r/Enneagram5

Just kidding ofc, but I do have this sp5 friend who’s generally as closed off as you’d expect from a 5 within average health levels, and in our wider group of friends it’s pretty casual for us to say we love each other at the end of conversations. Now she doesn’t usually say it first… until today, to me! Which I consider amazing, and I’m so happy to have her as my friend and to be getting closer to her, which for a long time I didn’t think would be possible with both of us being pretty bad at consistently initiating conversations.

What’s your experience with becoming close with other 5s? Does it come naturally to you to propose hangouts or do they usually happen because of external circumstances like working together?

I’m sx/so541 and I always hear the stereotypical e5 childhood is that they felt intruded upon or whatever but for me it was very different and I was wondering if it was the same for any other e5s? When I was a kid I was very kind caring and generous like I genuinely deeply cared for every single person alive and would give people a million chances and shit. I was also simultaneously getting pretty severely bullied and isolated and also severely emotionally and psychologically abused by my mom. I also never really had friends prior to getting bullied so I never hung out with people like ever except for occasionally at school (before I got bullied and that was only like kindergarten to grade 2). I kept being a really loving kid for quite a long time, I did end up pulling back a lot and alot of people just thought I was a huge bitch but I think yk as a younger kid (like 11) my personality was still developing so idk if I was an e5 at that point yet? I had always been someone ignoring my own needs, I had always been someone keeping my own issues secret unless it was something I had believed I was fully right in (which was kinda warped cuz I got manipulated into believing I was evil lols) and obvs getting bullied I just had to make sure no one thought they had any power over me or affected me especially always having to play alone, I made sure I didn’t need them and they didn’t think I needed anyone cuz that’s what icked me out the most and that’s just what kinda followed me my entire life so far type thing yk? Obvs I have my obsession stuff tho mine I would say is much more focused on others and perspectives but purely out of curiousity. Anyways I’m curious if anyone else is also like that cuz I would still consider myself quite a loving and generous person, I’ll just make sure I’m very casual about it so no one thinks they r special or whatever but also my emotional ties are so strong and also just knowing and understanding how others may feel im much more attentive to that and also open to always being someone people can vent to which I haven’t heard many other 5s say. Just curious if anyone else is like me lol

How often do you feel discomfort from an incomplete picture of the world? If you feel it at all

I often thought that if something upset me,  the fact that I might have missed something common in my life experience, it was shame. But as it turned out, it’s not just shame; there’s also frustration from the fact that there’s now a kind of blind spot that I can’t explore and learn anything about. I know what I’m actually interested in and what I’d like to do for the rest of my life, but even with that, I still can’t help but want to try something or look at something that has nothing to do with me at all. Sometimes it’s even harmful things. And mostly, you’re not really chasing emotions  because negative emotions are unpleasant for me and, overall, not very varied, but rather trying to learn or see how something works. If possible, preferably through your own experience.

Do you think this is more of a personality trait, or could it be related to e5?

Damn, I hope this text is clear. Let me know in any case.

Speaking anecdotally here, but my boyfriend of almost a year (24m) and I (26f) are trying to build a future together but it started really getting challenging around the 9month mark.

One of the things I find most grounding and stabilizing about him in a way I’ve never experienced before is also the one of the most thing perplexing and frustrating aspects of our relationship:

Action vs intellect

We work great in some ways because I’m idealistic and romantic and he is practical and executive.

I come up with the idea, he makes it happen.

I want to go to the fair on a week night and have a present, fun time? Even though he’s working late and got caught up until only an hour and a half before they closed, he wasn’t going to let the evening end without us having a very fun time (even after I called him crying because I was sad and doubted that we’d make it in time) may times since our first meeting have I come up with an idea and he decisively made it happen.

This same quality in him clashes with my own qualities when connection requires depth of intellect. As a 5, I’m so deeply intellectual, he simply cannot keep up. I love him so much but find it so disheartening sometimes when I try to invite him into the absolute hunger I have for insight and I’m met with a wall of “I don’t know, that’s just how I am/see it/feel it should be.” I want the why! I want to understanding. On our first date we played We’re Not Really Strangers and I late bought the expansion pack for couples. The tagline on the box is “What’s More Romantic Than Being Understood?” And damn if that ain’t how I feel.

