u/KindlyBalance5302

(I know LifeSite is very homophobic, so take this as a CW of sorts, but it's my personal practice to read perspectives from many ideological corners of the Church. Not saying everyone must, but in case anyone was wondering why I occasionally glance at this site.) Also, I've noticed that, in their panic; conservative Catholic media often does a great job of highlighting the implications of what they see as changes in Church precedent!

I had this thought as soon as Pope Leo made his comments on the war; and LifeSite captions it perfectly:

>Leo XIV has not challenged the Iran war from the perspective of Catholic just war theory, but by rejecting the legitimacy of all wars, not just in the present but in the past also.
Without nuance or caveat, Leo has stated that Our Lord “rejects war,” that no one can “justify war” with reference to Him, and that “He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war.”
These positions are all false, and contrary to the teaching and practice of the Catholic Church

The article goes on to explain what I thought of immediately, that the Church has a long history of Just War theory. Sure, you can be against a war and think a given war is unjust; but the Catholic Church has never been offiically, absolutely, dogmatically pacifist as Pope Leo's comments would seem to suggest.

And interestingly, this is the first piece of media, even conservative Catholic media, that I've seen point out Pope Leo's de novo papal pacifism.

If Pope Francis would have said this; the next day there would have 10+ articles and videos in the Catholic blogophere explaining why he's wrong.

Remember when Pope Francs changed the Catechism on the death penalty in 2018 and everyone lost their minds? Well Pope Leo's shift seems even more dramatic than that.

Because Pope Francis didn't claim to change the underlying moral criteria related to the death penalty, arguably, he just declared that, in the modern world, hardly any case meets such criteria.

With Pope Leo, we also have a set of criteria which would make the thing in question just, and Pope Leo didn't say that nothing today could meet that criteria, he just...acted like the criteria doesn't exist and that God Himself holds this absolutist position.

Well gosh, if Pope Leo can do this to Just War criteria; could a future pope just discard Natural Law Theory on sexuality? All the "unitive and procreative" requirements, could a pope just discard overnight and pretend they never existed?

I personally am not a pacifist, I do believe in Just War theory; and I'm not really here to make this thread about the merits of Just War theory; but to talk about the precedent Pope Leo just set.

Both conservatives and even some disheartened liberals in the Church often echo the same assumption that Church teaching "cannot change."

But I think this de novo new paradigm, totally untethered to the Church's previous official stance; though not an "official" change in doctrine; goes to show just how suddenly it actually can. And sometimes, it seems, hardly anyone even notices.

Hey all, to be clear, I am affirming as can be seen in my post history, so this is a genuine question. I do also agree with affirming exegesis of Scripture, that the clobber passages are not referring to same-sex relationships as we know them today.

That scholarship on exegeting the clobber passages has been around for a while; but I feel like lately at a popular level it's been distilled and over-simplified into "the 1946 argument"; about how the word first appeared in English Bibles in that year.

I feel like framing it this way can be a bit disingenuous though; because...were churches all affirming and performing gay weddings up until 1946? Then the word showed up in English Bibles and that's when churches starting become anti-gay? Of course not.

So I don't understand all the hype around the 1946 argument per se. Yes, it was inaccurate to insert that word; but unless we're going to say that it's the only reason homophobia ever permeated Christianity; I don't think that argument has a much power as we think it does. It seems more like a rhetorical point.

It seems to me that we can argue that the clobber passages aren't against loving same-sex couples; without pretending that homophobia just started in 1946.

Am I missing something?

God bless the Paulist Fathers

Obviously in this sub, most of us know Fr. James Martin for his LGBTQ advocacy. But he has a few other endeavors as well. Currently he's promoting his new book, Work in Progress, about what all his prior jobs taught him before he entered the Jesuits. He's also written a few books about Jesus, has appeared on a few podcasts, and I think he has his own podcast now, too, about various spiritual topics.

Has anyone here engaged any of his other work? What are your thoughts?

I've read The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything. I thought it was pretty good.

During the pandemic lockdown in 2020; I also started watching his then-daily Bible study livestreams; which he started to build community during that isolating time. I'm grateful for those broadcasts because it was really the first time I got to experience his ministry directly; and not just what his critics say about him. It was a very mind-opening experience for me back then.

