r/IndianExMuslimSpace

We've left Islam but we still have Muslim identity. Through our name people assume that we're Muslim. We're not going to tell everyone one by one that we're atheist because that'll probably create bigger problems.

Radical Hindutva people use derogatory terms and generalize all Muslims. I mean they're a small minority but some of them are extremely vocal in derogatory things and many of them do such things behind the back.

People assume that we oppose PM Modi and BJP.

What's your thoughts on this and related things?

Edit:

Adding few more thoughts.

Most of the Hindus support Modi and BJP and that's how they win election after election. I mean the distance between Hindus and Muslims will only increase if most of the Hindus keep supporting BJP and most of the Muslims keep supporting the party which is in direct opposition to BJP. This will only help BJP as they'll easily win if 80% Hindus votes are polarised in comparison to 14% Muslims votes. So BJP wants more polarisation.

Should Muslims depolarise themselves as polarisation of 14% Muslims votes has counter effect of polarization of 80% Hindus votes?

Should Muslims vote on healthcare, education, infrastructure, development, employment, electricity, clean water, clean air, road, public transportation, women's safety, crime, inflation, national (internal and border) security, and other essential utilities instead of voting as a group to defeat BJP?

I mean Muslims want Hindus to vote on above issues instead of Hindutva but they themselves don't vote on these issues. Muslims have the highest stake in secularism in India so they must be secular first before expecting secularism from others.

Instead of always in opposition to Modi and BJP, support and oppose the policies individually rather than blanket opposition to Modi and BJP and blanket support to those who are in direct opposition to them. By doing this, Muslims will be seen as true followers of secularism and their allies will increase and opponents will decrease.

By this distance between Hindus and Muslims will decrease instead of increasing. This is the solution I keep in front of you all of the problem statement which I mentioned in the beginning.

I mean I don't want Muslims to be in forever opposition (anti-establishment) to one of the biggest political party in everything in India because this hurts Muslims.

Pedophilia is a crime against humanity. Pedophilia triggers the moral conscience of humanity. Pedophilia is a classified psychiatric disorder by humanity. As Dostoyevsky wrote;

"I renounce the higher harmony altogether. It’s not worth the tears of that one tortured child." (The Brothers Karamazov, Book V, Chapter 4).

Yet;

In the Islamic world, this crime against humanity is not presented as a transgression. Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh have issued a formal ruling supporting that girls are ready for marriage at age 10-12. Dr. Zakir Naik sit in front of a camera and smile as he narrate the story of Aisha and Mohamed. He clearly says there is no doubt about the age of Aisha. And Sheikh Assim Al-Hakeem said he will be honored to give his own 6 month old daughter to the prophet in marriage. Mind you, he has daughters, proving to the world that a devotion to tradition can override even the most basic paternal instincts.

Then there are those among the scholars like Mufti Menk who prefers not to speak about it directly, and deflect it. People like him rather defend the faith, their image and bury the moral concern. They seek to make it easy for the public to compartmentalise the horror, while the underlying legal and moral justification remains very much alive.

Finally there are many modern apologists, whose moral framework has somewhat evolved from the barbaric framework of the 7th century, and try to defend the pedophile prophet by confusing themself. Illogical argument without any real permit from Islamic primary sources itself. They want modern morals and yet romanticise a barbaric prophet. The existence of all these people itself gives you a clear message;

A pedophile in the name of a prophet for all humanity, for all times, have risen in 7th century Arabia. Some choose to defend him, others choose to ignore it and finally some choose to cause confusion, hoping to bury it. Let’s dissect this, with primary Islamic sources and debunk the claims of those who choose to defend it. This article will be long, so I will insert dividers in between so it remains clear and accessible. This article is dedicated to all victims of Islamic pedophilia. For your tears. For your silence. And for your pain. We shall let the world see it for what it is.

