u/Willing-Row-6387

As lot of you may know, Northern Dancer had a rare C allele gene that supported speed and muscle growth rather than the usual stamina gene and notably unlike previous carriers, he passed this down often which made him a obscenely successful sire with very high win rates. So I had a theory for a while that Northern Dancer's speed inheritance changed the whole Meta of horse breeding. I thought he must be the cause of why horses seemed to win in a wider variety of distance back then but they don't seem to be able to do the same now.

To test this theory I decided to look at 50 years before dancer and compare to after dancer in winner distance variety they performed in. I chose Derby, Ascot Gold Cup and St Leger. Derby because the best goes there and its a nice middle distance that still requires stayer stamina to win and the other two because they are important stayer races.

Sadly information just isn't that readily available. For example all previous Derby winners do have a wiki page but not necessarily good information outside of derby run itself and even if there is information, there might have been distance adjustments since the horse ran this race to make it shorter (or longer I guess but rarer lol). And in Ascot Gold case most of the old winners didn't have wiki page or any information about them online for that matter. It is quite difficult to reference all this already scarce information and be 100% sure I got everything right, I'm sure there are horses I've missed to add here and horses I shouldn't have added here. I tried my best to get things right though.

To write the conclusion above, it was more nuanced than just Dancer.

I decided to not use 2 year old season results, all horses run shorter distances during this period so it wouldn't make much sense for this.

1919 to 1969 was chosen because in 1969 Northern dancer first crop hit 3 year old. To be clear I'm not counting only G1 wins (they didn't have graded system back then too), minor prep wins and big race wins were all counted as long as it's after they have reached 3 years old. 3 year old maiden races were not counted.

1919 - 1969

Derby

Captain Cuttle - 1922 winner, sprint to middle

Coronach - 1926 winner, sprint to long

Trigo - 1929 winner, sprint to long

Cameronian - 1931 winner, sprint to long

Windsor Lad - 1934 winner, mile to long

Bahram - 1935 triple Crown winner, mile to long

Mid-day Sun - 1937 winner, sprint and middle (can't find if won a mile but I think counts)

Owen Tudor - 1941 war time winner, mile to long

Ocean swell - 1944 war time winner, mile to long

St Paddy - 1960 winner, mile to long

Relko - 1963 winner, mile to long

Ascot Gold Cup

Golden Myth - 1923 winner, sprint to long

Quashed - 1936 winner, mile to long

Precipitation - 1937 winner, mile to long

Owen Tudor again - 1942 war time winner

Ocean Swell again - 1946 winner

Alycidon - 1949 winner, mile to long

Zarathusra - 1957 winner, mile to long

St Leger

Royal Lancer - 1922 winner - mile to long

Tranquil - 1923 winner - mile to long

Coronach again - 1925 winner

Book law - 1926 winner, mile to long

Fairway - 1927 winner, sprint to long

Trigo - 1928 winner, mile to long

Windsor Lad again - 1934 winner

Bahram again - 1935 3 crown winner

Scottish union - 1939 winner, sprint to long

Sun Chariot - 1942 war time fillies 3 crown, mile to long (I want to interject to say, one of the best fillies ever)

Herringbone - 1943 war time winner, mile to long

Tahran - 1944 war time winner, mile long

Black Tarquin - 1948 winner, sprint to long

Ridge wood - 1949 winner, mile to long

Meld - 1955 fillies 3 crown winner, mile to long

St Paddy again - 1960 winner

Aurelius - 1961 winner, mile to long

Ragusa - 1963 winner, mile long

1969 to 2019

Derby

Nijinsky - 1970 3 crown winner, sprint to long

Ascot Gold Cup

None. Few did get close winning 2000m race though.

St Leger

Nijinsky again - 1970 3 crown winner

Boucher - 1972 winner, mile to long

Oh So Sharp - 1985 fillies 3 crown winner, sprint to long

User Friendly - 1992 winner, mile to long, fell from G1 class to allowance for this though

Uhhhh.. what happened here then. Things I've noticed, I feel number of races run plummeted for Derby winners, fair number of them seemed specialised too, running very derby prep races. Gold cup, stayers really went homeless, wow. Mentions of few of them being horses in amateur rider races, of course before they won Gold cup but still it seems crazy. Leger, their win count really plummeted I felt, only a few impressive ones.

Ok so, as much as I'd like to go this is all Dancer's work, it's pretty clear it isn't at least all his work after doing this research. Important events I could think of

• Grading system introduced in 1971, this surely had a effect of where the horses would go, not much point going from G1 in long to less notable shorter distance race or so.
• I imagine the success of sprinters like Phalaris and Tetrarch as sires might've also had a hand in this.
• Traditionally nobility owners bred and raced their own horses but owning and racing became much more commercialised with syndicates and so on past WWII. Traditional horse was bred with Derby and Gold Cup in mind, these were the 2 most prestigious races that they wanted to win, but this stamina focused build often meant that horses would become late bloomers, they have a difficult time winning in shorter distance races available in 2 year old season and sometimes they might go past classic year without maturing to their staying abilities. Commercialization shifted interest to more speedy builds that can perform and bring in wins from 2 years old "they want instant success like a flicking switch". During this search I found mentions of stamina being unfavoured for Pandofell the 1961 Gold Cup winners stud career.
• Increased race horse count, couldn't find any specific numbers I've honestly spent too long on this so I will write some numbers I remember of leading sires, Phalaris had 100-200 total foals, grandson Nearco had 400-500 foals, grandson Northern Dancer had 600-700 foals and grandson Danehill had over 2k foals. As you can see numbers kept inflating, I imagine this meant horses really had to pick a distance they are good at and stick to it because of the increased competition when running top class races, specially for internationally competitive countries.

Northern Dancer question still lurks in my mind, since 1975 sprint finishing time has been gradually shortening and has been cut by more than a second. However middle and long has been stagnating, so if it is him then why are his effects not seen in higher distances, what changed for sprint specifically ? or is just that we've had many shorter distance leading sires now that that area is improving? in the future middle and long will likely also see improvements like this.

