r/DebateAChristian

In Christian theology, progressive revelation means that God did not choose to reveal His entire truth to humanity all at once. Instead, He revealed it sequentially, over centuries, in harmony with His historical purposes.

Revelation is progressive in completion, not in direction. Newer revelation builds upon, clarifies, and fulfills older revelation - it never contradicts it.

Think of it as an educational curriculum: you do not teach a first-grader advanced calculus. You begin with basic arithmetic. The introduction of calculus later on doesn’t mean the rules of arithmetic were "wrong" or that the math teacher changed their mind; it means the student was finally ready for the fuller picture.

The Principle of Divine Pedagogy (Concession vs. Ideal)

Skeptics argue that if God permitted practices like polygamy, harsh warfare, or ancient near-eastern servitude in the Old Testament, He was either endorsing immorality or His standards changed. Note: Slavery in the Bible was indentured servitude, not chattel slavery.

God frequently used concessions to manage a fallen world without violating human free will entirely. Jesus explicitly uses this defense in Matthew 19:8:

"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard, but it was not this way from the beginning."

Jesus points back to the Creation ideal (Genesis 1–2) as the true moral standard. The Mosaic civil law was not a portrait of a perfect heaven; it was an brake on a broken, ancient society. God regulated, restricted, and mitigated evils (like turning absolute, brutal chattel slavery into heavily restricted, legally protected debt-servitude contracts) to pull humanity gradually toward the ideal.

Historical Reality and Organic Continuity

God chose to step into real human history rather than speaking from a vacuum. If God had demanded a 21st-century Western legal and social framework from a nomadic ancient Near Eastern society in 1400 BC, the message of redemption would have been completely unintelligible and culturally unadoptable, leading to societal collapse. This would be like asking a 2 year-old to look both ways before crossing the street - they are far too immature to do so.

Conservative theology argues that God met people where they were but never left them there. The Old Testament laws planted the subverting theological seeds - such as the Imago Dei (Genesis 1:27), which states every human has equal, intrinsic value - that would inevitably grow to dismantle ancient cultural evils from the inside out.

Christocentric Fulfillment

The ultimate defense of progressive revelation is found in the New Testament itself. The author of Hebrews states:

*"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The Old Testament laws were "shadows" pointing to a reality (Colossians 2:17). When Christ arrived, He did not discard the old law as a human mistake; He fulfilled it (Matthew 5:17) by revealing the deep, internal spiritual reality behind the external civil codes.

• The Old Law said: Do not murder (external).

• Christ revealed the full picture: Do not harbor hatred in your heart (internal).

Conclusion

To argue that progressive revelation proves human culture dictates Biblical morality is a category error. Human culture was the canvas God painted on, not the brush.

From a Christian viewpoint, progressive revelation proves God's patience as a master teacher. He tolerated sub-optimal cultural frameworks temporarily, regulating them out of mercy for a "hard-hearted" people, while steadily driving history forward toward the ultimate, unchangeable moral standard personified in Jesus Christ.

THE INCONSISTENCY OF PAUL’S ALLEGED DIVINE ENCOUNTER:
Did hear?/Did not hear?

In Acts 9:7 it says Paul’s companions ”heard the voice but did not see anyone”. (The translators dishonestly try to translate ‘voice’ as ‘sound’, but the Greek word is voice.)

Despite this, in Acts 22:9 Paul says his companions “saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one speaking to me”. (The translators dishonestly try to translate ‘hear’ as ‘understand’, but the Greek word is hear.)

In fact, the Greek word for ‘voice’ (phones) in Acts 9:7 is the same Greek word for ‘voice’ (phonen) in Acts 22:9 and in every other Bible occurrence it means ‘voice’.

And the Greek word for ‘heard’ (akouontes) in Acts 9:7 is the same Greek word for ‘hear’ (ekousan) in Acts 22:9 and in every other Bible occurrence it means ‘hear’.

Now ask yourself, if this contradiction was in muhhumad’s divine encounter wouldn’t you rule him out as a false prophet?

Thesis: Progressive revelation is just a way for Christians to replace their god's biblical morality with later secular human morality while still calling their own opinions "biblical".

Premise 1: The Bible contains moral teachings and

permissions that many modern Christians now reject.

Examples include slavery, women viewed as property, and collectively administering the death penalty.