——————

Quran;

Surah At-Talaq (65:4)

وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشْهُرٍۢ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ۚ وَأُو۟لَـٰتُ ٱلْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ ۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُۥ مِنْ أَمْرِهِۦ يُسْرًۭا

“And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allāh - He will make for him of his matter ease.

— Saheeh International

In order to understand this verse better lets look at the specific Arabic linguistic construction. The verse is structured to categorize different types of women and their waiting periods (Iddah) before they can remarry. The smoking gun lies in the third category which I will show below;

وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ

Wa-alla'i lam yahidna

“and [also for] those who have not menstruated”

This is the most critical phrase. It is the permit that these apologists try to bury.

The Particle "Lam" (لَمْ):

In Arabic grammar, Lam is a "negation of the past" that continues into the present. Unlike a general "no," Lam indicates an action that has not yet occurred but is expected to in the future.

The Verb "Yahidna" (يَحِضْنَ):

This is the plural feminine form of the verb for menstruating.

Hence the legal implication:

By grouping those who "have not yet menstruated" with those who are getting divorced, the Quran creates a legal category for divorced children. You cannot have a divorce without a marriage. Therefore, by defining the Iddah for a girl who has not reached puberty, the text therefore validates the marriage of that girl.

Lets’s also jump into the reason for revelation (Asbab al-Nuzul)

According to Tafsir al Tabari and Tafsir al baghawy, when the verse regarding the waiting periods for women were first revealed in 2:228, the companions of Mohamed were confused about two groups of women who do not have monthly cycles. Honestly it’s very disturbing to write this even but they asked for; the the women who are too old to menstruate and the girls that are too young to menstruate yet.

To further strength this pedophilia in Islam let me just highlight;

Ibn Kathir: identifies the group as those who have not reached the age. He explicitly links the "three month" rule to the child’s lack of a biological cycle.
Tafsir al Jalalayn: the book mentions clearly that those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall also be three months.
Tafsir al Qurtubi: Qurtubi says the verse proves that the marriage of a young girl is permissible, because Allah has established a waiting period for th divorce. The logic is that divorce only happens after a valid marriage.

This is why the Grand Mufti and Sheikh Assim speaks so confidently in their barbaric claims. They are not inventing something outside of Islam. They are simply repeating the 1400 year old tradition like parrots without developing their own moral framework. Apologists framework has evolved just abit more so they are ashamed to admit it.

Now this verse actually adds a secondary, and a more disturbing legal reality. Since we established that a man can marry children, this creates a new tension. At what point can the grown adult husband begin sexual activity? And yes, the scholars of Islam did define the limits of “enjoyment” (Istamata) before the child was deemed physically capable of full intercourse. Below is how grooming of minor is codified in Islam;

Shafi'i School:

Mentions the limit for intercourse is the girl’s ability rather than the age nine. And marriage contract itself grands legal rights if she is ready for intercourse.

Hanafi School:

Confirms that the husband has the right to "enjoyment" from the moment of the contract, even if full intercourse is delayed for physical reasons.

Hanbali School:

Stated that if a wife is too young for intercourse, the husband can still “enjoy” her through kissing and embracing.

Maliki School:

Confirms that a father has the right of "compulsory guardianship" (Jabr). He can marry off his virgin daughter, no matter how young, without her consent. The limit is that while the husband should not penetrate the girl if she is too small and would be harmed, he is not prohibited from other forms of sexual intimacy or closeness (Muqaddamat al Jima).

Ayatollah Khomeini (Shia):

Explicitly permits "thighing" (Mufakhadhah), hugging, and touching with desire even for a "suckling baby," while forbidding penetration until age nine.

The Book of Fatwas of the Islamic Network states:

“There is no harm in ejaculating between the thighs of a young girl who cannot bear intercourse, such as masturbating with her hand, fondling her, and kissing her, provided that he avoids menstruation and anal intercourse….“

“Sheikh Al-Islam Zakariya Al-Ansari said in Al-Ghurar Al-Bahiyya: (And the husband) i.e., the husband (is permitted to enjoy) his wife in every way (even masturbating with her hand, even if it is not permissible with his hand, and even penetration into her vagina from the direction of her anus.”