Rapid speed improvement also happened in early 1900s worthy to note, St Simon? (he did not have the C allele though)

I don't particularly have a finishing note. My theory that Dancer was the cause seems to be wrong. Thank you for reading.

I'm looking for somewhere I could get a good read of information on Ascot gold Cup winners and I'm talking about like since 1900 to whoever recent year, there are wiki pages active for recent winners but I can't find anything on older winners

Goodwood or champion long stakes or such other major stayer race would also do

I'm majorly after reading their other race stats, what else they ran and how they did

First and foremost, who am I talking about here and what. I will be talking about St Simon the British race horse and sire, foaled in 1881. I will be talking about his impacts as a sire and his own life and racing career.

https://preview.redd.it/i66lsq3ae4qh1.png?width=365&format=png&auto=webp&s=52279c17dce3c75b03433dca22889b6c89849ae5

First lets check the pedigree of Nearco, Gainsborough and Hyperion (Gains and Hyperion father son). The three horses that made the nick that dominated bloodstock to show how insanely influential he is.

Nearco

Nearco's damsire is a close but safe inbred to St Simon, breedings like this is an attempt to recreate the inbreed target and get more of their features and genes for both racing and stud purposes.

Furthermore you can also see two instances of St Simon in the sire side, no other sire here is repeated, much less 4 visible times. It's safe to say Nearco himself was made with St Simon as the inbreed target to recreate his strengths.

I'm sure I don't need to repeat Nearco's racing achievements but he was a completely undefeated horse that ran all distance types. How similar is this to St Simon? literally the same, perhaps even better, it is a successful inbreed it seems. St Simon ran all the way from 1000m to 4000m races.

Next I want to mention Gainsborough, how much St Simon does he have in his blood.

Gains

You can also see a instance of Galopin the father of St Simon, he was also an important sire of course, A 3 time leading sire.

Hyperion

I will get to other progenies of him and how Sickle, traces to him and how the Nearco 3 sons have even more of him later, lets talk about his own life and racing career now.

St Simon's racing career

St Simon was bred by the same  Gustavus Batthyany of Hungary that owned Galopin, however he died before racing him while visiting 2000 guineas that was won by Galopin's other son Galiard, he unfortunately did not live to see this win. Galiard was also a son of Galopin and Galopin being such a good horse was the prince's favourite, and Galiard's 2000 guineas was his first major success as a stud. The horses and the racing operations being very tied to the owner soon all the horses were auctioned, reportedly the trainer at the prince's stable painted his hocks with a suspicious white substance in an attempt to discourage bidders, perhaps realising the potential of this colt. Eventually the brother of the trainer would buy the horse for duke of Portland at a bargain price compared to star of the auction Fulmen (unsure if the brothers were colluding).

At first he would terrify his connections with a odd hopping stride possibly to do with his peculiar conformation but he would soon become better racer showing great speeds.

He began his racing career under Fred Archer, the top jockey at the time described as "the best all-round jockey that the turf has ever seen" and a 13 time consecutive champion jockey which still the record for consecutive wins of the title for today.

He won 5 sprint races as a 2 year old all above 1 length margin and often more with highest being 8. He won his first race by 6 lengths gradually gaining more handicap weight on others, it seems he still liked to be peculiar from a mention of him winning a race while running with his "chin to his chest", he won his second last race of the season with a 8 length margin despite giving 44 pounds in handicap to rivals, his last race of the season was match race which he won by 3 and half lengths. He was considered the best 2 year old of the generation despite not participating in any of the major races.

Before starting his 3 year old season there was training with other well regarded horses of his age, mentions of him being more self paced and not in spirit normally but if spurred on he will blast through his training rivals and horses running ahead of the field under different trainers. He was so powerful the jockey would have trouble slowing him down till the end of the track and he claimed "He's not a horse, he's a blooming steam-engine."

Because of the death of the owner he had not been registered for the classics and could not run them, he started his 3 year old season with a trial "match race" but with a pace setter for each horse, against the then best horse in UK Tristan (another successful stud too), he would easily beat Tristan by 6 lengths in this 2400m race. Tristan was giving 23 pounds to Simon for this race and he easily won Hardwicke stakes the very next day. This match race was a public viewable event than training.

He started the season officially with a walkover on 1000m Epsom Gold Cup.

Then he jumped in distance to 4000m at Ascot Gold Cup officially meeting older horses for the first time. Not only would he win in this huge jump of distance challenge he would win it by a whopping 20 lengths in a field including Tristan who had previously won this race, he was so strong and fast that it took another whole lap to slow him down.

Next he challenged a mile distance, only opposed by 1 other entry at Newcastle Gold Cup, he won this with a easy 8 length gap. The ground on this day was very hard which strained the horse and would show its effects later.

Next he ran at 4000m again for Goodwood Cup and beat the previous years St Leger winner by 20 lengths.

In a show of power he would do another work out with the leading colts of his year that won 2000 guineas and 1 of the horses that dead heated the Derby and the not yet but eventual St Leger winner. He easily thrashed them showing the triple crown would've easily been his if he could run in it.

Unfortunately this marked the end of his career, he would stay in training for bit longer but foot problems surfaced from the Newcastle race that would cause his retire. He never officially ran in a medium distance race but from the match race with Tristan we can safely call him unbeaten in all distance types.

He was ranked 4th in 19th century greatest British race horses poll.

St Simon in Stud

He had a peculiarity of front legs being further into his torso, making his back shorter. He was noted for passing this down and his stride.

https://preview.redd.it/jhmda4iie4qh1.png?width=440&format=png&auto=webp&s=33e938d00f07b23a799178cd378762a66dcc10e8

He was also particularly noted for stamina inheritance but was also noted for acceleration inheritance so while there was a lean to stamina he was still very good for speed. He isn't explicitly mentioned to be of bad temperament but this seems to be case, between always being hard to handle and mentions of him attacking grooms and killing barn cats, a feature he would pass on and very present in the best of his descendants.

He would spend most of his time at the owners own stable for studding and become the leading sire for 9 years and broodmare sire for 3 years.