Premise 2: These practices were not rejected because writers of the Bible abolished them. They were rejected centuries later through, inter alia, ethical argument, legal reform, political struggle, abolitionism, feminism, human rights discourse, and changing social norms.

Premise 3: Christians then reinterpret earlier biblical teachings after human morality has moved beyond them.

Once broader society rejects something like slavery, Christians often say the relevant biblical passages were temporary accommodations, culturally limited, or part of progressive revelation.

But that's not a god revealing morality progressively and more like humans replacing biblical morality with better human morality, then rereading the Bible to make it fit.

Premise 4: Appealing to “the culture of the time” concedes that the moral development came from humans, not progressive revelation.

Either slavery was morally wrong when the Bible permitted it, or it was not. If it was wrong, then a perfectly moral god permitted an immoral practice. If it was morally acceptable because “that was the culture at the time,” then the moral standard was always being determined by human culture, not revealed by god.

Conclusion

Progressive revelation does not solve the problem of biblical morality. It exposes it.

It shows that Christians use moral standards outside the Bible to decide which parts of biblical morality should be kept, reinterpreted, or discarded.

2 Samuel 12:11:  This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.

Context: David had an adultery relationship & This is what the lord says to him.

2 Samuel 16:22: So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.

Context: Absalom is the son of david.

_____

P1: Punishing a man who commits adultery by raping that man's wives in public is NOT justful.

P2: God punished a man who commits adultery by raping that man's wives in public.

Conclusion: God of the bible is NOT perfectly justful.

You work in a company, the boss of the company made a contract with the manager that he will make one of his grandchildren essentially the new head if the company and lead it forward, and to be deemed the new head so that everyone would know he is the right person, the boss laid out things he is supposed to do for the company and workers at large.

Some time passes and a guy shows up claiming to be the boss's son. People claim he is the one that is going to run the company....despite the contract the boss made and is still visible for all to see. The workers claim he is adopted by one grandchild of the manager, others push back saying its supposed to be a blood relative otherwise anyone can fit the role making the contract useless.

Next issue of all the things the new lead is supposed to do, they didn't even do 1/8 of them and left. Never came back and people say he is the new lead and will do those things when he gets back.

It wasn't the right guy, he just claimed to be the boss's son and now we have to change passwords. The boss got mad and fired the security officer.

Definitions:

1. In Jewish, Christian, Edit: and Islamic theology, God is explicitly perceived to be the creator of time itself.

2. An object changes if and only if it has a specific property at one time (T1) and lacks that same property at a later time (T2). Change is inherently bound to a temporal sequence.

The Argument:

P1: if God exists and he created, then either God's act of creation is eternal or it is not eternal.

P2: If God's act of creation is eternal then creation is eternal.

P3: If something is eternal then it is not created.

P4: If God's act of creation is not eternal, then God changes from creating to not creating.

P5: If God changes, then God is in time.

P6: God is not in time.

Edit: C: God does not exist.

Edit: C: The classical, timeless philosophical God cannot exist.

Please poke holes in the argument, I am eager to refine it.

Jesus always speaks in metaphors, like a politician or a salesman. It sounds good, but does it actually work? All I get from parables is that I'm damned many times over since I'm like the bad examples of the subjects of these parables. I'm convicted of my sinful nature, yet I can't reconcile how I can be saved, when I still have to make an effort to make myself pray, not sin, etc. Has anyone really been turned into a new wine skin, a new vessel, to hold the new wine or the water of Christ? Is there a point where Jesus telepathically communicates with your mind? Do you have to go crazy first?

I'm asking because I agree with the New Testament intellectually, but I don't know how to translate that to my specific life. I have to reach through the Internet since nobody in my life or vicinity knows either. What changes in your life or your character after accepting the Holy Spirit or being saved or whatever? I just don't get it. I'm spiritually afflicted and alone in this world. Churches are just a social cult. I'm too poor and single to be accepted in any church community. I need financial assistance to better my life.

Premise: Christianity constantly imposes an obligation on people that they've never consented to and then tries to emotionally manipulate or terrorise them into compliance.

I never asked Jesus to love me. I never asked him to die for me. I don't want a relationship with him, I don't want salvation, and I don't consent to being part of his plan.

Yet Christianity often presents this stalker behaviour as if it's unquestionably good or something I should be grateful for.

In every other area of modern ethics, we recognize that genuine love respects autonomy. It accepts "no" as an answer. It doesn't insist that someone is in a relationship with you simply because you love them.