And here it says:

“If this girl is too young to withstand intercourse... he may touch her, embrace her, kiss her, and ejaculate between her thighs.”

As you can see from above. Even for the Quranist, who quickly ditch the Hadith to save Mohamed’s face, they are still left in a hard place. Quran permits it. Mohamed committed the act, which we will explore later. Abd the permission of Quran has lead being a pedophile a codified right in Islam. There is no middle ground that apologists can rely on. The law isn’t designed to protect the child’s development. It’s there to protect the husband’s “property”. The sheikhs who claim that Islam cares about children, is also holding on to this as divine truth.

————

Pedophile Mohamed’s Tradition

The first smoking gun from the tradition comes from the victim herself.

Sahih al-Bukhari 5134

‎حَدَّثَنَا مُعَلَّى بْنُ أَسَدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا وُهَيْبٌ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَزَوَّجَهَا وَهْىَ بِنْتُ سِتِّ سِنِينَ، وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهْىَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ‏.‏ قَالَ هِشَامٌ وَأُنْبِئْتُ أَنَّهَا كَانَتْ عِنْدَهُ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ‏.‏

Narrated `Aisha:

that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet (ﷺ) for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Here she admits that she was a child when Mohamed married her. And it gets even more interesting, as she further tells us;

Sahih al-Bukhari 6130

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ كُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ عِنْدَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَكَانَ لِي صَوَاحِبُ يَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي، فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إِذَا دَخَلَ يَتَقَمَّعْنَ مِنْهُ، فَيُسَرِّبُهُنَّ إِلَىَّ فَيَلْعَبْنَ مَعِي‏.‏

Narrated `Aisha:

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Here you can see the sources directly admitting that she was a young girl, playing with her dolls with her friends. And that playing dolls was allowed for her because she was a little girl. Why don’t we even make this case more stronger? Let’s look at Sahih Muslim;

Sahih Muslim 1422 d

وَحَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَحْيَى، وَإِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَأَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ وَأَبُو كُرَيْبٍ قَالَ يَحْيَى وَإِسْحَاقُ أَخْبَرَنَا وَقَالَ الآخَرَانِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنِ الأَسْوَدِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهْىَ بِنْتُ سِتٍّ وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهْىَ بِنْتُ تِسْعٍ وَمَاتَ عَنْهَا وَهْىَ بِنْتُ ثَمَانَ عَشْرَةَ ‏.‏

Narrated 'A'isha :

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old, and he (the Holy Prophet) took her to his house when she was nine, and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old

I will list more Hadiths below that backs the statement that Aisha was 6 when she got married and 9 when the marriage was consummated.

There are even more Hadiths which I haven’t listed. Others are welcome to add it in the comment section below.

This extensive list of citation serves to prove the matter of Aisha is not a single misunderstood narration. But a systematic, cross referenced and multi sourced record that proves Mohamed as a pedophile.

When scholars like Mufti Menk avoids to address Aisha’s age, while quoting other Hadiths, it just goes to show that they are willingly avoiding the subject. Ultimately this comes across as hypocritical.

—————-

Addressing the false claims of apologist who lives in denial.

Claim 1: The "Asma’s Age" Calculation

Apologists claim that Aisha’s older sister, Asma, was 10 years older than her. Since Asma died in 73 AH at the age of 100, she must have been 27 during the Hijra (migration). This would make Aisha 17 at the Hijra and 19 at the time of consummation. There are of course variations in their calculations as they are in confusion among themself.

