u/StrikingExplorer4111

My impression of the stereotypical American approach is something like this: the man is expected to be very active, while the woman is more passive, and dating often revolves around the man "pursuing" or "winning over" the woman. There seem to be many rituals and expectations around dating. Men are expected to initiate, pay for dates, compliment women’s appearance a lot, etc. There also seems to be more social judgment around "improper" sexual behavior (e.g. the number of partners or the timing of sex). I'm not saying that everyone in the US does it this way and I don't want to make generalizations, but this description is often portrayed as something typical (stereotypical?).

The Nordic approach, at least from the outside (judging from numerous explanations), seems much more informal and egalitarian. Gender roles are weaker, and people interact more as simply two people spending time together, with romantic or sexual interest developing naturally through that interaction. Women are often active and openly show interest. There seems to be more emphasis on personal space and mutual comfort. "No" means "no" immediately. Physical appearance matters, of course, but placing too much focus on it may come across as rude or objectifying / dehumanizing. Compliments are more sincere and less ritualized. Splitting bills is expected by default. There also appears to be less sexual shaming in general, but stronger social disapproval toward violating personal boundaries, manipulations (e.g. pickup "techniques") and objectifying behavior like catcalling.

Personally, I find the second approach much more appealing than the first, but I’m curious how accurate this description actually is. Maybe it’s too simplistic or idealized?

And if it is at least partially accurate, what do you think explains these differences? Why did such different approaches to relationships and gender interaction develop in these regions?

(I hope it's OK to make a post in English)

My impression of the stereotypical American approach is something like this: the man is expected to be very active, while the woman is more passive, and dating often revolves around the man "pursuing" or "winning over" the woman. There seem to be many rituals and expectations around dating. Men are expected to initiate, pay for dates, compliment women’s appearance a lot, etc. There also seems to be more social judgment around "improper" sexual behavior (e.g. the number of partners or the timing of sex). I'm not saying that everyone in the US does it this way and I don't want to make generalizations, but this description is often portrayed as something typical (stereotypical?).

The Nordic approach, at least from the outside (judging from numerous explanations), seems much more informal and egalitarian. Gender roles are weaker, and people interact more as simply two people spending time together, with romantic or sexual interest developing naturally through that interaction. Women are often active and openly show interest. There seems to be more emphasis on personal space and mutual comfort. "No" means "no" immediately. Physical appearance matters, of course, but placing too much focus on it may come across as rude or objectifying / dehumanizing. Compliments are more sincere and less ritualized. Splitting bills is expected by default. There also appears to be less sexual shaming in general, but stronger social disapproval toward violating personal boundaries, manipulations (e.g. pickup "techniques") and objectifying behavior like catcalling.

Personally, I find the second approach much more appealing than the first, but I’m curious how accurate this description actually is. Maybe it’s too simplistic or idealized?

And if it is at least partially accurate, what do you think explains these differences? Why did such different approaches to relationships and gender interaction develop in these regions?

My question is completely serious. No jokes, please. I want to understand/analyze the stupid, harmful, toxic stereotypes I internalized in adolescence, which have caused me so much suffering.

Recently I came across a post in a Swedish sub where a man from the US, heading to Sweden for studies, was asking how dating works there.

Some of the most upvoted replies were things like “be honest and open about your needs and wants” and “be honest from the very beginning.” 

It's not the first time I've seen advice like this, and it somewhat puzzles me. First of all, because it seems obvious to me that you can't be dishonest. Of course, you need to be honest. Why tell someone to be honest at all if they're showing no signs of intending to do anything dishonest?

Which leads me to think that maybe I'm missing something important here. Why is the advice to "be honest and open" so emphasized and upvoted? Is it because there are a lot of people who behave dishonestly and in manipulative ways?

What exactly does it mean to be honest and open about your wants and needs in the context of dating? What exactly do people mean when they say this?

Could you give a hypothetical example of

• a guy who is honest and open
• a guy who is dishonest and not open?

What exactly do they do?

Another reason this advice puzzles me is that it raises the question of how to be honest and open about the physical/sexual part of one's needs and wants. It seems obvious to me that in the context of dating/relationships there is always a physical/sexual aspect. How do you express that part honestly and openly? People don't usually express it openly — on the contrary, it typically happens through hints and nonverbal communication, doesn't it?