In the sciences, ethical approval committees have high standards for obtaining informed consent and voluntary participation. Christianity needs the same guardrails.

Christians say, "Jesus loves you."

My response is: that's nice, but I don't consent to that relationship.

If your theology says I'm obligated to accept someone's "love", or that I'll be punished for rejecting it, then that's not a model of love grounded in informed consent or respect for personal autonomy.

Consent is a concept missing in the Bible, and it needs modern ethical reform and to put an end to indoctrination of children and other mind games to coerce people into submission.

This thread is for whatever. Casual conversation, simple questions, incomplete ideas, or anything else you can think of.

All rules about antagonism still apply.

Join us on discord for real time discussion.

If the Christian god is the source of objective morality, why have Christians abandoned so much biblical morality in favor of secular humanist ethics?

Christians often argue that morality comes from their god and that without tyere god there can be no objective moral standard.

But if that's true, why do modern Christians reject so many moral positions that the Bible explicitly permits, commands, or regulates?

For example.most Christians today would agree that:

Slavery should be abolished, despite the Bible regulating rather than prohibiting it.

Child abuse is a crime, despite biblical passages endorsing corporal punishment.

Marital rape is a crime, despite the Bible never recognizing a spouse's right to refuse sex or men being prosecuted for raping their wives.

Women should not be treated as property, despite biblical laws treating wives and daughters as belonging to fathers or husbands, and are listed alongside oxen.

Freedom of religion is a human right, despite biblical commands to destroy other religions and punish apostasy.

Executing people for blasphemy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, or rebellious children is immoral, despite these penalties appearing in biblical law.

Torture and cruel punishment are unacceptable, despite centuries in which Christians defended or practiced them.

Democracy and equal rights are preferable to theocratic rule.

LGBTQ people deserve equal protection under the law.

Religious minorities should not be persecuted.

Human rights apply regardless of race, sex, or religion.

It seems that Christians have repeatedly revised their moral beliefs in the same direction as secular humanist ethics: expanding individual rights, reducing violence, increasing equality, and protecting vulnerable people.

If modern Christians reject many biblical moral teachings because they believe those teachings are wrong, then isn't the real source of their moral judgments something other than, and superior to, the Bible?

In other words, why are Christians judging the Bible using an independent moral standard rather than deriving their morality from it?

God = Goodness (or goodness is identical to God) isn't simply wordplay or a definitional trick. It's a solid metaphysical answer to one of the oldest questions in ethics: The [Euthyphro Dilemma]. Originally pointed out by Plato in his namesake dialogue Euthyphro the dilemma poses:

Is something good because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is already good?

• If things are good simply because God commands them, morality becomes arbitrary. If God commanded murder tomorrow, murder would suddenly be "good."

• If God is commanding things because they are already good outside of Him, then an independent standard of morality exists higher than God. This means God is not the ultimate reality; He must submit to an external moral law.

Classical theism avoids this dilemma by denying both options. Instead it offers a third option: God does not appeal to some outside standard of goodness. But God doesn't arbitrarily make it up either. God simply is the standard. Goodness is equivalent to Godliness.

But how can a personal entity be identical to an abstract moral perfection?

To understand this, we have to explore the bedrock of medieval metaphysics. Medieval philosophers like Thomas Aquinas operated under the doctrine of the Convertibility of the Transcendentals.

In this framework, Being (existence) and Goodness are conceptually distinct, but perfectly identical in reality. They are two sides of the same coin.

Goodness as "Fullness of Being"

To understand this, we must define "good" the way the philosophers: a thing is good to the extent that it successfully actualizes its intended nature or purpose. Goodness is completeness; it is the "fullness of being."

Consider a kitchen knife.

What makes a knife a good knife? It has a sharp blade, an comfortable handle, and structural integrity. These are all positive realities; they represent the "fullness" of what a knife is meant to be. They enable the knife to fulfill its purpose - to cut.

What makes a knife a bad knife? A dull blade, a cracked handle, or rust. Notice that dullness, cracks, and rust are not positive substances created and added to the knife. A crack is a lack of structural integrity. Dullness is a lack of sharpness. They are privations.

Therefore, badness or evil is always a privation - a hole, a lack, or a malfunction where being ought to be. Since evil is a negative space (a lack of being), it logically follows that being itself is inherently good. To exist at all is to possess some degree of metaphysical reality, and to possess reality is to possess a degree of goodness.