There is a bit of mystery to end of his life, dying from apparent heart attack at age 27 in April 1908. While still fertile and healthy in 1907 he did not cover any mares in 1908 to this point and the reason for this is unknown. While there exists a grave for him there isn't much underneath it as his hide was taken by the owners, skeleton sent to museum and hoofs at jockey club Newmarket and a museum.

He was an immediate success and particularly noted for the strength of his fillies throughout his stud career, a trait his male descendants seem to often inherit too somehow. He sired 1000 guineas winner in his first crop and Oaks and Leger winner in his next. He sired 10 classic winners in total with 17 classic wins among them. Diamond Jubilee the 3 crown winner, La Roche and Winifreda swept all 5 classics of 1900 for him, the 1 and only time this was accomplished by a sire.

There are way too many big winners to list all so I will mention a few important ones, Persimmon would be leading sire for 4 years and broodmare sire for 3, he found the Prince stamina line that would form a nick with Prince Quilo to Bold ruler that made Secretariat among all other great horses the prince line would produce. He would also sire the filly Sceptre, the one and only 4 classic winner.

Simon sired 1 fillies triple crown winner and 1 triple crown winner in La Fleche (f) and Diamond Jubilee (full brother of Persimmon). La Fleche son would produce Swynford. Diamond did not do as well as expected a sire himself and was exported to Argentina and became a 4 time leading sire there (big attitude on this guy).

Rabelais, 2 time leading sire of france and founder of the sire line that would produce Ribot (yes Ribot is from Turk line!) ( https://www.reddit.com/r/HorseRacingJP/s/AgxQMrAvo2 my other post on St Simon, wrote both in same write up initially).

Chaucer Selene

St Simon most important son, out of the mare Canterbury Pilgrim that also birthed Swynford.

He was not a very notable racer but he produced the outstanding mare Selene. Who was possibly the best racer in her generation and an out of the world broodmare.

Pharamond II

The important sire who the sire line Menow> Tom Fool > Buckpasser (damsire of Easy Goer, Miswaki, Seeking The Gold, etc). Also the sire of Cosmic Bomb who would sire Cosmah.

Hyperion

THE sire for breeding nick with Nearco, you can read my Gainsborough post if interested.

Sickle

Founder of the 1 other line that continues to lead that is not by Nearco, Native dancer and Mr prospect line.

Pharos

He also produced the filly Scapa Flow who birthed Pharos and Fairway who are full brothers.

Needless to say he had a nick with Phalaris the sprinter that produced well balanced horses who would run much longer distances as well and would change the bloodstock.

The founders

Here I will paste the pedigrees of all the founders again to show influenced they are by St Simon

Phalaris, has a bit. Not much

Pharos, quite influenced with close relationship from damsire

Nearco, inbred with Simon as the target

The great breeder Tesio would reuse the damsire line here later as direct sire line for his racing magnum opus, Ribot. I think this shows how much he valued St Simon.

Nasrullah, perhaps the least effected, Swynford and Charles Omally have a entry of Simon out of screen though

Sickle, Damsire again

Royal Charger, outside of Nearco has Gains instance of SImon admittedly more to do with Gains nick than Simon for dam side but gains obviously has a instant of Simon in his pedigree

Nearctic, outside of the previously talked about Molly Desmond also has Simon, very heavily influenced.

While the sons of Nearco may not look too effected its important to remember how much Simon Nearco had in him making any entry from the damsire still a noteworthy addition.

THE founder

As mentioned above Nearco seems to be clearly modelled after St Simon, and he proved to be similar indeed. As discussed in my other post Nearco dominated through a nick with Gainsborough, who is also closely influenced by St Simon. Hyperion, the sire to fully materialize the nick is also closely influenced by St Simon. in conclusion? its all St Simon.....

This post is about the extremely influential 1881 sire St. Simon.

I have another part of this post coming that will talk more extensively about him and his impact but to show you how important he is, take a look at Nearco's Pedigree.

https://preview.redd.it/ctupahdpt3qh1.png?width=991&format=png&auto=webp&s=6e43c6c09769c9f372284cd067d6b344ce25e840

St Simon is the only repeating sire and he repeats 4 times, its clear Nearco was inbred in target of getting another St Simon and we know how influential he is to the modern bloodstock.

Now I will get to the controversy of his pedigree.

First I'd like to start with a brief introduction to his pedigree. Galopin, his sire was a very successful racer owned by Hungarian Prince Gustavus Batthyany, Galopin's sire Vedette did not have the best reputation as a stallion and Galopin was his biggest success, Galopin had a record of 9: 8–1–0 with an important win at the Epsom Derby, he was the strongest racer of his active years. Galopin still perhaps owning to his sires reputation had a slow start as a Stud but eventually took off to be a leading sire as previously mentioned, he is the damsire of bayardo and flying fox. This line doesn't connect to the modern day leading line till all the way back to Eclipse himself, this is very important to remember. Whalebone is the source of all Eclipse dominance so how did such a racer and sire come from other line? especially when you think of the insane effect St Simon had even more than Galopin.

His damsire King Tom was a half brother to the extremely important sire "The Emperor of Stallions" Stockwell through the mother Pocahontas. he had a turbulent racing career coming in second at Epsom derby after a injury in the race and retiring after winning one more race after recovering from the Epsom derby injury, he had a record of 6: 3-?-? (yes so old don't even know info sometimes). He was the leading sire two times siring many winners and the fillies triple crown winner Hannah. Pretty much thanks to St Simon he was often more noted for being a broodmare sire than sire.

