u/Hopeful-Parsley7253

A human is essentially a need machine. Constantly needing food, water, shelter, safety, love, validation, purpose, meaning, entertainment... the list literally never ends.

We are all born needy. Between birth and death, we compete, consume, be in conflict because we need and want.

Every new human is another need machine added to the world.

Honestly, what do natalists expect? That adding more needs will somehow create everlasting less suffering, less conflict or problems? That more mouths to feed means more everlasting peace?

If you buy something and end up not liking it, you can get a refund. Simple as that. Neither you nor the store takes any loss.

But when you create a life, that person can end up killed, be in accidents, be terminally ill, chronically suffering etc. Who takes the loss? The new life (and anyone who cares for them)

A refund returns you to the state BEFORE the purchase. S-icide doesn't return you to the state before birth, it just ends the existence you never asked for. It's not a cancellation but a destruction. And destruction is not the same as undo.

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Now imagine a store that operates like life itself:

It somehow makes its customers drag new customers in. It sells them something they never needed in the first place. That product slowly destroys the new customer. And when they try to return it? No refund or cancellation allowed. The only way out is to destroy themselves.

And yet, the new customers are somehow captivated to drag even more customers into it. When you ask each and every one of them "Do you like the destruction the item causes you?" Apparently they all say no! So they know something is up.

I'm smelling some serious problem here.

Really, when was the last time you saw someone genuinely like something, and instead of enjoying it themselves, or sharing it with someone they know is likely to also enjoy it, they decide to FORCE it on someone else, not needing to know of their opinion, and giving them no opportunity to refuse?

Like, have you ever seen someone who really likes Hershey's, so instead of eating it happily, they decide to force it on someone who never asked for it?

Really, do you actually like the chocolate bar or not???

Doesn't it sound much more like:

"I was also brought into existence without being consulted, and told to just accept whatever negatives life throws at me. I thought that was absurd, but I couldn't call out the one who forced it on me, they were big and I was small, so what makes you think this smaller-than-me-human deserves to have a say?"

If someone forced you to have an item. And you don't want it, you might simply give it to someone else.

If someone beat the sh-t out of you as a kid. You were small, severely abused, but couldn't take it out on your abuser. You might find someone smaller, someone who cannot fight back, and beat them instead.

Which scenario do you think "life" resembles more closely?

If life really were all good as certain natalists claim, they might have just kept it to themselves, not forced it on someone who obviously couldn't say no.

They certainly wouldn't say sh-t like "life is only x% bad, so I'm gonna make someone have it!"

More like: "I took on worse abuse. Now I'm abusing this smaller person a little less than how I was abused already. Who's anyone to say I am wrong?"

So basically, deep down they know, don't they? That life isn't a gift. It's more like an abuse, mixed with a little something good here and there

- If life were a gift, it might be shared to someone who wants it
- If it were a treasure, it might even be guarded or hidden.
- But if it were an abuse, and one was severely hurt? Then one might take it on someone else weaker, smaller, with less or even no power.

Humans have simply always been abused when young, normalised it, and made someone smaller take it.

They're just shocked that now, someone is sober enough to call it out.

Years ago, I watched a Korean horror movie about a boy who was bullied. Later, he became a bully himself.

I didn't understand it then, I don't bully others. Now I sort of do.

He didn't actually "accept" the abuse. He made bullying his rule of life. Normalised it. In psychology, this is called internalising.

When natalists ask: "Does suffering matter? Many suffer and are still okay with life, so creating more people guaranteeing them suffering and death is fine, right?", I now understand a little better. They've internalised the same logic. Normalised it and make others carry it too.

Using child forced marriage as an example. Today, we call it abuse. Back then, it was normal. Because people internalised it, and then externalised it onto the next generation.

Essentially it's "I was dealt with the same way, what makes me doing the same to others 'wrong' "?

If abuse were truly "accepted", it'd be more like a live hamster in front of a snake, accepting its fate of being eaten, that's the end of it. It wouldn't then going off to eat other creatures. That's true acceptance. Clearly, that's not what natalists are doing.

Would you make someone watch a sh-t movie and say "that's just a movie"?

No? Guess not.

If it's sh-t, you might even tell everyone it's sh-t, make reviews about it etc.

Because "that's just life" is no reason, it's a script, programmed in you. It's what you say when you don't have an answer. And from this analogy alone, you can see just how much programming is baked into procreation. Both societal and biological.

(This is one reason what I mean when I say natalists run on autopilot, saying things without ever thinking about them, but thought they have. Programmed answers are not the same as reasoning)

To the questions we ask them I mean

Ok, I assume you mean you like the good things humans are capable of: love, kindness, creativity, compassion. Not the bad, right?