Metaphysical Good vs. Moral Good:

• Metaphysical Goodness: The sheer perfection of existing and possessing functional capacities. A cancer cell or a devastating hurricane possesses immense "metaphysical" goodness because they are highly active, powerful realities fulfilling their physical natures perfectly.

• Moral Goodness: This applies strictly to rational beings with free will. Moral goodness is achieved when a creature uses its metaphysical capacities (like intellect and will) to align with ultimate truth and the design of reality.

When a person acts wickedly, they do not possess a physical substance called "evil." Rather, they are suffering from a moral malfunction or a privation - they are taking inherently good things (desire for justice, strength, intellect) and misdirecting them.

The Pillar of Divine Simplicity

The second central philosophical pillar comes from the notion of Divine Simplicity. God in classical theism is understood to be "without parts".

If God had goodness the way a human "has" a good sense of humor, it would mean goodness is an attribute separate from God's core essence. If that were true, God would be dependent on the attribute of goodness to be good.

Divine Simplicity states that God is His attributes.

• God does not have power; He is Power itself.

• God does not have existence; He is the Act of Existence itself.

• God does not have goodness; He is Goodness itself.

Since God has no potentiality (He cannot change, He cannot deteriorate, He lacks nothing), He is said to be the fullness of Being. And since fullness of Being is by definition absolute perfection, God and Goodness are synonymous.

Addressing Critical Objections:

Objection: "This is just a semantic trick! You're just redefining the word 'God' to mean 'Good' so that God wins the argument by default."

Response: No, because the argument is based on independent metaphysical deductions. We arrive at the concept of God by 1) looking at the universe and realizing there must be a primary cause that is Pure Actuality and Being itself. 2) We arrive at the concept of Goodness by realizing that perfection means the fullness of being. The philosophical argument shows that these two separate lines of inquiry collapse into the exact same metaphysical reality.

Objection: "If being equals goodness, then why is the world filled with so much horrific suffering and physical evil?"

Response: Classical philosophy distinguishes between metaphysical goodness and experiential or physical evil. A virus has metaphysical goodness (it functions perfectly according to its nature), but its interaction with a human body causes a privation of health in the human.

The suffering is real, but it confirms the theory: suffering is always experienced as the loss or corruption of a good thing (health, life, peace), proving that good is the fundamental reality, and evil is a parasite upon it.

Conclusion:

God is identical with absolute Goodness. Instead of good being a divine fiat or law standing over against God, it argues that God is the measure of all good. Since God is the completeness of being and is devoid of no perfection, God Equals Good.

See also What makes an act good?

it has been stated that Christian people “pick and choose” when it comes to things they believe in Christianity and that makes their beliefs invalid or at the least weak.

I don’t mean to be accusatory or mean in any way whatsoever. But I have seen this statement posed in numerous atheist communities and channels. Now I ask of the Christian’s, purely out of curiosity (pls don’t try to convert me I don’t mean to insult with this statement just bad past experiences.), opinion and thoughts on this.

P.S: pls don’t flame me on grammar and spelling, I’m just an idiot.

The Bible’s explanation for “humanities inclination towards sin” is damaging to humanity.

The Bible says that humanity is inherently inclined towards evil and sin. I think this is a great understanding of how human animals are inherently inclined towards violent, instinctual, animalistic and immoral behavior. Now while the Bible does a good job at describing humanities condition, there is a very real psychological danger in believing that the Bible is the final word on this subject. Firstly, the Bible makes this humanities fault. It is important that we understand that humans having an inclination towards “evil” is much more complicated than this. And only by understanding where this inclination actually comes from, can we begin to find forgiveness, respect and clarity for ourselves and others.

We are animals, once driven by primal instincts. Our bodies and minds have evolved and are still evolving. Our ethics and morals evolve as well. When we stop at “the inclination towards sin is our fault” it orients our minds to think that there is something genuinely wrong with us, and that it’s our fault. The truth is, nothing is wrong with us, and it’s not our fault. For hundreds of millions of years animals have been killing and consuming other animals, and still are to this day. It’s not that it’s inherently wrong, it’s just how reality exists.

