u/NickFries55

It's all in the title. Can Hal, or any standard Lantern, interact with intangible or incorporeal beings? Like can the ring force tangibility or just punch a ghost? I only read a little of the Scott era and some silver age Hal but I'm not a super avid GL fan (yet) so does he have that sort of feat?

Not sure if this goes under Debunk or General Discussion but since I'm not addressing a specific person and more of a meta, we'll say general.

Okay, first things first, the Omnitrix would NOT make Ben into "Broly" or anything similar. I'll be breaking the argument up into categories to illustrate the one sided depth of evidence, wherein even if I were to concede certain points out of generosity the ultimate result would be entirely unchanged.

1. The Peak Of The Species

   • 1A - Does the Omnitrix even transform Ben into the peak of the species? Franky? Probably not. This statement is a writers only statement. It doesn't appear anywhere in the series nor is it suggested. Does that mean it's untrue? No, not necessarily. Authorial intent matters in scaling and it'd be dishonest to ignore it. But whose intent? There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen on a cartoon, far more than, say, a manga. This isn't one single personal vision and statements can contradict. When later asked on Twitter for clarification, it was stated "the Omnitrix turns Ben into like a superhero for that race." So clearly the vagueness persists. What does "peak" mean? Peak health? Peak strength? Peak what exactly? The fastest man alive isn't the smartest, strongest, best fighter, healthiest, or with the best stamina. Stats aren't uniform so what would "peak" even mean? And does the Omnitrix alter the DNA to create "peak" samples? Or did this statement simply mean Azmuth chose to pull the sample from whatever he saw as the peak of that species? It's unclear. At the very least we KNOW the Ultimatrix doesn't do this since it directly cloned Bivalvan. Usually we'd chalk this up to a lazy art thing but In Universe aliens who should be able to tell the difference couldn't. Many headcanon this as an Ultimatrix fault but it seems to use the same source as the Omnitrix in the form of Primus, so is the supposed DNA modification done in the watch and beamed to Primus to be pulled from again? It's unclear. Even if it DID clone Goku it can't inherently replicate the beyond God amp he got so, at most unrealistically generous he'd get a Daima level base Goku from from this argument. Plenty of people point to 3 other instances as proof, 1 far more convincing than the other 2. Firstly, Fourarms vs Luma is NOT evidence. Fourarms didn't overpower or out muscle her and even Ben attributes his win to resilience and a refusal to give up. The authorial intent of the scene is clearly meant to illustrate her superiority as it never once suggests Ben wins via might alone, so this doesn't prove anything. The 2nd is Bullfrag being a "Chad" incursion. This one isn't terrible, but really we don't know where this sample came from and we don't have any reason to believe it's peak beyond supposed attractiveness, which could be attributed to the other incursions simply being malnourished soldiers, although that's just as much of a headcanon. Still, basing an entire Omnitrix feature off of a design choice and a gag joke is a stretch. The best argument is Liam vs Kickin Hawk. However, even this is contentious. Did Ben win because he was physically superior? Or was it plumber training, experience fighting as different species making him an unorthodox opponent for Liam, etc.

All of this to say we have no evidence to suggest with certainty that Ben is the "Peak" of each species nor how we would quantify that to begin with. BUT this is probably the weakest anti-argument anyways so, just to nail home the point, let's concede that he IS the peak of the species.

• 1B - What is the peak of the Saiyan race? Well, firstly, it is NOT Broly. Broly is a mutant through and through. His Super Saiyan is a unique variety from anybody else's, he has a unique Great Ape form that can manifest in base without any Blutz waves. He has a rapidly fluctuating power level more random than even Gohan's. And, mostly, King Vegeta straight up says he's a mutant. Unless he's the sample the Omnitrix pulls from, there's no chance Ben ever approaches that kind of form from simply being "peak Saiyan"

So, if it isn't Broly, what IS a peak Saiyan? Well, it isn't base Goku or Vegeta either. Goku has gone through years of training to hone his body and skills far beyond that of what he's naturally capable of. He got his potential unlocked, amped by God ki, trained in the afterlife, and under hundreds of times earths gravity. Vegeta, similarly, has far surpassed what a peak Saiyan actually is under any genetic-based strength. So what IS a peak Saiyan? Well, we actually know with certainty the range a peak Saiyan would occupy. It isn't that impressive frankly.

During his 6 day trip to Namek Goku is stated verbatim by the narrator to have surpassed the limits of any natural born Saiyan. So, if we generously assume the narrator meant Kio Ken X10 Goku (his limit at the time, generously again as he liley meant Base Goku) that means a PEAK Saiyan MUST be BELOW 900,000 in power level. Dwarf star level. Importantly, we know a peak Saiyan would be at least 18,000 since Vegeta never once trained prior to meeting Goku and simply naturally had an 18,000 power level as an adult. While 18,000 is likely the limit of "peak" Saiyan's without zenkai's (and therefore probably the strength Ben would reach) we'll be generous and say Ben would become a base 900,000 Saiyan. Okay, cool! We have a definitive upper end baseline based on Manga statements from characters and the narrator. Goku plateued at 90,000 in base form needing Zenkai's to get stronger, so it's inarguable a Saiyan could possibly be assumed higher than that.

But that's okay, the 400X multiplier from ssj3 would be a huge amp right? Maybe even ssj3 since Daima, not to mention the Ultimatrix would be a huge advantage! Right? Well...

