist; is it possible to do anything with it, please ? Shadow Thief said that he always wanted to be hero and he became Hawkman; cool, was it hard to delve deeper into why he wanted to be hero ? I know in the comics it's not actually clear but considering the writing of the show, I'm suprised they didn't of that possibility; how is he as a person ? Because he don't see him interacting with other heroes or anyone. He seems quite alone. To think he has a friendship with The Atom. He say that he loves Shayera but why ? If she was his wife, it may be because of reasons; the least that could be done was for him to at least explain it to us why so. Maybe because they lived something together that led them to fall in love. I mean they were married and not by force or duty because it's obvious in the flashback that he geniunely loved her.
2. Why is he viewed as a lunatic ? They're living in a world where magic, aliens and immortals are a thing.
3. He doesn't have character development. It's not because he decides to accept the situation and leave that we can call it character development. I mean it's bad enough that he was made so dirty by those two, it would be only natural for him to get angry after what they did but no it is better to just leave it at that which again missed opportunity because it was clear their main problem in their relationship was more a lack of communication and yet he's the only one who needed to leave when he's also the one who got cheated on. OK.

His writing is just shit. They never should have used him if it was just to turn him into a joke compared to who he is in the comics. We went from a warrior who saw the world evolving throught his reincarnations and a loving husband who was ready to do everything to love and protect his wife at all cost to a creepy stalking who was draw the short straw after being victim of an adultery. Seriously, we need to talk about the relationship between Green Lantern and Hawkgirl because I don't understand how this couple is considered by some as a good couple.

Anyway, what do you guys think about my first issues? I'll make more and don't hesitate to let me know if I've missed any details.

Am I the only one who noticed something off about queerness in the love square? I mean, between the two, Marinette has deep and meaningful relationships with girls (Alya, Kagami and Zoe) but seems to be the only one who is allowed to whereas Adrien...well Adrien has Nino but they barely have their own moments together and Luka who knows his secret identity but the writing doesn't do anything about it. His only meaningful relationship is with Marinette. I don’t hate Marinette, she's really a good character but I hate that the show give her more stuff like that when she and Adrien are supposed to be equal. What do you guys think about that ?

Look, i'm new here and i'm huge Hawkman fan and I quite have a lot of issues with how he is presented in DC adaptations, but i cannot express them here and now because I have a lot and they deserves their own publication.