r/antinatalism2

I can't wait to move to a country who people see abortion as a fundamental human right. The amount of egregious things lawmakers and pro-life people have said for the sake of a fetus at the expense of the woman is disgusting.

The minute the baby is born, they turn the other way and have no interest in making sure the child is fed, educated, and is raised in a loving household. Anyone who willingly has children under this administration, with the lack of social safety net, it nuts in my opinion.

It's funny that pro-lifers think the most just thing is giving birth, when logically speaking, it's the opposite (either not getting pregnant or getting an abortion imo).

Why would we have any desire to create children on behalf of a government that’s bombing schools farms and hospitals in the first place

Our government is literally taking money out of our paychecks to fund the genocide of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

Yet we’re somehow supposed to produce wage slaves so that the U.S. government can take money out of their paychecks just to send even more money to the Israeli government in the future

Honestly why would we have any desire to create children on a planet that sucks so badly in the first place

Our politicians do basically nothing for us and just serves billionaires

Mine is when American parents complain about costs. Daycare, healthcare, grocery prices, jobs being lost... Yeah, no shit. The economy has largely been terrible since 2007, worker protections and social welfare has long been nil in the USA, and in 2010 Citizens United declared that corporations are people. You knew what you were signing up for and bringing innocent children into. Shut up.

There is a group of people, who when you discuss Workers Rights, immediately changes the subject to, "people dont want to work".

No, no, people dont want to work *for you*.

Even during lockdown, people voluntary found "work". People dont want to give their labor to companies who are abusing them.

People are tired of being told to work 40+hrs, if they can even find work, and then being told that they dont deserve anything, because their wages are too low.

I cannot help but think that less people to do the work would force companies to raise wages.

But the idea of bringing a child into this World so they can be conditioned into a good little worker, while being forced to put up with mistreatment, and then, if they are very careful, getting to pick 1 of either, getting to retire, or getting to own their own home.

No.

Absolutely not.

You cannot deprive the population of basic diginity and then expect more babies.

What are your thoughts?

When natalists claim that “there are also good things in life” they are making a false assumption, namely that these “good things” are inherent in life and technically inevitable.

According to them, from the moment a sentient being is born, it will indeed experience unpleasant things, but it will also experience pleasant things, and this may be enough to justify its existence. This is false.

It is evident that, while pain and suffering are inevitable and manifest themselves effortlessly in everyone’s life (they simply arrive; just consider how the tedium of boredom assails us when our will is not directed toward achieving something), what is good is not only not inevitable but must even be earned, and therefore requires an effort that is, in turn, pain.

And since what is good, once obtained, is destined to be lost, it too must be regarded as suffering, just as Buddhists do, not so much because pleasure in itself is such but because such is the effect that results from its loss.

In a text from the Buddhist canon, we read of a person who meets some monks and asks them why they practice to eliminate all attachments; they reply (I’m paraphrasing from memory): “Because the inevitable change in the things to which we are attached is a cause of torment, anxiety, and sadness.”

As one grows older, people typically fixate on these 3 issues - job, marriage and kids.

Job, understably so (although none of their business). Marriage (why do they care so much, perverts!).
Kids. If one says that they don't want kids citing good reasons, the elders just spouting nonsense. Religion, family system, yadda yadda. It's neigh impossible to make them see light when they've willingly blindfolded themselves. As the most populous country with as many issues, it absolutely baffles me how people have the audacity to bring new life in this filth. Strong words, I know. That's how I feel. It's a disappointing state of affairs.

A human is essentially a need machine. Constantly needing food, water, shelter, safety, love, validation, purpose, meaning, entertainment... the list literally never ends.

We are all born needy. Between birth and death, we compete, consume, be in conflict because we need and want.

Every new human is another need machine added to the world.

Honestly, what do natalists expect? That adding more needs will somehow create everlasting less suffering, less conflict or problems? That more mouths to feed means more everlasting peace?

