r/EmmaLion

Jack loves sweets. Calls Emma sweets. Sends her home with boxes of sweets. Orders copious sweets at tea where he treats Emma.
Hawks loves sweets. “Chocolate drizzled on everything.” Candy in his pockets. Frequently gives candy to Emma.

Vol 2. May 1. Hawkes to Emma. “Your sins are simply marvellous.”
Vol 6. Feb 2. Jack and Emma. “I know the incorruptible ones when I see them. Best to leave them alone altogether.” “What does that say about me?” “Marvellous things.”

Same volume. Jack. “Do you really wish to know?” (Concerning being late for something to Emma)
Vol 7 Mar 21st. Hawkes “Do you sincerely wish me to answer you?” (Concerning if the letter writer is “lovely.”)

Hawkes is a vicar.
Jack dresses like a priest.

Jack pretends to be a gentleman who looks like he “spent a little too much time in the library at Cambridge.”
Hawkes spent way too much time in the library at Cambridge.

Jack “was all backward ease, fully leaning against his chair, his chin raised, arms lifted behind his head watching the proceedings with a half-smile and sharp eye.”
Hawkes “placed in ankle over his opposite knee, crossing his arms, slouching a bit more against the worn bench. He lifted a half magician’s smile as he looked up.”

Jack rescues Emma from Aunt Eugenia when she sends him an SOS message by sending Agnes Dowd.
Hawkes rescues Emma from Aunt Eugenia when she sends Toff with an SOS message by bringing guardianship letter.

I got it started … keep the list going ….

Early on in the volumes, Emma says that she can’t picture Hawkes by the seaside. As the series continues, Emma begins to associate Hawkes with the sea:
-He and Islington both tell Emma that Hawkes was raised by the sea.
-Hawkes is associated with tides and waves often in Emma’s descriptions.
-At Stonecrop, Hawkes chooses the sea over land- his most straightforward answer to one of Islington’s questions he has ever made. Actually, now that I think about it, that may be the most straightforward answer Hawkes has ever given to a question asked by anyone 😅🫠

What doesn’t make sense to me is… why did Emma also choose the sea over land at Stonecrop?? We are in volume 8 and I can now picture Hawkes by the seaside perfectly… I cannot picture Emma there.

Emma has never lived by the sea. Cambridgeshire, where she was raised, is inland. Do we even know she has ever seen the sea? She tells Islington and Pierce she hasn’t traveled outside of England (and Scotland as a young girl- reachable by land travel.)

So, why ever associate Emma with the sea? Why have Emma choose sea over land? Given her character development at the moment I imagine she would feel more similarly to Pierce- wanting solid ground after a tumultuous teenage-hood and young adulthood.

Only a very few times in the series does Emma get associated with the sea.
-Emma paints her garrett white and is glad it looks like a cottage by the sea- she is happy about this! And that is when her garret starts to feel like a home to her.
-Arabella pictures Emma in a cottage by the sea. Why????
-Of course, there is Hawkes’s line: “you need the sea.”

For Hawkes, “there was always the sea-” although Emma didn’t picture him there at the beginning, I bet she has gotten to know him enough to picture him there now. For Emma, the sea is something she has never had, but seems to fit a need of hers that is even recognized in others.

I can’t picture Emma at the seaside now… will we be able to see her there in future?

Anyone know what date or estimated date Stonecrop was established? Or just a best guess? Asking because I’m making myself a sweatshirt with my Cricut (no profit, just for fun!) I’m also gonna make a St. Crispian’s one eventually so I’ll need the date for that too. I’ll put a rough draft in the comments!

August 23, 1883 - Emma says Pierce's jacket smelled of "storm and musk"

June 21, 1884 - Emma says Hawkes smelled "of dusk and woodland and starlight" (MARRY ME)
(If I remember correctly, his scarf smelled faintly of pear at one point, right? EDIT: ADDED BELOW)

April 22, 1884 - Hawkes' jacket "carried the scent of pear."

Has she ever described the way Islington smells? Between all that dancing and The Incident, she's been in his arms plenty of times to know!

Can you think of any other references to the literal scent of people or their home?

(I know she frequently describes the smell of rain and storm with Pierce's presence but I took that to be a bit more metaphorical and poetic.)

I can’t help speculating on what’s going to happen on the Emma-Pierce front post Stonecrop.
I don’t think the boys are going to take Emma’s choices away directly.