He tells me he loves me and if I really step out of my own understanding, I do see it. In his consistency, his determination, his keeping of his word. I see it in the way he hast sent me a text telling me he loves me every. Single. Morning. And. Night. Ever since we first said the words to each other. I see it in the way we talk about the future and he’s preoccupied with how we will financially make the dreams we have happen. I see it in the way he works every single day (he’s a blue collar service man) for 12 days straight and still showed up for our anniversary for two of those days despite his own need for the gym and for all of the other responsibilities he’s taken on for family and friends as well as me. His love is pure, it is there, it is for me. But in the interim of those action based affirmations, I also crave verbal affirmation, I crave physical intimacy beyond hand holding and having his arm around me. I crave intellectual intimacy as previously mentioned.

It is very common for couples to have these differing love languages but what are the actual steps that can be taken to bridge the gaps?

I cannot actually complain about the things that make it so hard to connect because I have an equal amount of frustration as I do appreciation for them. The things that make us most different are the things that make our roles in the world so valuable.

But HOW do we make this work in practice when talking about it feels so hard because we are perceiving things so different and it almost feels like we have a language barrier?

I realised that I don’t share my negative emotions at all (even when healthy) and a big thing in my life was always having secrets (all of these mostly years long) that I have genuinely not/didn’t ever tell even a single person, because they had this sacredness to me. I’m seeing this align with the 5 description in the book I’m currently reading and wanted to inquire about how y’all as 5s feel on the topic/if they relate

I don’t wanna write a whole essay here, this is mostly to understand the way the types act on a deeper oevel and if I might be right in my suspicion. I’ve had people say I’m all types of stuff, with the only consensus being head/thinking types (567). I am still extroverted, so I assumed myself to be a 7 but none of the descriptions really grab me.

That’s when I realised I am very private about all the stuff that I actually care about and merely social or extroverted to people (if im not very close to them) i way where it’s just talking about BS or even deeper topics, as long as they don’t cross into that zone

Especially me always being described by most people that know me as an open book, with only me knowing I have very strong partly irrational emotions about stuff that I never mention and only hint at in weird ways If at all has been my biggest issue in trying to find my type, as I feel like the social me and emotional me are very split, so I’ve started considering 5 more

Hello all you fives, I need some advice!

I’m asking on behalf of an enneagram 3, who’s at work with an enneagram 5 boss (disclaimer that they may be mistyped, but their dynamic definitely reads as both avg levels of 3+5, so I wanted to see if we could get some more specific advice using the enneagram angle).

E3 was given a 60 day trial period as a supervisor by her E5 boss. E3 felt that she had very little time to “prove herself”, as previous trial periods were given by E5 to other employees that were up to 6 months long.

Basically, their relationship has skewed more negative as this trial period has progressed. Looking at this through the enneagram angle, it seems like E3 moved too fast for E5’s comfort in an attempt to prove herself.

E3 has moved with urgency, and delivered specific, measurable (positive) outcomes within a short time in an effort to prove that she’s the best fit for the role. However, she feels as though E5 is increasingly resistant to the changes she’s trying to make, avoidant of having any one-on-one meetings, and it also seems as though he’s becoming rather frustrated with E3. E5 is definitely a victim of analysis paralysis, and I’m sure it seems to him that E3 has charged full steam ahead half-cocked, and therefore can’t be trusted with the role (though whether or not that’s actually true depends on who you ask).

There’s a few more weeks left in this trial period, and I’m wondering if there’s any way that E3 can turn this around. She can’t undo the fact that she made a lot of changes in a short time which appears to have alienated him, but is there a way that she can talk to E5 or do something to repair, recover, and increase the chances that she receives the full-time supervisor role?

Any advice would be appreciated!!

How do I understand who I am — 513 or 514 — if my wing is 4? I don’t understand when it’s considered a manifestation of the wing and when it isn’t !