This is the same with humanity, we are as we were “designed”. The problem with the Bible’s explanation about our “inclination towards sin and evil” is that it doesn’t give the us the invaluable information about human biological and social evolution. And instead blames it on humanity. Again it’s not our fault, the world is and has been an extremely violent place for a very long time.

I agree that humanity has a lot of growing to do but blaming ourselves for the universe operating as it was “intended” is beyond damaging to humanity. In my opinion, we need to understand reality better to genuinely become better.

The standard formulation of the Epicurean paradox (If God is willing but unable, then he is not omnipotent...) relies on a hidden, absurd assumption about the nature of the supreme being.

The Problem of Evil only functions if one subscribes to Orthodox Voluntarism (the belief that the foundation of reality prioritises arbitrary "will" or choice over structural necessity)

The paradox assumes God selected our current physical reality from a repository of unactualised alternatives (a "cosmic menu")

"Choice" is strictly an epistemic function. It is a computational algorithm utilised exclusively by localised systems operating under structural ignorance (data deficit) A system only evaluates options when it lacks the total information required to know the optimal path instantly.

If the foundation of reality (the Supreme Order) is absolutely complete and possesses total data, it lacks the structural ignorance required to deliberate. It cannot experience uncertainty or weigh statistical probabilities.

Because an omniscient foundation cannot deliberate, there were never multiple theoretical universes waiting to be selected. The concept of "alternative possibilities" is a cognitive illusion projected by human observers, not an objective physical reality.

The physical universe is not a manufactured product assembled via an arbitrary decision, but rather the mathematically mandatory structural extension of the foundation itself.

Just as defining a centre point and a radius automatically necessitates the existence of a circumference, a perfect mathematical foundation necessitates its continuous structural extension.

This does not strip of the Supreme Order of freedom. Freedom is not Liberum Arbitrium (the ability to make arbitrary, randomised choices), but as Aseity (the state of existing and functioning with absolute zero external coercion. The universe exists because it is the perfect, unhindered expression of the foundation's complete nature)

If the universe is a logically necessary structure (an inescapable emanation of a complete foundation rather than an arbitrarily selected option) then God did not "choose" to include suffering when alternative options were available.

What biological observers categorise as "evil" or "suffering" is merely the localised, subjective formatting of necessary thermodynamic gradients and structural limits. The contradiction dissolves because the expectation of a pain-free alternative universe is a mathematical impossibility.

Every baby that has been raped, all the people being tortured. All have been watched by God while it happend but he did nothing. It wouldnt take him any amount of effort to stop it, litterely 0. How can people say “we have free will and its human their choices”. So what? That doesnt justify all the pain in the world. Imagane having the power to stop all pain, grief ect and not doing it. How can God claim that he loves us and kids are innocent ect but when they get raped he just allows it to happen. You cant justify it. He could have easily made a world with no pain nothing but he instead acts like everthing evil in this world is our fault even tho he can change it in any way at any time. The whole story is pysco. 2 people ate an apple and now im cursed? Thats the same thing kim Jung-un does when someone tries to escape, punish their family and thoses yet to be born. The more I think about it the more angry i get. How pyshco you gotte be to have watched every single hurtfull thing in this world, grief, rape, torture, death EVERYTHING and not do anything but still wanne be worshiped. How does he even deserve worship? Sure sure he helps people and wants the best but if he really wanted to help us why doesnt he? Why make life so fucking complicated? Why punish non believers, why make the soul of a someone who is gonne be a sex slafe from age 6? Just why, free will? Our choices?

2 Samuel 24:1

"Again the anger of the Lord burned against israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1

"Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take his census of Israel"

The Old Testament authors knew that the Hebrew Bible god was actually Satan who caused every evil and sin and deception. Jesus told us to know them by their fruits and Yahweh's fruits are rotten to the core.

Satan is also described as "This great dragon the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world" Revelations 12:9, and "the father of lies" John 8:4.

Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible has been the driving force and the who caused all the deception and lies.

"And a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, saying, 'I will entice him.' And Yahweh said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, I will go out, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall also succeed; go out and do so.' Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; Yahweh has spoken disaster concerning you." 1 Kings 22:21–23

"And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech..." Judges 9:23

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezekiel 14:9

Satan is also concerned with satisfying his followers carnal and earthly desires seducing them into worshipping him through earthly pleasures and gains.

"Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

For the Lord thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills; A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey; A land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness, thou shalt not lack any thing in it; a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass.  When thou hast eaten and art full, then thou shalt bless the Lord thy God for the good land which he hath given thee." Deuteronomy 8:6-10

"As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may enjoy the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies." Deuteronomy 20:14

I was listening to music recently, (Tyler, the Creator's "MANIFESTO", specifically,) and one line stood out to me in the song. To paraphrase, the line was "That ain't yo' religion, you got that from your momma, she got that from your grandma, she got that from her master". That really stood out to me, so I did a little research; turns out, I share a lot of Malcolm X's early views on christianity in black communities. Essentially, he viewed it as blind to be a black person who followed christianity, a "white man's religion", (which I will now be saying without quotations,) which was used to systemically oppress African-American slaves. He said that enslavers and segregationists used the bible's teachings as a tool for brainwashing black people into submission (such as using the phrase "turn the other cheek" as a nicer way of saying "put up with it").

A little tangent, but I'll draw it all back together; it has been proven through archeological and historical research that there were christian communities in Northern and Eastern Africa circa 4th century. This is a main counterpoint to Malcolm X's views on christianity being a tool popularized as a tool for segregation, to which I say: that doesn't mean anything in this context. Whether or not there were African communities following god centuries before American slave-trading doesn't affect the truth about it; Christianity was used by masters and owners to maintain power over slaves.

It's quite interesting to me to note that the version of the bible that was given to slaves was a special one - not because of the fact that it was different, I would assume that any "version" of anything would differ from its original, but because of the fact that the only changes made were omitting certain verses and books (nearly 90% of the old testament and ~50% of the new testament). Those sections (the best example would be Exodus) were removed specifically to avoid even letting the slaves know that revolution was a possibility. Other verses, (take Colossians 3:22 - "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.") remained for a few main reasons, all of which point towards the idea that these verses were written as a tool to oppress enslaved people. First, the verse (obviously) tells slaves to obey their masters, but the second part is what drives it home (in my eyes, at least); "do it, (not just when they're watching), but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the lord". That has one clear purpose in my eyes. I'll paraphrase in 21st century english - "Slaves, obey your masters; but don't just do it when they're watching you, but do it out of love and admiration for the Lord." What on earth do those two things have to do with each other? Sure, for an example, in ancient times, if farmers stopped farming, then a whole village would starve. But what does that mean today, or during the worst times of slavery in the U.S.? There are no lives on the line in cotton-picking, besides those of the slaves. There is no reason for, unconditionally and absolutely, the slavemaster to be listened to as god. And yet, the verse directly ties unconditionally listening to your master with loving god.

What I mean to say, through all this rambling, is that I belive that christianity was popularized and used as a tool by oppressors of all types - racists, sexists, homophobes, the list goes on - to instill fear in, and manipulate the target group. Malcolm X said it over 50 years ago, and I couldn't agree more.

What do you think?

(Sorry for rambling, I clearly don't plan out my words, and I also got a little heated.)

The early chapters of Genesis contain factual errors, such as ignoring the presence of large, landlocked lakes and calling our non-light-emitting moon a "light". Dismissing those errors as "poetry" is disingenuous because the text presents itself as a straightforward, detailed, chronological writing (showing intention to reveal the process, not just such an event) with high-stakes matters (the creation of the Earth and Heavens, the Fall, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant and Law), and God cannot lie.

If accepting that Moses wrote the majority of the Law, then it wouldn't make much sense to write a fictional or to some degree inaccurate creation text, only to then show that the Sabbath laws which are punished by death hold value because of that story. Other writers and such throughout the Bible also seem to never consider the Law to not be straightforward.

The age of the Earth and evolution also conflict, but those are perhaps uncertain, yet the former has more suggesting or showing it, and the idea that a day isn't just a day or a thousand years but an unknown, longer time or an indefinite time seems unreasonable.

