u/Open_Instruction_815

I have made a similar post before, but I really gotta stress this point even further cause I have seen people talk about how the point is that BoJack is an unlikeable, terrible person and you aren't supposed to care about him, which- isn't the point

It is true that he does genuinely bad, unforgiveable things

But if the show ONLY wanted to say "BoJack bad" as it's ONLY point, then they would only need one season, not SIX

I already knew from season 1 episode 3 that he wasn't a good person. It's the most obvious, boring, surface level take that should not be taken as the main point of the show.

And also, the show would be unwatchable like 80% of the time

If you aren't supposed to care about him, then specifically Fish Out Of Water and Free Churro would be unbearable to watch

He doesnt really do anything bad, he just rather, becomes an overwhelming presence

One way a show would be watchable with a downright hateable protagonist is if that protagonist is entertaining for reasons beyond YOUR investment in their growth as a person

Walter White is entertaining because he is a downward spiral, and you can see his ego breaking out (or breaking bad...) as he doesn't just BECOME Heisenberg, but rather fully realize that part of him that was already present

Light Yagami at least for me personally is a genuinely hateable, crazy serial murderer but what entertained me is how smart he is and how he goes about achieving his goals. Plus L is genuinely one of my favorite characters of all time, so his rivalry with him was fun in part thanks to that

Patrick Bateman is the most pure evil protagonist I have seen, but he's entertaining for being a very pathetic satire of consumerism and toxic masculinity

Rick Sanchez is a narcisisstic jerk to put it lightly, but he can occasionally feel relatable, and he is an entertaining presence

These villains impose themselves, have charisma, are entertaining, or basically have something going on beyond "I care about them as a person"

BoJack, the character, doesn't have such luxuries. He doesn't impose himself, he actually spends too much time hating himself which isn't a very fun villain trait

BoJack is pathetic, not in the Patrick Bateman way but in a very human, relatable way that doesn't make for entertaining villainy

BoJack, unlike most immoral protagonists doesn't consciously choose evil but rather has incredibly unhealthy psychological patterns that makes him cause harm, which is a genuinely boring villain trait

Simply, BoJack would not make a good or entertaining "villain"

The only thing we have going for him really is that he's likeable. You can relate to him and have sympathy for him, because there is no fun in hating him, it would just be a bad show if he had no redeeming qualities

Some people think that the show wants you to ONLY dislike him

And they like it because it critiques BoJack

But thats such a low bar for what you can consider good media, and it is genuinely nowhere near enough to make a good show

That's OBVIOUSLY not to sya the show is bad, by ANY means, it's one of my favorite shows of all time, but people often reduce it to "BoJack is an evil horse!!!" like it isn't the most obvious, surface level thing

In fact, there is a BoJack joke that expresses how I feel about this

"Men shouldn't choke their wives..."

👏👏👏

"Huh."

Like wow, a 50 year old almost sleeping with a 17 year old, indirectly leading to someone's passing, constantly emotionally abusing his friends, and choking someone nearly to death are all bad things

WOW, GROUNDBREAKING MORALITY, YOU TRULY ARE THE LAST HOPE FOR MANKIND 👏👏

The analysis being reduced to how bad of a perosn he is is lowkenuinely the most boring aspect of BoJack Horseman, the show, by FAR

Nothing is more boring than saying "BoJack is a bad person" because that's like saying gravity makes things fall

Instead, it's far more interesting to analyze why he is like this. And, there is no moral issue with wanting him to get better

Like, people constantly have tk go "Trauma does not excuse bad behavior" when it is so OBVIOUS and BLATANT from episode ONE.

Someone also said that "A quick one, while he's away" is meant for us to confront the harm he causes, and whether or not he really deserves a happy ending

Which is a little... Silly, and nonsensical to me

Why do we need to confront the harm he causes if we... Already saw it 💀

Like was it not blatantly obvious what he did in the past 6 seasons? Did we watch the same show? It's honestly quite patronizing and insulting to assume that people are dumb and don't know what he's done. Raphael Bob Waksberg doesn't believe the audience are children. It's annoying to assume that because I like BoJack and am invested in his betterment, that I don't know say, what happened with Penny 💀

Plus, even if one thinks he "doesn't deserve" a happy ending... So what? What does it matter if he deserves to never be happy?

If we freeze him as he is, he just stays miserable forever and continues to hurt people. The episode "the horny unicorn", we are shown that those who are cancelled could regress into their worst tendencies, and it actually enables them to continue causing harm

But if he gets better

It's better for everyone

He treats people better, and most importantly, he treats himself better

Why does it matter that he doesn't deserve it, if it causes the greatest amount of good?