To be honest, I have always had mostly unsaid conflicts in my bonds because the other person expected me to be available to them always once we were close, and that’s not really something I like to commit to.

In many stages of my life though, I perceived myself to be very very generous with my time and energy, even though the person on the other end didn’t necessarily seem to think so. It is usually an effort for me to show up consistently and when I do I perceive myself to be a very good friend. I’ve learned that’s not necessarily true, and that giving what you can and then retreating for days on end can read as being uncaring or unstable, which was very disappointing to me. I love my close ones a lot, and I genuinely believed I was good at showing it until I thought more about it.

Cutting ties with people who overwhelm me more than they interest me was something I also hadn’t realised I was doing. Or rather, I didn’t realise what the reason was, just that I needed to get out of every conversation as quickly as possible, and somehow communicate that I’m not looking to form a long lasting connection unless there’s a real reason to.

I’m not sure about the morality of this whole thing, whether it makes a 5(or an unhealthy 5), a bad friend. Is someone who scoffs at seeing messages from friends a bad person if they eventually gather the energy to check in on them anyway? Ignore the question if you want, the 1 fix is showing.

I wanted to share something I’ve observed in myself to see if anyone else relates, and to understand whether this is something inherent to our Enneagram type or if it can be explained through it.

I struggle significantly when it comes to making plans to go out and socialize. Even though I like the people involved, and even though I know the activity or plan itself isn't something I dislike—and that I might actually enjoy it—I feel anxious while making the plans and right up until the day arrives. I just don't want to go out; imagining all the sensory stimulation almost makes me feel nauseous.

Once we actually meet up, after an hour or two, I become quiet and lose the desire to talk. It feels like my brain just shuts down. I end up wishing the people next to me would keep talking while I just stay silent and exist there. There are a few people I hang out with, and I have no issues with them. Our relationships and the topics we discuss are deep enough, and I truly enjoy their conversation. However, after a certain point, I feel completely drained physically, mentally, and spiritually. On my way back home, I get headaches, feel sleepy, and even listening to music can feel overwhelming. This happens regardless of whether the topics were deep or not. I don't have any underlying physiological issues—my blood work is completely fine. Yet, no matter who I'm with, this is always how it goes.

On top of this, I can become severely impatient and irritated. The very next day after hanging out, I often don't want to text or message that person. Even if they didn't do anything wrong or make me feel negative, it's as if the person starts to irritate me, and I can't figure out why. It upsets me because these are well-meaning, good people. It's not their fault. When I look inward, I don't have any repressed emotions, lingering anger, or resentment. I simply reach a point where I don't want to interact with people I've been exposed to for too long. My best friend is someone who constantly wants to stay in touch, chat, and hang out. We've discussed this many times, and they seem to understand me now. Still, who I am sometimes bothers me. But I can't force myself either; this is as much as I can do.

I realize that most of the time, I don't make plans because I'm genuinely excited or motivated to see people. Instead, I make plans because I feel the need to be stimulated, to think, to analyze things during conversation, or simply because I feel I should get out, move around, and get some fresh air. This feels strange to me. Other people meet up with me—and with each other—with so much love, excitement, and joy. Inside, I just can't find or feel that kind of enthusiasm. Of course, I care about them and choose to spend time with them, but seeing them like that while I am like this makes me wonder: Am I a bad person? Am I failing to give people what they deserve?

When I get back home, I realize I have zero patience left for my parents or family members—for their stories, small talk, or anything similar. Sometimes I even feel a surge of anger when they push to talk or try to show me something on their phone. I love them, but an involuntary irritation arises when I come in from outside, or when I'm trying to process something in my head and my thoughts are loud. I try my best to explain myself calmly because I know they don't deserve negative treatment.

Do you relate to this? Have you found an answer or explanation for this within yourselves?
Thank you if you've read this far, and thanks in advance for your responses.

What's your experience with indecision? Do you feel like an indecisive person, especially when it comes to bigger changes? How has it affected you, and have you become stressed out over a choice because of it? Did you become paralyzed?

And if you've managed to overcome indecision, how did you do it?

I know that we study a lot and gain a lot of knowledge in those areas we care about/like.