M-rder, w-r, r-pe, -buse, discr-mination, bully-ng, t-rture, genoc-de, sl-very, human tr-fficking, d-mestic vi-lence, SA, environmental destruction, c-rruption, fr-ud, explo-tation, gr-ed, h-te crimes, terror-sm, k-dnapping, cyb-rbullying, blackma-l, br-bery, ident-ty theft, vandal-sm, g-ng v-olence, the list goes on

When I ask: "What systems, measures, or guarantees have you put in place to ensure these things won't happen to, or by, the person you create?" apparently all you have is a thing called h o p e. Or maybe a question "does human suffering even matter?"

"My kids won't do these things." "My kids will be better than this."

LMFAO.

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like you like humans. It sounds like you think you get to choose whatever you want. You just sound like you like babies. The idea of a baby. The feeling of a baby. But not the actual human being that baby will one day become: the one who will have to live in this world full of everything you refuse to acknowledge. Or, they even start creating NEW damn things you also refuse to acknowledge.

Funny enough natalists like to accuse antinatalists of "not knowing history".

I wonder how much history you actually know.

You have still not answered the only question that matters: Why are humans doing life?

By your logic, because people in the past have eaten more sh-t than you, now you are not only just supposed to eat sh-t but create more people to eat sh-t as well?

We are asking why? Can anyone answer that yet? What are we doing? Throughout all of history, war starvation fighting conflict droughts disasters plague blablabla

Yeah we know it was worse already, but life nowadays is still absolutely not better than non existence.

Do you know the unborn would not only never experience all of these crazy sh-t they will also not experience other new sh-t that is to be newly created?

And by the way, past sh-t like famine, starvation droughts etc have improved, true wars are few in some countries, but you can still not tell the new humans they will never experience these things either, it's still not a guarantee.

Obviously the new human decides. Lmfao. You mean you, the parent, get to decide on their behalf?

And you already know, by understanding humans, what that new human will say about involuntary suffering, crimes etc, they will hate experiencing it. Whether it's James, Lily, Amy, Jack, Elaine, Oliver or whoever that new human turns out to be, their opinion will be the same. They will all hate involuntary sufferings / feel negative about them.

So apparently, because you want them to exist in a place where not all remedies / solutions are available, they should just have to be okay with it? Or do you really think you possess some lucky genes or something?

Absolutely laughable

I'd respect it if it's simply your own view of life.

But making SOMEONE ELSE live life not being able to guarantee them anything, and if they do not hold the same position as you about life then call them depressed, negative, nihilistic?

Sorry, you are in no position to do such a ridiculous thing.

Disgusting af. I cannot. Hope they realise what they are doing.

I am asking because I have, and I would like to know how much more difficult it is to own rabbits before actually getting them.

1. How much noise do they make in the morning compared to these two other animals? Do they like to intentionally wake their owners up?
2. Do you trim your rabbits' teeth yourself? How much more challenging is it comparing hamsters?
3. Are there any serious illnesses that you found difficult to deal with and are common in rabbit owning?
4. If I only want to own 1-2 rabbits, which breed might be best for that?
5. What challenges did you face when adopting rabbits?

Thank you :)

For many reasons, I will only state one here in this post.

With rights comes responsibilities. There's NEVER EVER just rights and zero responsibilities.

If you want someone to obey you, then you need to be the one that makes the words that come out of your mouth are correct, and by "correct" it does not mean "correct to you", but actually correct". If you want total obedience, then you need to be totally correct, 100% of the time. Otherwise, its just abuse of power.

I don't think people really understand what "abuse of power" means.
Your personal rights only apply to what YOU do, on the grounds that you do not affect others in any way. To do something and then demand others to suck up any negatives that come along with it, that is not a right. That is abuse.

Often times parents demand obedience or respect. They demand THEIR rules followed, THEIR believes adopted, THEIR expectations lived, at least until adulthood, but many for decades or even for life. I often times think, if someone has to obey me for decades, how stressed I would be? But apparently parents don't think like that. They are seeing "ahh I now have someone that will do as I have expected in my head, wonderfulll" Because they are seeing someone that they can use, for whatever they have in mind.

I find the religious especially crazy. They believe in some judgement and eternal torture, but they would make someone here, not knowing every answer to the world, the afterlife, to anything really, they know there are multiple religions in existence at least, but would create someone just because they found something to believe.

I've been asking for the longest time: what is the objective of this human project? What are we doing as humanity? What have we been doing? Not a single person can give me a straight answer.

And yet, apparently, they think it's perfectly fine to just keep bringing new humans into a world where hardship, suffering, and death are guaranteed. Worse, they even deliberately guarantee them suffering right from the beginning.

If people can indeed tell me what the heck this project is about, then at least we have something to work on. But no, apparently, to put someone into such a world is the project.

I've been binge watching videos about "parents losing their children to su*cide", "single mama drug addict overcoming hardship by working hard" etc. Guess what? Every damn comment is saying, "I feel you, I respect you, you go girl!" All praising such parents. No one ever criticises the credibility of the parents in actually choosing to create humans and becoming parents.

Sorry, what are we doing as humanity? Apparently I'm the one who's weird? For thinking that's abusive and sick for people to do that? For even asking questions about what we are doing?