Supporting passages:

• Creation of Earth, Heavens and Seas:
  • "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1
  • "And God said, 'Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.' And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day. And God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good." - Genesis 1:6-10
  • "And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars." - Genesis 1:16
  • "'Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding." - Job 38:4
  • "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host." - Psalm 33:6
  • "Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God, who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever; who executes justice for the oppressed, who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free; the LORD opens the eyes of the blind. The LORD lifts up those who are bowed down; the LORD loves the righteous." - Psalm 146:5-8
  • "Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness." - Isaiah 40:21-23
  • "For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): 'I am the LORD, and there is no other." - Isaiah 45:18
  • "'You are the LORD, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you." - Nehemiah 9:6
  • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made." - John 1:1-3
  • "And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, 'Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, ''Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?" - Acts 4:24-25
• Creation of humanity, dominion, the likeness of God, and dust:
  • "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'" - Genesis 1:26-28
  • "When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." - Genesis 2:5-7
  • "The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, 'This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." - Genesis 2:20-24
  • "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.'" - Genesis 3:19
  • "'Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image." - Genesis 9:6
  • "Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?" - Job 10:9
  • "When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the seas." - Psalm 8:3-8
  • "You return man to dust and say, 'Return, O children of man!'" - Psalm 90:3
  • "For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust." - Psalm 103:14
  • "When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." - Psalm 146:4
  • "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." - Ecclesiastes 3:20
  • "He answered, 'Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?" - Matthew 19:4-5
  • "For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God." - 1 Corinthians 11:7-12
  • "Thus it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven." - 1 Corinthians 15:45-47
  • "For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so." - James 3:7-10
• Sabbath:
  • "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." - Genesis 1:31
  • "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." - Genesis 2:1-3
  • "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." - Exodus 20:11
  • "And the LORD said to Moses, 'You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.''" - Exodus 31:12-17
  • "Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." - Ezekiel 20:12
  • "You came down on Mount Sinai and spoke with them from heaven and gave them right rules and true laws, good statutes and commandments, and you made known to them your holy Sabbath and commanded them commandments and statutes and a law by Moses your servant." - Nehemiah 9:13-14
  • "For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.'" - Hebrews 4:4
• The Fall:
  • "The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'" - Genesis 2:15-17
  • "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, 'Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?' And the woman said to the serpent, 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'' But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." - Genesis 3:1-7
  • "And to Adam he said, 'Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.'" - Genesis 3:17-19
  • "'If I have rejoiced at the ruin of him who hated me, or exulted when evil overtook him (I have not let my mouth sin by asking for his life with a curse), if the men of my tent have not said, 'Who is there that has not been filled with his meat?' (the sojourner has not lodged in the street; I have opened my doors to the traveler), if I have concealed my transgressions as others do by hiding my iniquity in my heart, because I stood in great fear of the multitude, and the contempt of families terrified me, so that I kept silence, and did not go out of doors—Oh, that I had one to hear me! (Here is my signature! Let the Almighty answer me!) Oh, that I had the indictment written by my adversary! Surely I would carry it on my shoulder; I would bind it on me as a crown; I would give him an account of all my steps; like a prince I would approach him. 'If my land has cried out against me and its furrows have wept together, if I have eaten its yield without payment and made its owners breathe their last, let thorns grow instead of wheat, and foul weeds instead of barley.' The words of Job are ended." - Job 31:29-40
  • "But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me." - Hosea 6:7
  • "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22
  • "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law." - Romans 5:12-13
  • "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." - 1 Timothy 2:12-15
  • "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ." - 2 Corinthians 11:3
  • "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." - Revelation 12:9
  • "And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while." - Revelation 20:2-3
• God doesn't lie:
  • "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" - Numbers 23:19
  • "And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.'" - 1 Samuel 15:29
  • "Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior; To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." - Titus 1:1-4
  • "So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us." - Hebrews 6:17-18
• Clarity is important:
  • "Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me." - 1 Corinthians 14:6-11
  • "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." - 1 Corinthians 14:33-34
• Covenants:
  • "And God said to Abraham, 'As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.'" - Genesis 17:9-14
  • "And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob." - Exodus 2:24
  • "Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, 'All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do.' And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, 'All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.' And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.'" - Exodus 24:3-8
  • "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.'" - Exodus 34:27
  • "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant. And if you gather within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy." - Leviticus 26:25
  • "'But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies—if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land." - Leviticus 26:40-42
  • "To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified." - Galatians 3:15

It’s just so much doesn’t make sense, and a lot of “proof” that God is real, Ive seen disproven, and even the other Christians I’ve seen can’t even agree on what they believe, I personally have seen so many conflicting viewpoints, It’s hard to believe they even believe in the same God.

It is impossible to reconcile an “all good” “all loving God” knowing that animals have experienced excessive suffering for hundreds of millions of years.

To clarify I am speaking of the Christian God.

I open the floor to respectful debate and discussion. ❤️