My goal in life is to share all that I learn, do something with it. But I'm a perfectionist and I want to know every little detail, because if not, I feel I'm not allowed to participate and share my ideas. I feel that there are always people who can know more than me and because of that, I shouldn't share anything. Which doesn't make sense...

How do you handle this if you have the same problem? In what areas do you study/work?

Round about six months ago I wrote this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Enneagram5/comments/1qq9kxv/5s_and_2s_how_to_stop_the_doom_loop/

Update: As you can imagine, it didn't end well with that 2. I've lost the job, because I felt so helpless. Unfortunately I was not able to stop that. One day I accepted my fate and let it all happen. I called in sick three times until they finally fired me.

The attacks appeared from all directions - I was attacked by the boss (a 6 who reacted aggressively to my withdrawal), the team leader (a 3 who helped the 2 manipulate the right people) and my colleages (a group of extroverts who suddenly started to be super envious and the more introverted people who didn't talked to me any longer, maybe to be safe - this doesn't came from nowhere).

I witnessed this older 2-woman, a supervisor who has worked at the company for decades (and is therefore very experienced and powerful), manipulating a young trainee during her exam period. She played the victim (of course I'm the villain) and asked the trainee to comfort her. Drama triangle. Since that conversation, the trainee hasn't spoken to me, nor have other colleagues. I'm the bad one, just because I wanted a little rest. I hate this so much.

........................................

I have a new job now and guess what? I work in a little team (4-5 people) and we have an unhealthy 2 again. I needed three days to spot his type. First I thought he is a 3, but I'm sure now he is a 2w3. Obviously sexual instinct. That guy is much crazier / much more intense than the formerly 2 who was a more strategic person (sp or so). It escalated within four days.

My boss gave me a lot responsibilities (with some leading stuff, this is my first time I lead at work), but the 2 who has a lower rank in hierarchy but more experience in that workplace really doesn't like having me that.

From day 1 he is unconsciously undermining my autonomy so he can "care" for me, but I didn't get it early enough. E.g. I think he had the expectation that I beg him to bring me home after work, of course not communicated clearly. He waited for me, drove behind me (bicycle) and such things, until I made the boundary clear. Which made him angry and me feeling guilty, but at least he was gone soon. One of the commenters in the other post told me that 2s feelings are not my responsibility. Okay, I understand and its true, but angry 2s are so threatening and its so hard to not feel guilty with those people, because they throw guilt trips all the time. Also this means he must have been so sure that I WANTED IT TOO. This gave me self doubt because I'm asked myself what I emit to let him think that and if I am the problem. Maybe it has nothing to do with me, but now I'm angry and I can't stand when people awake such feelings, because I loose myself and my clear vision in those process.

You want more examples? He wanted me to eat his half eaten salad. He said he didn't like it. But he hid the truth until I was confronted with the disgust. So thanks for another overwhelmingly moment after senseless and sudden emotional intensity. He intercepted me somewhere and said, "I have a salad for you, eat it!" and let it sound like he made me a nice gift or so. Then I saw he'd put the salad on my seat. A supermarket salad in a disposable container (no problem so far), which he'd been given by someone (here starts the problem, I don't even know that other person). He had already eaten half of it. On top of it lay his disposable wooden fork, ALREADY USED. I quickly put the salad back to his area, then he appeared and tried to guilt trip me, like its my fault he had to throw it away. I told him very clearly that I wasn't going to eat his salad (he got angry again and I felt guilty for talking so cold and harsh again) and so I helped him seeing his possibilities (at least not another guilt trip, but end of drama, so maybe this was good). Later he'd bothered the other colleagues with it too, but not as demanding he did it with me. He treated me in this matter as if we were longtime friends or as if I were his wife. He is without distance. Why should I, a person he met two days ago first time, eat his used salad?