Would Islington invite his ward to stay in the house at Baron’s Square? Will Mariana press to offer her a decent chaperone, now that the family name is on the line? Will she spend the autumn at the Mirrenthal estate, wherever that is, and get to meet Islington’s nieces without a funeral?

Would Islington instead encourage Pierce to spend more time away from Lapis Lazuli? Is there some place Pierce would go to actually work through his things? I don’t think there’s any place as restful to him as being surrounded by these three friends.

What are your thoughts - do they try to “put a more respectable front” on it somehow? Does Islington continue his premarital counseling (inland or coast? Children?)?

3rd post in 2 days i know. Last thing!

Something i have theorized is that Emma is like Katniss in that she isn’t an unreliable narrator per se, but I don’t think things are always as written. In the hunger games we see the story through Katniss’ perspective, and she is a naive girl and so a lot of her assumptions about other characters motivations and intentions are incorrect. Like in the books she’s like HELL bent on the fact peeta is actually playing mind games with her even though he wasn’t the whole time (circumstances i understand). He offers her burnt bread because shes starving pre-hunger games, and she just is thinking (paraphrasing) wow what he’s pitying me and trying to humiliate me??? Like no girl, he’s trying to help you out as a friend.

Im firmly team islington 🫡 right now. So, i’ve been re-reading the books and when shes talking to people or islington she says something along the lines of “oh well he made that sound because OBVIOUSLY xyz” when personally i don’t agree with her interpretation.

I can’t find all the examples i highlighted at the moment but some examples:

- “Islington did not say Ah, but his hazel eyes weighed and measured my existence. I could tell I was found wanting, which is Unrepentant Latin for: Islington had not invited me to this dinner.” (vol 4. October 11th) I doubt that. And we learn a page later she was in fact invited and he was pulling her leg. I feel like her naïveté shines through here, many characters commenting on it.

- “let me rephrase. Islington was watching me with a reluctant an annoyed acceptance that I was destined to be the subject of a public house anthem.” (Vol 5. November 15th) again, this is all what she THINKS he’s thinking. He could be thinking about his beloved hounds for all she actually knows.

- “I snorted and then quickly covered it with a false wail of grief, pretending to be overcome with emotion, I leaned on Islington for support. He stiffened, uncomfortable at my behaviour.” (Vol. 5 November 28th) — i dont doubt he was uncomfortable or stiffened but I think she’s not thinking about WHY he’s uncomfortable. There’s various theories as to why he stiffens uncomfortably.

So i don’t doubt the dialogue is correct, but i think the way in which she assume others perceive her and how she analyzes others actions is not always entirely true. I think it’s true to her, but unfortunately she is the only perspective we will hear so we won’t get confirmation otherwise unless another character explicitly disputes.

I’m doing a reread, and the part where Islington and Hawkes vouch for Emma’s character for Mr Harper is one of the funniest scenes in the series. First, (or firstly iykyk) when she decides not to ask Saff because she’d just asked her to forge a letter is great, and makes Islington pause. Then, the duke shows up to the Cleopatra as they are singing a drinking song about Emma. Finally, the men’s “faint praise” of her is just so funny. Side note: I’d love if Emma begins making money by writing for the Gazette or another paper.

Have we found out the identity of this woman? Emma is discussing with Victoria and this is slipped into the conversation. Not sure if maybe I just missed it. Doing my first re-read of the series.

Vol. 7 — April 2

“And there was that dreadful woman who wrote Mother endless letters asking if you were well and could she visit? I swear the inconvenience of it all put mother half in the ground”

“Pardon, what woman?” I asked

But I was never given an answer.

My literal only guess is maybe Saff? But i feel like it wouldve come up prior.

It occurred to Unfortunately Named Putrid Owl (UNPO) that the Urn equals Hawkes’ curse—and the poker breaking the Urn equals Emma breaking the curse.

I support my theory with the poker-to-Urn symbolism:

Poker = weapon

Urn = Hawkes

Ash = curse released (as demonstrated by the movie visual)

THE PHOENIX RISES!!!!

So, we could really speed up the storyline if someone could just figure out how to slip Emma a wand with a phoenix feather in its core.

Then she could Avada Kedavra that piece of curse right off Hawkes’ soul, and we could move this thing along a little faster.

Problem solved.