2. Super Saiyan

Ben absolutely CAN go Super Saiyan... Kinda? He'd have the ease Goten and Trunks have for sure. He'd inherit all of Goku's S cells and likely have the instinct to transform, at the very least minor stress could trigger that transformation. Goten transformed in combat and Trunks had gravity training and a dad so he'd likely have a slightly harder time than them, but he'd absolutely be capable of it. That being said, he'd have zero chance of ever attaining SSJ2 or 3. He couldn't even get the useless amps like Grade 2 or 3. This means he's highly unlikely to approach ssj4 certainly. Why is this?

It's simply, ssj2 isn't a natural Saiyan ability included in genetics OR the data dump. Goku went super Saiyan on Namek, required a year of training to activate it at will, then trained for 3 years. Only AFTER those 3 years did he even consider surpassing the "Super Saiyan Wall" before then he didn't even know there WAS a wall. He then doubted if it were possible to surpass after Vegeta took extra time in the Chamber. Then, after nearly a year of training, he STILL failed to surpass that wall and simply decided to settle for regular super Saiyan being used as a base form until it was more fuel efficient and powerful. Then Gohan had to have his own hidden power (unique to him) trigger the catalyst to transform him into super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta then took an unspecified number of years (less than 7) to attain ssj2. Goku only got ssj3 after training in the afterlife with a body that was harder to drain of ki and life force.

To clarify, Goku needed a LIFETIME of ki training and philosophy, 4 years as a super Saiyan, influence from Vegeta, another year of mastering ssj1, then a few years of specifically targeted training JUST TO FET SSJ2.

Ben could NEVER replicate that with the data dump and the "peak of the species" thing. Gohan couldn't even do that without Goku's influence and even Goten and Trunks didn't get to that until training in the time chamber together and they're half Saiyans with immense potential and the foreknowledge of a perfected super Saiyan and ssj3 being a possibility.

Unless Ben had decades of experience with ki, half a decade of experience with ssj, then the specific knowledge required to master and catalyze the next state, he'd never unlock ssj2, 3, or 4 even with the Ultimatrix. That'd be like saying the Ultimatrix could make you good at sewing. Ssj2 isn't just a transformation, it's a skill. It isn't natural at all otherwise Goku wouldn't have taken his entire life just to even realize it existed.

3. Special Skills

Everyone agrees Ben wouldn't know the specific skills like kio-ken or the Kamehameha (although he'd be able to get it after seeing it probably) but most people have a few misconceptions.

3A - Flight

Ben couldn't fly. Flight isn't natural for the Saiyan's. Goku couldn't fly until training with Kami, A namekian who does have a natural affinity for flight. Gohan couldn't fly until training with a namekian. Goten couldn't fly until training with Gohan. Flight simply is never once shown to be a completely natural phenomenon for Saiyan's. The only time people provide proof for this argument is Pan. Sure? Prove it's her Saiyan heritage that allows that. Prove her Saiyan heritage (1/4th) is what allows her to do a thing no other Saiyan has ever been shown doing naturally. Maybe it's that she was involved in an In utero God ritual? Not sure, but it isn't the Saiyan genes.

3B - Ki sensing

Vegeta went like 30 years not being able to do it. Gohan had to learn from piccolo and Goku from Korrin (iirc) Nappa and Raditz couldn't. Peragus couldn't. Broly probably couldn't and maybe still can't. Vegeta did learn after realizing it could be done by another Saiyan, but he's a warrior with decades of experience, it isn't all that strange that he got it fast, but Ben wouldn't. Not at least until he had time to think about it and train, Vegeta didn't even get it until months later after his fight with Goku

3C - Ki blasts

Ki blasts are natural for the oozaru but not base Saiyan's. Goten had to learn, Goku had 10 years of training before pulling the Kamehameha out his butt and it still wasn't very strong and was terribly energy inefficient. It can happen by accident or in rage but it isn't an inherent skill, it's a learned one. Ben would for sure be able to do simple weak inefficient ki.blaats after seeing them performed but complex power amplifying blasts are locked behind a "learn martial arts and train" skill wall

3D - False Moons

This just isn't happening

3E - Controlling Oozaru

We know from Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and the Broly movie that you need to train to control this form. Under a full moon Ben would be mindless and unhelpful, even the Watch wouldn't stop that just as it doesn't stop the innate instincts of his other forms.

4 - The true Omnitrix Saiyan

If Ben scanned Goku he'd likely become a Saiyan with a tail, a power level of less than 900,000, and an affinity for the rough, raw, exhausting, and energy draining 50X multiplier of ssj1, which he probably can't use in conjunction with his mindless great ape unless somehow the great ape wrathful instincts forces the transformation naturally. At that point, a 500 times multiplier puts him at 450,000,000 at most without flight, ki sensing, self control, stamina, or higher forms. He'd get washed by android 19 low diff.

At BEST he becomes a direct clone of Goku and (somehow) mimics his "beyond God" power, then he's several times universal in base and can go into a mindless ssj grade 1 great ape with no self control or flight.

When fighting Goku Ben is better off sticking to Alien X than trying to out Saiyan him.

The last few days have been painful obnoxious. My Speech to text always misses the first 2 or 3 words no matter how long I wait after pressing, it randomly stops listening even if I've only talked for a bit and haven't paused, it's just not nearly as effective as it used to be. Did I miss an update? Is this a bug I can fix?