Now I sit here with another escalation I was not able to stop. As I said, I got all this responsibility which I probably like when I were not with a person like him. In any moment I try to act within the higher responsibility he stops it. He makes it subtle, that I don't know if others recognizes it, and I myself am unsure until I'm alone again to reflect the situation in quiet. It is like this: I try to take the lead as my boss expects me to, then the 2 suddenly undermines it. Like he says "no", but not openly. E.g. he don't listen, he misunderstands me on purpose all the time, runs away while we talk. Or he says something serious/sarcastic like "oh, you are the big boss now, right?" Another guilt-trip. I'm not able to see it when it happens.

Of course we have some misogyny in it, too. There are some hints he is right-wing. He says things like "I don't want you to think I'm harrassing you", while he comes closer and closer. As I said, he is without distance. It sounds like a blame, not like a worry.

Or when I try to just be direct he tells me reproachful I'm not friendly, while he talks about other people in bad ways the whole day. Especially about my predecessor. The 2 laughs about him, tells me a lot about how nobody listened to him and how he failed and what a loser he is. Once that guy even had an work accident. The 2 showed me even the "special place" where it happened and he thought about himself as the greatest person ever. After what I heard I think my predecessor must be a good person, sensitive, smart and maybe a 5, too. I can't help but I really like that guy, although I never met him.

Whatever I say or do the 2 goes immediately in full intensity mode. And all the time he comes with little attempts to destroy my autonomy here and there. I cannot help myself, I get overwhelmed so fast when he does it. Also he starts to integrate the colleagues into his crazy game. They seem to like him. I'm asking myself if I'm bad in leading or responsibility stuff at work, or that I'm generally the problem there, because they make him look so normal.

That 2 does it as subtle as the other 2 but (who would expect that) with much higher intensity, so probably I'm the only one who knows what happened. I'm not sure about that. But he is much faster than me, he already talked to my boss.

I was so overwhelmed after a few hours of hell with that 2 I've told him I do not want the responsibility any longer. And in that moment I was convinced this is true, that I don't want it. But giving up is clearly WHAT THOSE 2 WANTS AND NOT ME! He manipulated me successfully and I didn't get it in that situation, this is so crazy. Tbh, for me this possibility was a huge chance and probably everything is destroyed now. After just four days. I start to realize his 3-wing in this moment I'm writing this. Probably the role I have is his goal to achieve and he wants it for himself and I am the dumb person who gave it to him. I want to cry.

I have to admit that - at that point I told him I don't want the responsibility - I was not already aware about how unhealthy that man really is. Obviously I give those people the benefit of the doubt still for too long. Maybe the first time a stranger wants to do too much for me I have to stop it. But it doesn't feel threatening first. They came across like good people and I still fall for it. But wtf, all of this happens just within four days! What else can I do to not be bullied by those people?

Just a few moments after saying out loud that I don't want the responsibility any longer I suddenly understood what is happening and immediately started crying. He played the understanding angel: "I don't want to see you so sad". Then he talked to the boss behind my back, without telling me he will do that. The boss talked to me later that day and I was still crying, because I thought this can't be real (and yes the "why me" thing - not proud of it).

It looks like the boss still wants me to do the job because they do not have enough people, but he saw me crying. I was not very open in that conversation. Also today I was not at work. Called in sick, already planning my termination, because I see the catastrophe we come closer to. He will sabotage my work in any possible way, manipulates the colleagues or anyone or will do a revenge trip when the wonder happens and I win. Same sh*t, different 2. Also I'm not sure if the boss is strong or interested enough. The organisation has obviously a lot problems.

I don't know if anyone will read this, but if people like that exist I would be thankful for some good tips or insights or whatever you think could help. I think that 2 is a 2w3, sx/so and ENFJ.

Asking fellow Christian 5s: what parts of the bible have you found really helpful with regard to facing some of your own weaknesses?

I’m looking for ways to let the Lord into the following:

-My core scarcity mindset

-The need to understand everything fully and frustration with not being able to

-My preoccupation with being understood

-Concerns about idealism and learning to detach myself from the outcome/maintain the principle that I am a follower of the Lord even if he does not deliver to me what I think I need.

Please share passages/books or bible studies which have helped you in ways that seem to be common themes pertaining to the enneagram 5 type.

It would be a bonus as well to get to hear how it helped you/why it resonated with you. Please share!