Now to talk about the controversy, as mentioned before Galopin's sire Vedette was not at his class as a racer or sire, so how was Galopin so strong as a racer and such a great stud? since these days the rumour was that actually Vedette is not the sire and it was instead a horse at the stud called "Delight", this was strongly refuted by the owner at the time but recent research from 2017 shows Galopin has Tb-oB1 y chromosome, the chromosome direct descendants of Bylerian Turk are identified by, of which Delight was. Delight himself was not a very notable horse at all, so why did Galopin become such a huge success in racing prowess? the answer to this comes when you swap out Vedette in the pedigree and look at it with Delight there instead.

https://preview.redd.it/7i3mi7fst3qh1.png?width=516&format=png&auto=webp&s=9287fae5c8eb95c5039340a226f728dd923ddc69

Galopin is heavily inbred to the champion The Flying Dutchman, and looking at the results, this inbreeding had great success in inheriting the qualities. Dutchman was an incredible race horse and a winner of the Epsom Derby that also beat the great Voltigeur in a match race (yes the race name) he had a record of 16: 15-1-0 showing prowess all the way from sprint to long races similar to St Simon. And the very important difference this makes about St Simon is that now we know he is a direct descendant of the Bylerian Turk line!

Now, not only does this change Galopins pedigree, it changes the entire history of bloodlines as we know it today, St Simon is a sire among sires, and all this influence is now attributed a descendant of the Turk line, it changes how every important sire and racers bloodline should be looked at 1900s onwards in pedigree analysis and how genetic crossing should be calculated.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/241170/galopin-new-research-and-an-answer-to-an-old-question

This is honestly just going to be rambling and stamina inheritance glazing. Leading sire that produced leading sires had great influence on the breed, ofc it did.

Moving on

Gainsborough is a name I'm sure everyone has seen too many times tracing lineages. Birthed between a classic winning sire and dam, he was a war time triple crown winner of UK that was well regarded and distinguished himself as a sire of sires, he answered his expectations of his princely birth and far surpassed them. He proved to be a great source of stamina that will support an on coming blood stock dynasty, Nearco. However this greatest partner was not here yet and it would be mainly his sons job to work this nick.

First of all, his biggest hits world wide that got him the attention. In his second crop he would produce Solario, a winner of St Leger (Kikuka Sho for UK) and Ascot Gold and Coronation cup by a stunning 15 length win. Solario would become the leading sire for 1 year and leading broodmare sire for 3 years. Displaying the nick with Nearco of this bloodline he would be the damsire for Royal Charger.

Hyperion

Gainsborough would continue to produce a notable horse in every crop but his star and heir is undoubtably Hyperion. He was a winner of the Epsom Derby and St Leger as a racer but would most importantly become one of the most influential sires of all time. He would be who carries Gains blood to the future becoming a leading sire for 6 years, 2nd 4 times and 3rd once. He would be the main one to produce the nick with Nearco that dominated the bloodstock there after, it's greatest creation being Nearctic (this places Gains in the damsire pedigree of 2 of the four founders for Phalaris domination line, Sickle, Royal Charger, Nearctic, Nasrullah. although it does place Chauser more like St Simon I think in 3) (I completely made up the 4 founders for Phalaris bit btw that's just how I see the lines continuing, just term I made up, maybe professionals see it differently and attribute things to different horses)

Hyperion was the sire of

• Aureole perhaps the queens most successful horse becoming a leading sire for 2 years and producing St Paddy and Vaguely Noble
• Owen Tudor who would produce one of the greatest sprinters Aberent and one of the greatest milers Owen Tudor, his crop showed more variety in what distance they are suited for
• Sun Chariot the British fillies 3 crown winner (very difficult feat as it requires running a stayer race with colts for the last leg), in the oaks she caused 3 faults starts and when the race finally did start ran in the wrong direction but still rallied and won by 1 length
• Heliopolis 2 time leading sire of USA
• Several other great sons who were leading sires or near leading, too many to name all and many lines have dwindled with time, the great Kelso was also a direct descendant by another son. Produced leading sire sons in pretty much any country you can think of and ones you cant think of like Belgium, Sweden and India (idk about Japan though lol wasn't mentioned).

As mentioned before he was the damsire of Nearctic but he was also the damsire of Citation, one of the greatest American racers. The same Nearco line nick would also produce the Japanese leading sire Tesco Boy (I shall get to Influence there with time).

He was such a great sire that he kept breeding till 29 years old where he bred 4 mares that season, he would die at 30. As you can tell from reading above and all the export of bloodstock to everywhere in the world, his reputation was sky high, lord Derby was given a blank check by the American buyer Louis B. Mayer to which he replied "Even though England be reduced to ashes, Hyperion shall never leave these shores," referencing to the incident where Aga Khan sold all his blood stock to USA than UK when the war started which outraged British breeders.

I don't believe there are any direct sire lines left of him, at least at notable stages. The dominant nick with Nearco often had him and his descendants being damsire and Nearco and his descendants being the sire, Like how SS and Kamehame continues with Deep and Kanaloa. There were reverse cases that produced notable horses with Hyperion sire and Nearco damsire as well but Nearco overall dominated.

Back to Gains

Gains blood was huge on stamina even going so far as to reports of notable dominant sons of his such as Singapore losing in none stayer races for being too short for him, but bred with more speedy pedigrees he did produce top class sons who could perform great in shorter races too such as Orwell who won 2000 guineas but shocked everyone by failing to stay the Derby and Leger.

Through his daughter Mah Mahal Gains became the damsire of Mahmoud who would birth Almahmoud who became one of the most influential broodmares producing Cosmah and Natalma

The effect in Japan

Tournesol a son of Gains became a five time leading sire his biggest hit was the mare Kurifuji who we still hear about. Another big turning point he would introduce was that he would sire Kumohata who became the first local bred sire to become a leading sire and was the leading sire 6 times surpassing his father. He became a notable sire of Tenno Sho winners siring 7 of them displaying the stamina the line is known for. He would also sire the I believe only steeplechase horse to enter JRA hall of fame till the eventual induction of Oju, Meiji Hikari.