And yk what, I'd say he DOES deserve it. Not because he was secretly a good person all along, no, he was genuinely a bad person and actually, that is why I care about him. I learnt I tend to feel more sympathy for those who are flawed and whose pain is self inflicted. But that's not really important, what I'm saying is, he does want to, and actually does try to change, and I think that's enough to say he deserves to change, and his flaws are why I think he needs to change in the first place

People think that his relapse in season six erases his progress in rehab

That's not true, it simply shows that in real life, progress is nonlinear, and working on yourself takes a lot of effort.

People also like to think that the show wants us to believe BJ is rotten to the core with stuff like "I don't believe in deep down, I kinda think all you are is the things you do". Which is true (that rhymes), but that's not to say BoJack is inherentely bad

In fact, the opposite

BoJack has, on countless occasions used the idea that he is fundamentally a terrible person as an EXCUSE to not grow because "that's just how he's wired" and he deserves to be miserable

But, if he just changes for the better, he wouldn't have to stay a bad person, because he's not really a bad person, just a person who does bad things.

This ties directly into another Diane quote, "There's no such thing as good guys, or bad guys, we're all just guys, who do good stuff sometimes, and bad stuff sometimes. And all we can do is try to do less bad stuff." BoJack isn't good deep down, and he isn't bad deep down either

What matters is his choices, and he can't use as an excuse that he is either good or bad deep down because like Diane said, there is no deep down

And yes, BoJack is like a real person. He's contradictory. He doesn't have a fixed philosophy. He oscillates between various beliefs throughout the show. When he says something to comfort himself in the moment, it's not a consistent belief. Like what he said to Sarah Lynn before she died, he didn't genuinely believe that optimisstic nihilism, he was using it to feel better, just like how he doesn't truly believe in the phony positivity he presented in "Brand new couch". He doesn't truly believe that he suffered the most or that he is the victim, he's doing that to mske excuses because he is irresponsible and refuses to change but still wants to feel good about himself because his life as a celebrity taught him that he could do no wrong. I'd argue the only true consistent bepief he has is "I'm poison, and I destroy everything I touch." he believes he is fundamentally broken. This contradiction is because of the stark difference with his childhood and with his stardom, so he doesn't really know how to feel about himself.

Anyway, similarly, when Todd said "It's you." to him, it was a wakeup call that he can't keep making excuses, not a declaration of permanent brokenness, an idea that BoJack also uses as an excuse, and one that the show repeatedly pushes back against

A lot of my frustration comes from people thinking that relating to him or caring about him is the same as endorsing him. It's NOT. I relate heavily to BoJack. I like him. I deeply empathize with him. And importantly, I wnat him to improve. But that doesn't mean I excuse or idolize him, and frankly, it's baffling to me how some people can't make that incredibly easy difference in their heads. It's like thinking that cobblestone is the same as obsidian. It's not just BoJack either. Take Jax from TADC where people are treated as smart and "above" the rest of the fandom for proclaiming that Jax is a no no bad guy, when it's the most obvious surface level interpretation of his character, and they have to keep saying that, because they're so paranoid that people excuse him, and while that DOES happen, it's annoying to see the opposite extreme where these characters are reduced to their worst traits

It doesn't even have to be moral traits, just general character reduction

It's happened to MOST of my favorite characters

It's happened to basically every complex Steven Universe character, namely Peridot, Lapis, and Rose Quartz, albeit sometimes this reduction can also come from the show

It's happened to L Lawliet

It's happened to Jax

And it's happened to countless other characters

And sometimes, it's happened to BoJack.

And it's frustrating how much contemporary media analysis tends to lack nuance because everyone is so busy thinking in moral categories

Funnily enough, that actually misses the point of BoJack Horseman, the show

It's not about "Is BoJack good or no?" it's about depression, trauma, addiction, abuse, and how people cope with darkness and how that coping can sometimes fuel it.

Someone also said "When I think I'm a bad person, I think of BoJack, and I'm happy." which is a little gross. Cause it's like saying "Hey, I'm not bad because this worse person exists, so I don't have to change" which is ironically such a BoJack thing to say

Same with denying that you relate to him, that's literally what season 1 BoJack did

In season 5, BoJack saw that people connected to his flaws, but took it too far, and saw it as a permission slip to keep doing terrible things. People saa that as a critique of that mindset, and it is, definitely

But what people miss is that there was nothing wrong with connecting to BoJack, or if we wanna be meta about it, Philbert

The problem is using these characters to justify your own flawed behavior instead of improving.

"I don't think you really believe that, I think you want me to tell you that you can be better"

Is true. BoJack didn't truly believe that he was the victim, he just believed that he was fundamentally evil, and tried to ease into that.

But yeah, generally, I think that if you walk away thinking "yeah, we were supposed to despise BoJack and see his as iredeemable", you missed the point just as much as people who say "He didn't do anything wrong"

Just had to get that out of my chest.