Also, imagine, for example, a frustrated guy who right now, immediately, needs attention, closeness, hugs, sex, etc. He really needs a woman, urgently. How is he supposed to be honest and open about these desires, about his frustration?

So it seems like this advice has certain limitations? Of course, you should always be honest in the sense of "don't lie or manipulate" —  there's nothing to discuss here. But in the sense of "show your desires and needs", maybe in some cases that could be inappropriate?

Please try to see this question as something to explain to an autistic person who wants to understand the basics of human interaction.

How do romantic/sexual relationships get initiated and formed? I mean, what exactly do people say, what they do, etc? In this context, I'm particularly curious about the following:

1. How exactly do people show interest in each other?
2. How exactly do they respond to someone showing interest in them? What counts as a positive response to someone's interest?
3. How exactly do they initiate closer contact?
4. How exactly do they maintain that contact?
5. How exactly do people initiate a first kiss? Isn't that scary? How do they overcome that fear?
6. How exactly do people initiate sex? Isn't that even scarier? (In case of rejection, one person might feel objectified and the other humiliated?)

No need to explain what people do once a relationship is already established — that part is clear, there's already open communication. I'm only interested in the first steps (at various stages).

Please describe each of these stages in detail — what exactly people say (what specific words they typically use) and what exactly they do. The more detail, the better.

Thank you in advance!

I can't put into words the pain I feel when I see posts on Reddit where people write "my boyfriend [said something]" or "my girlfriend [did or didn't do something]." For people, having a boyfriend or girlfriend is something natural, almost like breathing. This thought causes me pain, because it's not available to me and probably never will be (M42). The older I get, the greater the pain. I don't know how much longer I can endure this.

To start with, (live) communication in general, and especially interacting with the opposite sex, is constantly accompanied for me by discomfort, fear, and a sense of danger. And constant, all-consuming shame. A person who constantly feels like a clot of mucus cannot form relationships. In some cases, the combination of terror and shame reaches the point of trembling hands and literally losing control of what I say.

I have absolutely no understanding of how any of this works: how people meet, how they initiate contact (what words they use), how they maintain contact and show interest, how they initiate a first kiss (that seems so terrifying), how they initiate sex. And the thought that I don't understand any of this brings additional pain. I don't understand because I didn’t experience it. The one experience I did have was deeply traumatic to me.

I'm watching the Norwegian series “Skam” about teenagers, and there are scenes from their lives where they hang out at parties, kiss, and so on. Even for high schoolers, things like kissing are something natural, they're not afraid, they understand how to initiate it. And I don't. Trying to kiss a girl or a woman, even if there is clear mutual attraction — that seems so frightening. She might refuse, and then you'll make both her and yourself uncomfortable. Where do people find the courage to do such scary things? How does it happen that they do it all the time?

I'm not even talking about things like saying "Do you want to come home with me?" That seems like the highest act of courage. Even if my paralyzing combination of shame and terror somehow miraculously disappeared and I could talk to women normally, I can't imagine saying something like that (even if there is very clear mutual attraction and chemistry). It might make her feel like an object. I don't want to make anyone feel that way. It would also be humiliating for me if she refused. So it's dangerous both for her and for me.

I avoid relationships with girls and women because I feel dangerous to them. I constantly think that I might (accidentally) cause them some kind of pain. And they can cause pain to me.

In my teenage years and early adulthood, I made many attempts to approach girls, but they all ended in rejection. Rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. As a result, I began to believe that a girl is an inaccessible fortress that I need to storm with enormous effort (with no guarantee of success). But people somehow manage to succeed, probably by putting in superhuman effort and/or possessing some mysterious knowledge about how relationships work.

Now I understand that isn't true. A girl is not an inaccessible fortress. Judging from people's explanations, things actually happen more simply than I imagined. It's just that, for some reason, I kept having bad luck, and so I developed this distorted view about a fortress.

And then I had the only relationship in my life, where the girl made the first move, and that relationship was deeply traumatic to me. After that, my mental illness got significantly worse.

That was over twenty years ago. Since then, I have made several more attempts (all of which were rejected, of course) and have stopped trying. I developed a feeling that I shouldn't get involved with women because I am dangerous to them (or maybe they are dangerous to me?). I started having thoughts that God is telling me not to have any relationships with women, because otherwise he will do something bad to them.