I looked it up and the odds of a person dying in their sleep is only 1 out of 8. That means if a person has a kid and they actually stick around and care for their parents in old age, that kid will have an 87.5% chance of watching each parent go fast and painful or slow and painful, before facing those same odds themselves. Assuming nobody dies tragically before then, which is a big assumption. Dont you envy children? They have so much to look forward to!

To give you guys some context, i am from india and huge protest are going on in my country for discrepancy and leak in the exam to get into medical college. The protesters who were protesting got beaten by the police who were just student demanding for a fair exam.

Tbh its more than a exam now, there is no value to your life here. From the day you are born you are just struggling for your basic survival. Food is adulterated, air is toxic, competition is insane for admission in colleges to getting a job.

With all the protest going on for discrepancy in exams and the discomfort and problems the common people have to face because of the policies made by the elected lords of my country, i feel glad that my non existent kid wont have to face any of this. The growing inequality, extremism, loss of human rights, the struggle to survive, and the worsening climate, this country have it all.

And tbh i have no hopes that this country will turn alright, and even if it happens its not gonna happen soon because i have seen people getting more dumber and polarized and going backward in time rather that progressing.

I dont know how people convince themselves into bringing a child into this world knowing the realities of the world and this country. But i am glad, i was able to break free from this conditioning and see life beyond the script that we all get told.

So I've read Better Never to Have Been, most of the response papers (sci-hub is your friend) as well as his 2 response papers addressing his critics, and I think there's just a basic obvious issue with his argument that I haven't seen addressed.

Essentially, Benatar proposes his basic asymmetry as the best explanation for 4 asymmetrical value judgments he says are commonly held. For example, from his paper "Still better never to have been":

> I have argued that the basic asymmetry is very widely accepted, even if only implicitly. It is also the best explanation for a number of other asymmetries that are accepted by an overwhelming majority of people.

This just seems like a straightforward empirical claim, so obviously the next question is.. what's the evidence for this? I call bullshit. You can't just say an overwhelming majority of people (which people? All 8 billion of us across different cultures, nations, religions, time periods? Have you asked these people?) believe something and provide no evidence or source.

It's like he just thinks he can intuit what almost everyone values, and then proposes his basic asymmetry as the explanation for these shared values. It's silly. How it should work is you go out and do psychological research on people, find out what they value, and then and only if you find empirical evidence that the majority of the world shares these values (I don't even know how you'd find this out, it seems utterly impossible. Are you going to survey billions of people? Do representive samples in every country and culture?) would you propose the basic asymmetry as the explanation for these shared asymmetrical value judgments.

I mean personally his argument just never worked for me. Obviously logically speaking, we should evaluate absent harms and benefits for someone who would be born but isn't symmetrically, which means that in terms of harms one is better off not being born (that is, it is an advantage to not be born compared to being born and being harmed), and one is worse off not being born in terms of absent benefits (that is, it is an advantage to be born and benefitted, compared to not being born and not being benefitted). So on a logical (symmetrical) comparison what makes being born good or bad is the magnitude of the harm and benefit in a particular life. But Benatar says his argument isn't a logical one, but rather an axiological one. That is, we ought (?) or do (again, an unfounded empirical claim) make asymmetrical value judgments about absent harms and benefits which when applied to being born yields an antinatalist conclusion.

But, and I am curious what you guys make of these 4 supporting asymmetries, when I read them they just seem either blatantly wrong, arent held be "an overhwelming majority of people" or are explained in other ways (if it is even true that people make these judgments.. something benatar provides no evidence for). Eg:

>While we have a duty to avoid bringing into existence people who would lead miserable lives, we have no duty to bring into existence those who would lead happy lives