Tesco Boy as mentioned before was produced to the familiar nick between Nearco and Gains line, he also became a leading sire in Japan and was so for 6 times, his most stand out son everyone is familiar with, "Tosho Boy" became a leading horse and an idol of the era as part of TTG. Similar to the sire Tosho Boy was also produced to the nick of Nearco x Gains, a line of Hyperion by the son Alibhai was used on the damsire side. Tosho boy would do the important role of being a local sire that made a triple crown winner for Japan through Mr CB, He also sired Daiichi Ruby among other winners and damsire of Matikanefukukitaru and Cosmo Bulk. Due to the success of Tosho Boy farms started calling him "Help Boy" as they claimed buying one horse by him can clear the debts of the farm, this was immense contribution to dispelling the stigma that local bred sires are inferior. Another very important son of Tesco Boy is Sakura Yutaka O, the father of Sakura Bakushin O and Air Jihad. Tesco Boy was also the broodmare sire of Gold city and Ines Fujin.

Nothern Taste has 3 visible entries of Gains being closely inbred to Hyperion's daughter Lady Angela that produced Nearctic and his dam. Nothern Taste became one of the most important stallions in Japanese history setting the new record by being the leading stallion for 10 years straight and the record for most stakes winners produced (till both was passed by SS), his existence substantially influenced Japanese bloodstock quality and he lead broodmare sire list for a number of years as well. His offspring were often effective at medium to long races. The money made from his success is what allowed the owners to purchase SS, Real Shadai and Tony Bin.

Speed Symboli the first major trailblazer in international racing for Japan was also produced through the Nearco x Gains nick, with Royal Charger sire and Hyperion son damsire.... well tbh idk wtf to call this line, just take a look yourself, that's 4 visible Gains at the very top.

is this still called a family tree?

Anyway Speed Symboli will be very important for the bloodstock as well as he is the damsire of Symboli Rudolf.

Mejiro Hiryu, dam of Ramonu and Ardan is also a product of the Nearco x Gains nick although these are fairly off shoot lines that weren't discussed above but are still very notable. Mejiro Samman has 2 instances of Gains, he would produce Mejiro Eagle who in turn makes Mejiro Palmer. Mejiro Samman is the damsire of Mejiro Ryan who's sire is a son of Nothern Taste, and he in turn sires Dober and Bright, as visible with the mix of Nothern Taste blood at every turn Gains blood only increased. Overall though looking at Speed Symboli pedigree it seems Symboli farm loved Gains more which is disappointing lol, but the Mejiros did involve the Prince line which is also great stamina. Mejiro Titan only involved one Gains line way back and Mcqueen pedigree damsire was a direct descendant of Gains and Point Flag had even more but by this point Gains was so long ago for horse pedigree it doesn't count much to list here tbh.

But well all in all it's safe to say I think that his line and his nick were huge for Japan studding beginnings and the lines still continue now through the big names I mentioned above.

When I initially planned this post I thought of doing more recent big sires too but quickly realised there isn't much point to even doing the likes of Deep because Gains too ancient by then, even 1990s didn't seem like it has a point. Therefore I don't have much of a conclusion to wright here because I figured out and researched topic that came to mind as I was writing. Thank you for reading.

Triple crown as we all know is a highly prized tour of races that form the premier races for 3 year old horses, all the best of the generation will generally compete in this as winning any of these classics is a huge honour and marks your horse as a leading horse for the generation and naturally immensely increases their stud value (well, unless its a long race). Especially winning the Derby is considered to be a huge honour to all those involved that marks the particular horse as the strongest of the generation.

I'll be comparing Japan, UK and USA.

I'll be noting

The distance, what distances the horses has to be top class in to get the crown

The track, the conditions (I'd love to mention elevation of uphill in meters and for downhill too but finding reliable source for this info on each race lowkey looks impossible so it'll be more of a overview)

The dates, how long the horses have between races

Amount of 3 crowns produced since 2000

Disclaimer, had to visit all sorts of sites for each different race to get the distance info on uphill and downhill, except jp which I kinda just used umalator and a few more to clarify so this info might not be accurate

Japan

Satsuki Sho 2000m (medium)

Turf, right handed, passes the same uphill that stretches for 100m near the start of the race and end of the race in the final stretch, 4 corners, 300m final straight

https://preview.redd.it/y6nsiaeqgvmh1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=471cb051b949c661c93890fa46ca7342d4e155a0

Japanese Derby

2400m (medium)

Turf, left handed, one uphill of about 75m before downhill for about 250m and a uphill in the middle of final straight for 150m, 4 corners, 500m final straight

about 1 month and bit more rest

didn't realise how often they pass the same point till doing this

Kikuka Sho

3000m (long)

Turf, right handed, passes by the same 325m uphill to 150m down hill twice , 4 corners, 400m final straight

About 5 month rest

I really appreciate how much easier it is to get info on jp racing

3 triple crowns since year 2000

UK

2000 Guineas

1600m (mile)

Turf, straight (no corners), 200m downhill to 200m uphill that finishes on the goal post.

from 1m mark

Epsom Derby

2400m (medium)

Turf, left handed, 1000m uphill from start 800m downhill from midway to near end then uphill for final 100m, 2 corners, 800m final straight (what in the fuck is this track)

About 1 month rest

horse shoe shape track

St Leger

2900m (long)

Turf, left handed, known to be an essentially flat course with a minor uphill near the middle followed by a downhill (couldn't find the length at all) , 1 corner, 900m final straight

About 3 months

https://preview.redd.it/iqnbgxychvmh1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=6fc8a6f118bb3cefb885bb60c5b47a4b06d97423

0 triple crowns since year 2000

USA

Kentucky Derby

2000m (medium)

Dirt, left handed, completly flat with no up or downhills, 2 corners, final straight around 400m long

info lowkey impossible to find, so many maps on everything around the course for people to do but barely any of the race, 2 corners so start near the stand like jp crowns

Preakness Stakes

1900m (mile)

Dirt, left handed, completly flat no up or downhills, 2 corners, 350m final straight

About 2 week "rest"

again similar starting point to above

Belmont Stakes

2400m (medium)

Dirt, left handed, no up hills or downhills, 2 corners, 330m final straight

About 2 weeks

finally a somewhat race map

2 triple Crown winner's since year 2000

Was interesting to see how UK goes crazy with map shapes and hills while USA keeps it plain and Japan has a chosen to adapt a mix of it with keeping the oval shapes but mixing in hills. It is also a mix in terms of it has taken a more UK approach to rest time but a more USA approach to distances, but they do still have a much wider gap. USA gap is 500m from shortest to longest while Japan is 1000m and UK is 1300m, but it's similar in the sense that 2 of 1 distance type and 1 of other, USA 1 mile 2 middle and Japan is 2 middle 1 long while UK is 3 different types.