I'm subscribed to the CPTSD subreddit, where people also often write about their boyfriends and girlfriends. Even for people with severe mental disorder, this is natural. It's natural for everyone, but not for me.

I live on the 11th floor. I go out to the balcony to smoke. I constantly have the urge to jump. I feel it in my body. Maybe someday I'll find the courage to do it to finally put an end to this acute pain.

UPD: To be fair, I should mention that there were 4 instances in my life when girls hit on me. In three of those cases I wasn't attracted to them, and the fourth was the beginning of the only relationship in my life — the traumatic one I described above.

UPD 2: Yes, I'm in therapy, of course.

I can't put into words the pain I feel when I see posts on Reddit where people write "my boyfriend [said something]" or "my girlfriend [did or didn't do something]." For people, having a boyfriend or girlfriend is something natural, almost like breathing. This thought causes me pain, because it's not available to me and probably never will be (M42). The older I get, the greater the pain. I don't know how much longer I can endure this.

To start with, (live) communication in general, and especially interacting with the opposite sex, is constantly accompanied for me by discomfort, fear, and a sense of danger. And constant, all-consuming shame. A person who constantly feels like a clot of mucus cannot form relationships. In some cases, the combination of terror and shame reaches the point of trembling hands and literally losing control of what I say.

I have absolutely no understanding of how any of this works: how people meet, how they initiate contact (what words they use), how they maintain contact and show interest, how they initiate a first kiss (that seems so terrifying), how they initiate sex. And the thought that I don't understand any of this brings additional pain. I don't understand because I didn’t experience it. The one experience I did have was deeply traumatic to me.

I'm watching the Norwegian series “Skam” about teenagers, and there are scenes from their lives where they hang out at parties, kiss, and so on. Even for high schoolers, things like kissing are something natural, they're not afraid, they understand how to initiate it. And I don't. Trying to kiss a girl or a woman, even if there is clear mutual attraction — that seems so frightening. She might refuse, and then you'll make both her and yourself uncomfortable. Where do people find the courage to do such scary things? How does it happen that they do it all the time?

I'm not even talking about things like saying "Do you want to come home with me?" That seems like the highest act of courage. Even if my paralyzing combination of shame and terror somehow miraculously disappeared and I could talk to women normally, I can't imagine saying something like that (even if there is very clear mutual attraction and chemistry). It might make her feel like an object. I don't want to make anyone feel that way. It would also be humiliating for me if she refused. So it's dangerous both for her and for me.

I avoid relationships with girls and women because I feel dangerous to them. I constantly think that I might (accidentally) cause them some kind of pain. And they can cause pain to me.

In my teenage years and early adulthood, I made many attempts to approach girls, but they all ended in rejection. Rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection. As a result, I began to believe that a girl is an inaccessible fortress that I need to storm with enormous effort (with no guarantee of success). But people somehow manage to succeed, probably by putting in superhuman effort and/or possessing some mysterious knowledge about how relationships work.

Now I understand that isn't true. A girl is not an inaccessible fortress. Judging from people's explanations, things actually happen more simply than I imagined. It's just that, for some reason, I kept having bad luck, and so I developed this distorted view about a fortress.

And then I had the only relationship in my life, where the girl made the first move, and that relationship was deeply traumatic to me. After that, my mental illness got significantly worse.

That was over twenty years ago. Since then, I have made several more attempts (all of which were rejected, of course) and have stopped trying. I developed a feeling that I shouldn't get involved with women because I am dangerous to them (or maybe they are dangerous to me?). I started having thoughts that God is telling me not to have any relationships with women, because otherwise he will do something bad to them.

Even here, in this CPTSD community, people constantly write about their boyfriends and girlfriends. Even for people with severe mental disorder, this is natural. It's natural for everyone, but not for me.

I live on the 11th floor. I go out to the balcony to smoke. I constantly have the urge to jump. I feel it in my body. Maybe someday I'll find the courage to do it to finally put an end to this acute pain.

UPD: To be fair, I should mention that there were 4 instances in my life when girls hit on me. In three of those cases I wasn't attracted to them, and the fourth was the beginning of the only relationship in my life — the traumatic one I described above.

UPD 2: Yes, I'm in therapy, of course.