Now, I am not suggesting that this would be HEA for Emma and Hawkes.

He could still run off and throw himself at the Moon Goddess.

So it wouldn’t necessarily end the Hawksian intrigue with the storyline.

It would simply eliminate, oh, I don’t know… 2–3 books of this 25-book wait.

Apparently, this is what UNPO’s brain decided to awaken her at 3 a.m. to contemplate.
🫩

I realize this is several years old.... but in the second conclave, Beth Brower said she would share a painting she owns of a man who is very close to her image of Islington. Has anyone seen it or know where it is?

Link to the conclave: https://www.youtube.com/live/3qax-ZcZJSw?si=bjWC6BbXmDPNY1dm

Several commentors have mentioned the empty rooms at LLH being used for great community spirit sorts of things that could also have an income benefit (art studio / schoolroom for street children or new neighbors across the street, etc.)

After vol 8 I had another idea that I think Emma would love even more: What about

a fencing studio?   Can't you see Agnes, Parion, and various neighbors in SC's joining in?    Kids'classes during the day, adults at night?  I think Emma would love it and it would invite all kinds of chaos!

Well. I really don’t think this play relates to EML very much. 😅 Now, don’t get me wrong. It’s my favorite of the three plays. It has some of my favorite poetry I’ve ever read with Hamilton as translator. Aeschylus and the characters in this play have yet to be alluded to in the series, though. I’ll revisit if one of them pops up in future. 

As u/TybaltsCurtain pointed out, we could compare Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter for favorable winds to Aunt Eugenia or The Countess of Ellam with their daughters, which would be appropriate for the upcoming Season in Vol 9. The accompanying vengeance taken upon that sacrifice could be a foreshadowing moment that a gorgon of the Ton will be taken down. Clytemnestra is undaunted and sure of herself- a truly formidable woman, and that is like our Emma. Cassandra likens her to a lioness in the play. Lions, dogs, and eagles are recurrent symbols in Orestria. However, Emma actively does not take revenge even if she could and should- see: Cousin Archibald. Given that Clytemnestra’s story is one of revenge at its center, I don’t see it being very like Emma’s story.  She strikes Agamemnon three times- maybe that’s something? Cassandra is a prophet who was put to death for her prophecies and felt abandoned by the god who favored her, Apollo- a fear of Hawkes’s, perhaps? Maybe, maybe not.

As Agamemnon was underwhelming from our EML lens, I tried to pick up my Henderson translation of Aeschylus’s Oresteia to see if more could be found in the continuation of the trilogy, but after basking in the glory of Edith Hamilton’s translations I just couldn’t get into it... I picked up a few of my other Greek tragedy collections, reading only the intros, and found very interesting info that I think is more fitting for our story: comparisons between the three major tragic Greek playwrights. Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides- Immediately they reminded me of Declan/Islington, Hawkes and Pierce. Info here includes Googleisms and tidbits from the intros I stumbled upon:

• Aeschylus (c. 525–456 BC)=Declan? Maybe Islington???
  • Known as the father of tragedy. He added a second actor to the stage, reducing the focus solely on the chorus and allowing real dramatic conflict. He wrote the Oresteia  trilogy (which begins with Agamemnon), the only surviving complete trilogy of ancient plays. Hamilton equates Aeschylus to Isaiah (as well as Euripides, which I noted in Part One)- a man acquainted with grief. She claims he is not the life-long anti-war rebel that Euripides was, but became more so later in his life. Some of his anti-war verses I include below.
• Sophocles (c. 496–406 BC)=Hawkes?
  • He lived for 90 years, remarkably. He introduced a third actor, which further reduced the importance of the chorus and allowed more complex character interactions. Though only seven of his plays remain, he touched on a wide variety of themes- like Hawkes with his poetry. He focused heavily on human suffering, free will, and the inescapable weight of fate. Per Fagles, Sophocles was interested in poetic theory as well as practice… He seems to have been content to spend all his life at Athens and is said to have refused several invitations to royal courts…Sophocles first won a prize for the tragic drama in 468BC, defeating the veteran Aeschylus. So, a man who can theorize about poetry as well as write and perform it, is happy to be in the town he sees as home and not any high society balls, and who is something of a wunderkind like our Young Hawkes, even overtaking “father” Aeschylus at the height of his own game. His famous works include Oedipus Rex (yes, that Oedipus. But we will focus on the fate of it all rather than the incest of it all…), Antigone, and Electra.