All 3 seem to have their challenges obviously, Japan with the longest distance race and UK having 3 types of distances and USA with very busy schedule.

Outside of race challenges themselves there are also other factors for why not many 3 crowns are happening like breeding interests favouring stamina less therefore horses either don't have the stamina or simply avoid the third leg.

So this is very active sub with race results and other discussions all the time but I've never really seen mentions of betting and odds on horses and related predictions.

I've bet twice myself, calandagan and ombudsman lost their unbeaten streak in each of the bet races, I plan to bet on lovcen for kikuka :D

We all know modern racing is dominated by Darley Arabian line, I wanted to see how much of an effect the other 2 had on the history of the sport. Thought of doing this after realising the first 3 crown was Godolphin line.

to start with the conclusion

Darley Arabian - 14

Bylerian Turk - 0

Godolphin Arabian - 1

Very sad there was not more variance and 0 Turk.

Here on I will be yapping about each of the 3 crowns specifically mentioning random facts I thought are note worthy enough to write down here.

West Australian - 1850 (Godolphin Arabian)

10: 9–1–0, The first ever 3 crown in history, voted to be the 2nd best horse of the 19th century in UK and confusingly 3rd behind "Isonomy" who was third in the other poll for greatest the voters have ever seen. The set name "3 crown" was birthed the same year this horse took the triplet, it was made to honour his outstanding performance winning the premier mile, middle and stayer race for 3 year olds. After winning the 3 crown races he had 2 "walk over races" meaning win by default because all the horses withdrew from the race he entered, the same happened when the other horse for a match race was withdrawn, he would run 2 more races and retire.

for "recent" sire line you would've heard of, Man o' War.

Gladiateur - 1862 (Darley Arabian)

19: 16-0-1, He was elected 1st for both greatest horse all around and best horse in UK for 19th century poll. He was a French horse and his 3 crown victory in Britain had him called "Avenger of Waterloo" by the French, yes it was so old people still remembered Napoleonic wars well.

He was sold here to there often it seems and did not do well as a stud.

Lord Lyon - 1863 (Darley Arabian)

21: 17-3-1, Something note worthy is that the mare side was more note worthy for being hunt horses than race horses although grand mare had raced twice unsuccessfully, both mare and grand mare were used for pleasure riding or pulling carriages like a normal horse than a horse for a sport making this a very odd pedigree for such a high class horse and showing how different horses landscape was back then. It seems him and Gladiatuer did not race against each other despite being only 1 year apart.

It seems he was also shifted from place to place often and had mild success but none lasting lines to modern day.

Ormonde - 1883 (Darley Arabian)

My favourite of the bunch, the first undefeated 3 crown winner for UK and anywhere in the world. He would stay undefeated 16 to 16 by his retirement. His sire Bend Or is part of the direct sire line to the sire Phalaris who is the genesis for all modern leading lines, however Bona Vista is the son that would produce this line, not Ormonde. He is related to the only 4 classic winniner of UK "Sceptre" through his dam Lily Agnes. Despite all this pedigree he was born with very "pronounced characteristics" and was doubtful if he would grow up fine but he did. He ran 2000 Guineas with the most prominent son of Lord Lyon "Minting". He became sick before st Leger but still ran and won it with ease. He ran 2 more times with 1 being a walk over and the other being match race of 4 horses where 2 forfeited. Next year he did not race till June and received treatment, during this period his jockey till this point Fred Archer committed suicide. This period of health issues gave his rivals confidence but alas Ormonde would come on top beating Minting again. He would also win the race that is now called July cup making him and undefeated horse than won at all distance types. His generation was considered a very stacked one elevating his performances even more but I cannot find what rank he was in 19th century ranking so I will assume he was ineligible for being too recent or so.

His stud career is what makes him my favourite, he is recorded to have only sired 8 foals in UK but still managed to make an ever lasting impact on the breed. His fertility was failing and due to the health issues of his that he inherited from his dam, the owner sold both to Argentina thinking his foals would only lessen the quality of UK bloodstock, not sure about racing in Argentina so idk if he has major lines there still. Anyway what makes this so impressive is that one of this sons Orme would still go on to make an extremely notable line. This son won several G1 and sired Flying Fox, another 3 crown winner of UK. This line would produce the extremely important broodmare sire Teddy and also the American 3 crown winner Gallant Fox who would then sire the American 3 crown winner Omaha. Citation also comes from his direct sire line. My goat only needed 8 foals and still made an ever lasting impact on the breed.

Common - 1888 (Darley Arabian)

5: 4-0-1, There isn't too much to say about this horse given the fact that he only raced 5 times. However I do find his sire Isonomy very interesting being one of the 2 only horses ever to sire 2 3 crown winners. I also have a post on him at https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/rFgfMCkkck.

Common betrayed his name on the turf but was common as a sire failing to produce much.

Isinglass - 1890 (Darley Arabian)

12: 11–1–0, The second son of Isonomy to win 3 crown and the second undefeated winner. Again we see the variedness of bloodstock from the fact that his dam served as a carriage mare for a while after retiring from racing before becoming a broodmare, perhaps these are why stamina is thought of less now? The second for all three 3 crown races was a horse called Ravensbury. He like every other horse in this list was considered to be one of the best of all time and set the new earnings record which took till 1923 to beat by Zev.

He became and influential sire and the grandsire of Sir Barton, the first American 3 crown.

Galtee More - 1894 (Darley Arabian)

13: 11-1-0, His grandsire was also Bend Or (already showing signs of this line dominating?). The first Irish horse to win the 3 crown in UK, after he won the derby bonefires were lit on Galtymore mountain to mark the "humiliation of Saxons". It seemed this would have been a very gentle natured horse because there is a mention of fans pulling tail hairs to take as souvenirs after he won the derby very easily but he reacted calmly to this.