I just realized today is the 11-year anniversary of the SCOTUS decision on marriage equality. In some ways it makes feel both old, and young. On one hand, I'm old enough to remember when marriage equality was going back and forth in the courts, Prop 8, etc. And on the other hand; it's crazy to me to think that it was only 11 years ago that marriage equality was not yet guaranteed. There's a whole generation growing up now that doesn't personally remember that time.

Maybe many of us have come a long way personally since that time. There's people who were not affirming on that day that are passionately so now.

It still gives me goosebumps to read President Obama's statement from that day, and I think it can inspire those of us who still press on for equality in the Church:

"Progress on this journey often comes in small increments, sometimes two steps forward, one step back, propelled by the persistent effort of dedicated citizens.  And then sometimes, there are days like this when that slow, steady effort is rewarded with justice that arrives like a thunderbolt...But today, we can say in no uncertain terms that we’ve made our union a little more perfect.  

That’s the consequence of a decision from the Supreme Court, but, more importantly, it is a consequence of the countless small acts of courage of millions of people across decades who stood up, who came out, who talked to parents -- parents who loved their children no matter what.  Folks who were willing to endure bullying and taunts, and stayed strong, and came to believe in themselves and who they were, and slowly made an entire country realize that love is love."

Lately I've been pondering, and especially now as Pride Month comes to a close; how it's important for us Side A affirmers and allies to be at least somewhat visible in our parish communities. I know this can be difficult depending on the parish culture so may not be possible for everyone. But for those who do, how do you go about showing or expressing your support?

(Not OC). If you ever see this, thanks Salina.Bear for the great history lesson!

Just came across this post by dr.ishuiz on Instagram, and his words to Sr. Jeannine Gramick gave me goosebumps. Just thought I would share it here, I think it's an inspiration to all of us who advocate for the LGBT community in the Church.

For those unfamiliar, you can read her story here.

"I believe that this is the greatest contribution that Pope Francis made to the life of the church – the call to reform our conception of pastoral theology and see it as a core element of coming to understand the call of the Gospel and the formation of Catholic teaching. Pastoral practice is not the understanding of how to apply an already formed and often reified set of principles to concrete situations. It proceeds from the conviction that the concrete situations in which people find themselves are constitutive dimensions of how doctrine should be formed in the light of the kerygma."

emptychairshome posts a lot about being gay and Catholic, and salina.bear posts about Catholic feminism. They just posted a collab the other day, I hope it's the first of many more! If you're on Instagram, check them out!

[Not OC]

Welcome back!

This sub was started about 4 years ago by u/pinkyelloworange, to be "A more casual Catholic forum where we can support each other, talk about spirituality, parish life, and other fun things." It never quite took off back then, but now we're hoping to give it another go! I am now on-board as a mod, with several years of experience moderating r/LGBTCatholic.

It's hard to put into words what exactly I envision this sub to become, and ultimately it's probably not really up to me anyway! But I'm convinced that there's a niche that it can fill, and I'm here to facilitate it to become whatever it's meant to be and however the Holy Spirit wants to use it.

While the point is not to be iconoclastic to everything or reflexively antagonistic to the Church; frank questions and opinions that may be considered "unorthodox" will be allowed in this sub, much like r/LGBTCatholic; this sub can be a place to discuss both theological technicalities as well as lived experiences.

So there's a preliminary sketch of what I envision, we'll see where it goes or if it picks up steam. I know there's already subs for more specific niche adjacent topics, like r/LGBTCatholic, r/ExTraditionalCatholic, r/CatholicUniversalism, and those subs are great! This sub can sort of be a community space for everything in-between. Catholicism is a big-tent, and as

I'll start simply posting/re-posting some content and articles I find interesting, and we'll see if the community grows.

I think a quote that best captures the spirit of what the sub aims to be; and the vision of the Church it seeks to embody, is the words of Bp. Vincenzo Viva:

"Welcoming presupposes that someone arrives from the outside and is allowed in out of the generosity of others. But as the baptized, no one is a guest in this church. God knows us by name, loves us and tells us again and again that we belong to him. There is, then, no door to cross, because by virtue of our baptism we are already inside."

With love for the Church,

u/KindlyBalance5302

"...the tradition of the church, grounded in the Gospels and reiterated by Leo and Francis, is clear: the Heart of Christ is revealed most fully in the wounded, the excluded and those on the margins. To contemplate that heart is to be drawn toward those whose dignity is often denied, not away from them. Devotion to the Sacred Heart, if it is to remain faithful to its own meaning, requires solidarity with LGBTQ people."