Firstly what even is a moral duty? Why am I obligated to do or not do anything? Where does this come from? This isn't the navy lol. But putting that aside, this just seems blatantly wrong for millions (billions?) of people. We live in largely pronatal societies, some of which are highly religious and incredibly explicit in their pressure for people to "go forth and multiply", but even in secular societies the pronatal pressure is implicit - the "lifescript" is that people at some point get married and "settle down", have kids, give your parents grandchildren, do your part for society or whatever. And in terms of a duty to avoid bringing into existence people who would lead miserable lives.. well firstly I'm a philosophical pessimist so everyone who procreate fails that supposed duty lol. But more seriously, is this even true? People around the world procreate in absolutely hellish conditions, and at least from what I've observed in my own life a lot of people have an attitude of "every child is a blessing" regardless of the circumstances of its birth. His next one:

>It is strange to cite as a reason for having a child that that child will thereby be benefited. It is not similarly strange to cite as a reason for not having a child that that child will suffer.

Like what? That is not only not strange but seems completely normal and widespread to me. How many times have you heard people say as a reason for having children things like "I wanted to give the gift of life", "I wanted to give my a child a good life", etc. The next one:

>When one has brought a suffering child into existence, it makes sense to regret having brought that child into existence - and to regret it for the sake of that child. By contrast, when one fails to bring a happy child into existence, one cannot regret that failure for the sake of the person.

What lol? Why not? If he means this in logical sense like because a 'not born' child has no 'sake', one cannot feel bad as there's nothing to be worse off I guess I'd agree. But just as his asymmetry isn't a logical claim but an axiological one based on comparing counterfactual worlds, one can just as well make the same claim here to an unborn happy child. It is regretful a happy child isn't born, because in terms of its potential interests (in being benefitted), his failure to be born makes that child comparatively worse off, which is regretful. Or just straight up a woman could have an abortion and think wow I regret it I could have given that child a happy life but it missed out. His next one:

>We are rightly sad for distant people who suffer. By contrast we need not she any tears for absent happy people on uninhabited planets, or uninhabited islands or other regions on our own planet.

Well this just seems to be explained by in one situation you have real people being harmed, whereas in the other, there is no existent thing to be deprived of absent benefits. But there is no asymmetry because I could just as well say we are happy for distant people who feel joy, by contrast we need not feel joy for absent suffering people on Mars, as nothing exists to be benefitted by absent harms.

So basically I don't even find his supplementary asymmetries to be intuitive, or even if they are, they could be explained by other means. It seems absurd to claim, without giving any empirical evidence, that these are accepted by "an overwhelming majority of people", and then to then propose a (frankly bizarre) asymmetrical value difference between absent harms and benefits which leads to the conclusion that we should be indifferent to a utopian existence of pure overwhelming pleasure and benefit and non-existence, because the former has no advantage over the latter. Like what lol? It's obviously comparatively better to exist in that scenario.

Hello

I am currently working on a video essay with the current WIP title "Should Antinatalism Influence Policy?"

As this is a community of fellow Antinatalists I am very curious if you guys think Antinatalism should be forced/choice. I will be using some of the responses in my video, feel free to debate others.

Thanks

yep, my ex fwb is pregnant and there’s a 12.5% chance it could be mine. It’s insane how fast natalists want kids, they bring it up any time you talk about goals or aspirations or careers. She used to talk about wanting kids all the time, she said she wanted 9 kids and to have them as early as possible so she could get back to her career. What kind of logic is that? Careers are a gamble these days to have a kid before having even started your career is a crazy high risk gamble. I asked if she would still want it if I was present and she said yes which is even worse because when we were seeing eachother I didn’t have a penny to my name and she knew that.
Most of all, I feel for the child, it will grow up to a single mother who lives with her single mother neither of which have any savings or job. It will grow up in a time with increasing distrust, shifting social norms, and growing conflict. As for me, I’m not conflicted as to what I’m going to do. I can’t do anything wrong here if I do nothing I guess.

Is this gonna be a rant? Probably. I just need to get it out of my chest.

I love my parents. It would be easier if I wouldn’t love them. Why would they bring me here? To meet them, to get to know them, to love them, to burry them?