He was sold to Russia then Germany both where he became an influential sire, idk about racing in these countries so unsure if there are still modern leading lines.

Flying Fox - 1896 (Darley Arabian)

11: 9-2-0, His 3 crown win made his owner the only owner to own 2 3 crown winners. He was intensely inbred to Galopin who was his damsire and sire's damsire.

His stud record is a stellar one and already mentioned above for Ormonde.

Diamond jubilee - 1897 (Darley Arabian)

Wow its already a landslide for Arabian. The least impressive stats to 3 crown winner so far being 16: 6-4-1 but this seems to come from the fact that he was impossible to control, mentions of kicking a spectator, trying to bite his jockey while refusing to enter gate and dropping the jockey and running around the field before the race as a 2 year old. But this seems to have improved after switching to a new 19 year old jockey Herbert Jones but of course didn't fully go away and disruptions would still happen.

He was sold to Argentina to stud where the first thing he did after arriving was trying to savage the stud owner, but he did continue to become a leading sire there for 4 years. He still continued his antics throughout and ran away from the stud and roaming around neighbouring town few months before his death. Again not knowledgeable on Argentina racing to know if his lines are still influential.

Rock Sand - 1914 (Darley Arabian)

20: 16-1-3, seems he was a lazy horse that had a peculiar trot that would have people think he was lame. after winning derby and St James he ran one of the most stacked Eclipse stakes including the previous year derby winner Ard Patrick and the filly who won the rest of the classics Sceptre, this was immensely talked about as a "Battle of Giants" and "the most valuable field of horses that ever started in a race in any part of the world", the king himself was part of the crowd to see this race, he lost this at third place and would similarly place third behind Zinfandel and Sceptre in another race. Towards the end of his career he is described to have hobbled to the gate "like a cripple" and soon retired for tendonitis. Although he was regarded a high class horse the career is looked back upon as his classic year lacking strong rivals reinforced by his loss to Zinfandel who beat both him and Sceptre but did not run the classics.

He was sold to stud in America after serving short while in UK. He seemed to have had success as a sire and sired the damsire of Man o' War. He was later also sold to France where his skeleton is still displayed in Muséum national d'histoire naturelle.

Pommern - 1912 (war time 3 crown) (Darley Arabian)

10: 7-1-0, During war time 3 crown was held at new market race course only due to lack of resources. Unfortunately the name "Pommern" was also the name of a famous germen battleship at the time. Not much to say about the war time ones because there weren't much runners in the fields it seems. He is said to have been retired a bit early to avoid running against the next years 2000 Guineas winner Clarissimus.

Met with some success with few winners but none lasting lines it seems.

Gay Crusader - 1914 (war time 3 crown) (Darley Arabian)

haha funny name. 10: 8-1-0, facing the same issues as above he ran the 3 crown and other races, he was considered to be a good winner of 3 crown however.

He was met with some success as a stud siring few winners but biggest achievement is definitely being part of Ribot's pedigree.

Gainsborough - 1915 (war time 3 crown) (Darley Arabian)

9: 5–1–1, same issues as above two, he was the first classic winner bred by woman for UK. Again not much to say about this because not many horses and not many races.

He is probably more known for his stud record than triple crown, appearing in many pedigrees we see today. He was known as a source for stamina and sired the important sire Hyperion. His daughter Mah Mahal would produce the important broodmare Mahmoud.

Bahram - 1932 (Darley Arabian)

Why do I even check the sire line anymore? probably the first great owned by Aga Khan, 3rd undefeated 3 crown winner. 9: 9-0-0, he was very hyped at the time as being the horse of the century. He was known for being lazy when seen at the tracks and reportedly even lazier at the stables, his trainer said he never did know how good Bahram was till the end.

He had a very successful brief stud career in UK it seems siring many winners and later becoming damsire of Noor. After Germany invaded France Aga Khan sold Bahram and other important bloodstock to American buyers which angered UK breeders who considered this a severe loss to UK bloodstock. He continued to have a successful career in America as a stud and was later sold to Argentina. This said I'm unsure of any surviving important direct lines of his.

Nijinsky - 1992 (Darley Arabian)

13: 11–2–0, well I mean, do I even need to say much? 4th undefeated 3 crown. His success really popularized northern dancer in Europe. He won the derby in "sprint championship-winning speed" to which the jockey Lester Pigott still said the horse was just cantering. Between running king George and St Leger Nijinsky became seriously ill with a ringworm and lost most of his hair but still recovered and won the Leger easily. He lost Both Larc and Champion stakes as second and both jockey and trainer said he has lost form and he was retired. Pigott seems to have been adamant that running the St Leger led to his loss at the Larc.

He had massive success as a stud siring many winners and is still very present in modern leading bloodlines, unsure of any modern leading lines however.

This was long, wow.

Likely the best upcoming miler in the world, that finishing kick in this race was an insane gain on the other horses

Rivalry with Gstaad continues, 3 meetings so far and Bow Echo first Gstaad second in all, Gstaad has never placed lower than second.

Frankel 2?

Why don't we have a discord for the Reddit, I'd like to talk about horse racing stuff more conveniently than make posts and what not

https://www.horseracingnation.com/race/2026\_King\_George\_VI\_Queen\_Elizabeth\_Stakes

I'm thinking calandagan masq 1 2 rn, I thought daryz will be running that's sad to see he isn't.

Other pattern I could likely see is calan benvenuto 1 2 I think

Overall I don't really see calan not taking his second win, what about you guys?