   

• Euripides (c. 480–406 BC)=Pierce! Already discussed in Part One but I’ll include more here. 
  • The Rebel. He is known for portraying psychological realism and questioning traditional religious and societal norms. There are seventeen of his plays remaining. He frequently used the deus ex machina (a plot device where an impossible or hopeless problem in a story is suddenly solved by a surprising, unexpected, and out-of-nowhere event…. Foreshadowing for Pierce??). Per Vellacot, he disliked performing the public duties expected of him… Such a man was likely to win only grudging admiration and little popularity, and during fifty years’ writing of plays for the festivals of Dionysus he was awarded the prize only four or five times… When news of his death reached Athens in  407BC Sophocles appeared publicly in mourning for him. I won’t get too into this as I discuss in Part One, but the catalyst to me analyzing the Three Greek Tragedians was this Sophocles mention.  Vellacot gives only one paragraph to Euripides in his intro, and it ends with Sophocles/Hawkes honoring Euripides/Pierce. Absolutely precious. Anyway, his famous works include Medea, The Bacchae, and The Trojan Women. 
  • Tangent ahead: The more I read about Euripides, the more I think Emma is the one who sees him as “beloved,” which she notes while reading Plutarch in Vol 7 when mentioning the lightning strike, but the world sees him as a grump.  Hmm. That sounds familiar. It may even apply to a Photographer as well as the playwright. 
  • I’m thinking in real time here and went back to Plutarch- OMG!!! Okay, so… Plutarch actually states after mentioning the lightning striking the two graves: “...it may serve that poet’s admirers as a testimony in his favour, that he had in this same fate with that holy man and favourite of the gods.” It is Lycurgus that is described as “beloved-” as a “holy man” and “favorite of the gods,” which sounds like a Lucky Vicar to me- NOT the poet Euripides/Pierce.  In direct opposition, Emma journals that the lightning strike was “taken as a sign of favour [for Lycurgus], as the only other person to whom this happened was beloved Euripides, buried in Macedonia. What a curious detail.” An incorrect detail, em-MA! Unreliable narrator, indeed. This might be my favorite catch in Part Three. I’m giddy!!

***Takes a deep breath*
*Closes all five books in front of me*
*Promises not to go too crazy on a deep dive again soon*
*Silently acknowledges that the above is likely a lie*

I’ll leave you with some of my favorite lines of Agamemnon as penance for not actually analyzing the play itself. 🙂

************
Guide of mortal man to wisdom, 
he who has ordained the law, 
knowledge won through suffering.
Drop, drop- in our sleep, upon the heart 
sorrow falls, memory's pain,
and to us, though against our very will, 
even in our own despite, 
comes wisdom
by the awful grace of God.
*************
And though they wend their way unerringly, 
what those dead suffered may yet work them ill,
—that pain, which never sleeps—and fresh woe come.
Such words you hear from me that am a woman.
But may good conquer, shining clear to all.
Of many blessings this joy I would choose.
************
No hiding place
covers sin.
It blazes forth
a light of death.
*************
And war who trades
men for gold,
life for death,
holding scales
where the spear-points meet and clash,
to their beloved
back from Troy
he sends them dust
from the flame,
heavy dust,
dust wet with tears,
filling urns in seemly wise,
freight well stowed, the dust of men.
They make lament and speak each fair. 
This one so wise in battle-lore, 
that one fell nobly in the fight 
and died— for whom? Another’s wife.
So in silence the women speak. 
***********
To learn is to be young, however old. 
***********
Glad end can make toil to seem merry.
Time, wisest of teachers, will guide you to know
him who dealt justly, him who did evil
************
nothing is sure.
Sickness or health-
they are neighbors.
Thin is the wall between them. 
***********
O world of men, what is your happiness?
A painted show. Comes sorrow and the touch-
a wet sponge—blots the painting out.
And this moves pity, sadder still than death.
**********
As one astray
knows not where to turn him, 
so do I wander witless 
where path is none.

I just happenstance discovered that women were allowed to sit the entrance exam to Oxford starting in April of 1885. Based on how other historical events show up in the story, I wonder if Emma’s dream of higher education/ love of Oxford might be soon realized. A girl can hope. I need more Emma in Oxford. :)

Also Emma with the Fletcher sisters!!!!