Sometimes I’m searching for someone to put the fault on. Is it them? They brought me here. It must be them!

I could never do this to someone. Bring someone into a life of suffering, of pain, of wage slaving ur little short life away. They are not selfish, they gave me all they had! But they were! When they have put me on this planet. I’ve asked them many times, why would you want me to lose myself when I’ll have to close ur coffin and burry you few meters under ground? Why do I have to let you there, it’s cold down there and you didn’t took a jacket. I wanted to put a blanket over ur grave. And I did. I did that to one of my parents.

Since then I’m just waiting for the second call. Then, I will be more relaxed because I’ll be fully dead inside.

I could never do this to someone. Make someone love me so much, then sent them into the cruel world of suffering. Take care of them with all I have then let them watch me die. I could never do this to someone. It’s almost cruel. If hell exists, it’s here on planet EARTH.

Just a message into the void.

As a staunch antinatalist I am completely against the proposal. I am in favor of my property taxes going toward education, because it benefits the children who are already here. But this would enable people who can't afford the children they already have (and who do not care what kind of person is doing the work of raising their children either) to have another child.

There have been several comments from parents to this effect. They're saying it would enable them to have another kid. One even went so far as to say that she has no interest whatsoever in staying home longer than the 6 weeks maternity leave to, y'know, try to meet the emotional/developmental needs of the child. Her career comes first. Why she wants to have another child that she's not interested in spending time with is beyond me. So that's the kind of choice this tax hike would enable. Makes me sick to my stomach, honestly.

Another parent just said that it would allow him and his wife to dine at restaurants more often.

My city's subreddit doesn't allow participation by new or alt accounts, so I can't say this over there. But to me this is like they want to subsidize a whole lot of people's very expensive hobby.

The argument in these cases is usually that "that child could grow up to cure cancer!!" or less dramatically, "that child might be your nurse someday!" I think it's far more likely that a child born to parents who don't particularly care about its feelings, who at six weeks of age got handed off to a day care worker earning minimum wage, will end up needing far more help from social programs than a child who was truly wanted and properly nurtured.

I'd feel differently if they wanted to pay parents to stay home with the child. But these parents wouldn't want that. Their careers and social lives come first.

I cannot stop obsessing over the fact that I will die one day. Every single second I spend is one I will never get back. And that no matter what I do, it’ll all be rendered meaningless the second I die, because nobody cares what some rando at the cemetery did. You don’t even get a lot of time. Idk why they started the timer or what the purpose of my run is supposed to be?! It would’ve been much easier if I never existed in the first place to be aware of this scary fate. “It’s natural and part of life” well, I don’t fking want it? Having no limbs is natural for some as well. It also makes me confused why people are SO anti-suicide because genuinely what does it matter when it happens? Nobody’s gonna care in 100 years.

I think about the lyric: “I’m not scared of dying, I just don’t want to.” All the time.

I went to a park today to enjoy some time off and read a hard copy book to get away from screens and the kids there would not shut up. Seriously not even 5 seconds of silence. Not 5 seconds. Most of the kids screamed. Other kids felt the need to narrate every single thing they saw and did.

I am not saying people have to cave and walk on egg shells of silence but anyone who chooses that for the next 18 years of their life are crazy to me.

If I was a woman forced into that due to societal pressure the anger I would feel I would need a lot of therapy.

Organizations like the Institute for Family Studies propose unconstitutional measures such as restricting access to the internet on certain days to increase fertility, making it clear we cant sit back while others trample human rights and conspire to force more unwilling participants into this suck game called life. Antinatalism is the perfect antidote to this claptrap, so we need to spread the idea that having children is unethical as widely as possible. I favor gently spreading awareness, not trying to guilt, badger or cajole people into adopting it since weve seen that approach backfire against some other ethical positions complimentary to AN. People need to come to it on their own terms in their own time, but that cant happen if they dont see not having children as a real, viable option. Thanks for reading.