I've put together list of 1 horses from Japan America and UK that were killed than put down because yeah

​

Japan: Ferdinand (1983-2002)

​

So as we all know Japan was quite aggressively importing studs before, Ferdinand was one such stud, a son a Nijinsky and a derby and Breeders cup classic winner who was the 5th all time leading earner at its time, he was also named horses of the year and champion older horses after his breeders cup win

​

Ferdinand did not perform as a sire he would serve in Japan from 1995 to 2000 with initial popularity and declining interest as his progeny didn't perform. He was moved to the hands of "Yoshikasu Watanabe" And there are records of him serving 6 mares in 2001 and 2 in 2002. When original owners of Ferdinand wanted to see him again they were told by him that Ferdinand was moved to become a riding horses initially, but after pressuring more about wanting to see the horse they were told "he was disposed of last year' (records of him using the word "shobun" As if it's a thing). He was likely turned to pet food to save costs.

​

This caused great controversy and started many movements and foundations through many countries and laws in America. Since this they now have contracts where original owner can buy the horse back and there are 2 known instances of this being used when selling to Japan since with well known horses (Silver Charm and Roses in May).

​

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/180859/death-of-a-derby-winner-slaughterhouse-likely-fate-for-ferdinand

​

America: alydar (1975 -1990)

​

Alydar son of Raise a Native was a idol of a horse in America with massive popularity given the rivalry between him and Affirmed in Affirmed's 3 crown run, Alydar was second in each race and closed the margin on Affirmed through each 3 crown race, they faced off against each other 10 times and alydar would win 3 of these 2 of wins being before the 3 crown tour. Alydar was ranked 27th of "top 100 US racehorses of the 20th century".

​

Alydar would go on to become a successful stud fathering Easy Goer, Alysheba and other successful racers and was the leading sire in 1990.

​

But his farm struggling financially decided to commit insurance fraud by killing Alydar for a big payout (the farm would still go under later anyway).

​

John Thomas Lundy the owner of the farm allegedly tied a leg of Alydar to a truck and pulled on it till it snapped under him while he was in his stable room, while this case was never proven it was established that no horse could generate enough power to break down a door as in their story of how Alydar's leg broke. Affirmed, his long time rival was in the same stable the night this incident took place.

​

On separate bribery charges in the same trial Lundy was sentenced to 4 years in prison.

​

https://www.texasmonthly.com/true-crime/the-killing-of-alydar/

​

UK: Preakness (1867-1881)

​

This one is diferrent from the other ones as it's ancient and not much info but still important because Preakness stakes of the 3 crown tour is named after this horse.

​

Son of the great "Lexington" Preakness was a popular horse with a record of 39: 19-12-2. He also set speed records for his time during his career.

​

After his career he was sent to UK to stand stud and his owner there Duke of Hamilton shot the horse when it disobeyed him during a breeding session. This led to public outcry in UK and brought reforms on laws and restrictions in handling and treatment of animals. The trophy won by Preakness from "Dinner plate stakes" Was donated to this race.

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness\_(horse)

​

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the other racing power houses like France and Australia to name instances in them, feel free to name some interesting stories you know.

​

If you happened to see this post in other sub then yes I posted it there but mods deleted it but I wanted it to be visible somewhere so posting again

I've put together list of 1 horses from Japan America and UK that were killed than put down because yeah

​

Japan: Ferdinand (1983-2002)

​

So as we all know Japan was quite aggressively importing studs before, Ferdinand was one such stud, a son a Nijinsky and a derby and Breeders cup classic winner who was the 5th all time leading earner at its time, he was also named horses of the year and champion older horses after his breeders cup win

​

Ferdinand did not perform as a sire he would serve in Japan from 1995 to 2000 with initial popularity and declining interest as his progeny didn't perform. He was moved to the hands of "Yoshikasu Watanabe" And there are records of him serving 6 mares in 2001 and 2 in 2002. When original owners of Ferdinand wanted to see him again they were told by him that Ferdinand was moved to become a riding horses initially, but after pressuring more about wanting to see the horse they were told "he was disposed of last year' (records of him using the word "shobun" As if it's a thing). He was likely turned to pet food to save costs.

​

This caused great controversy and started many movements and foundations through many countries and laws in America. Since this they now have contracts where original owner can buy the horse back and there are 2 known instances of this being used when selling to Japan since with well known horses (Silver Charm and Roses in May).

​

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/180859/death-of-a-derby-winner-slaughterhouse-likely-fate-for-ferdinand

​

America: alydar (1975 -1990)

​

Alydar son of Raise a Native was a idol of a horse in America with massive popularity given the rivalry between him and Affirmed in Affirmed's 3 crown run, Alydar was second in each race and closed the margin on Affirmed through each 3 crown race, they faced off against each other 10 times and alydar would win 3 of these 2 of wins being before the 3 crown tour. Alydar was ranked 27th of "top 100 US racehorses of the 20th century".

​

Alydar would go on to become a successful stud fathering Easy Goer, Alysheba and other successful racers and was the leading sire in 1990.

​

But his farm struggling financially decided to commit insurance fraud by killing Alydar for a big payout (the farm would still go under later anyway).

​

John Thomas Lundy the owner of the farm allegedly tied a leg of Alydar to a truck and pulled on it till it snapped under him while he was in his stable room, while this case was never proven it was established that no horse could generate enough power to break down a door as in their story of how Alydar's leg broke. Affirmed, his long time rival was in the same stable the night this incident took place.

​

On separate bribery charges in the same trial Lundy was sentenced to 4 years in prison.

​

https://www.texasmonthly.com/true-crime/the-killing-of-alydar/

​

UK: Preakness (1867-1881)

​

This one is diferrent from the other ones as it's ancient and not much info but still important because Preakness stakes of the 3 crown tour is named after this horse.

​

Son of the great "Lexington" Preakness was a popular horse with a record of 39: 19-12-2. He also set speed records for his time during his career.

​

After his career he was sent to UK to stand stud and his owner there Duke of Hamilton shot the horse when it disobeyed him during a breeding session. This led to public outcry in UK and brought reforms on laws and restrictions in handling and treatment of animals. The trophy won by Preakness from "Dinner plate stakes" Was donated to this race.

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness\_(horse)

​

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the other racing power houses like France and Australia to name instances in them, feel free to name some interesting stories you know.

I want to look up a horse and get detail on what races they ran and placements and blood line and what not in a clear way like netkeiba for other countries but can't seem to find good site