Reality check: This calculation relies one Daif narration to contradict the eye witness testimony of Aisha herself in the Sahih Hadith. Hence why no madhab or scholar agrees with it. Choosing a Daif claim over the Sahih will collapse the entire religion. It gives access to worse Daif Haidths to be taken into account as well. Ask them to bring a primary source. They will fail at it. If Bukhari is "wrong" or "lying" about the age of the Prophet’s wife, why should anyone believe him about the Five Pillars of Islam or the method of prayer? Hence the claim is debunked, if they wish to even protect their religion. Their argument is based on subjective feelings more than objective evidence. Isn’t that what a Muslim’s belief anyway is? And if they insist on the claim it just proves it.

Claim 2: Battle of Badr Participation

There is a Hadith stating that only those aged 15 and older could participate in the Battle of Badr. Since Aisha was present at Badr (providing water), she must have been at least 15.

Reality check: The age limit of 15 applied to combatants. Women and children frequently accompanied the camps to provide water, nurse the wounded, or watch from the rear.

In Sahih al-Bukhari 2881, Aisha describes herself and Umm Sulaym carrying water skins on their backs at the Battle of Uhud (the year after Badr). This was a support role, not a combat role that required an adult age certificate.

Claim 3: The "Biological Maturity"

That women back then were magically mature for penetration at young age due to heat or because it was 1400 years ago.

Reality check: Scientific research shows the opposite of the apologist claim. Heat does not accelerate puberty, nutrition and body fat do. The most cited research on the onset of puberty is the Frisch Revelle Hypothesis. It establishes that menarche (the first period) is triggered by the body reaching a "critical weight" and fat percentage (approx. 17% body fat). In 7th century Arabia, food was scarce and nutrition was poor. High stress, low calorie environments actually delay puberty because the body does not have enough energy reserves to sustain a pregnancy. Even today we do not observe children in Sahara getting fully developed by age 8. Interestingly we notice something else in the case of Aisha. They tried to fatten Aisha instead of baking her in the desert to make her hit puberty;

Sunan Ibn Majah 3324

It was narrated that ‘Aishah said:

“My mother was trying to fatten me up when she wanted to send me to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) (when she got married), but nothing worked until I ate cucumbers with dates; then I grew plump like the best kind of plump.”

This shows that they were hastening to make her induce puberty for the pedophile Mohamed, who likely was getting impatient, as children hit puberty later then 9 years? Want proof of that? Paleopathology shows that girls in ancient and medieval times reached puberty significantly later than modern girls, usually between ages 15 and 17, due to the lack of modern growth hormones and consistent protein.

In addition, even if a girl hits puberty that doesn’t mean she is mature. The Prefrontal Cortex the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, understanding consequences, and complex reasoning does not finish developing until age 25. In the year 624 or 2026, a 9 year old child's brain is physically incapable of consenting to marriage or understanding the lifelong implications of a sexual contract with a 53 year old man.

A child 1400 years back and a child today is the same. This is simple biology. The human genome changes at a rate of roughly 0.5% per million years.

Claim 4: Fatima and Aisha age gap

Apologists claim Fatima was born when Muhammad was 35. Since Fatima was allegedly 5 years older than Aisha, and Muhammad was 52 at the Hijra, they calculate Aisha must have been 12 at the Hijra and 14/15 at consummation.

Reality check: The birth year of Fatima is recorded differently in various biographies, some say she was born when he was 41. This is another logical trap. Using a disputed date of one person (Fatima) to override the explicit testimony of another (Aisha). Using Fatima’s birth year as a "proxy" is a secondary deduction that no classical jurist ever used to change the law. The evidence above speak itself for Aisha’s age.

Claim 5: Surah Al-Qamar Memory

Aisha says she remembers the revelation of Surah Al-Qamar (54) while she was a girl playing. This Surah was revealed in the 5th year of Prophethood. If she was born in the 4th year (as 6/9 suggests), she would be an infant and couldn't remember it.

The Hadith in question; Sahih al-Bukhari 4876

Reality check: The Hadith actually says she was a Jariyah (young girl) playing when she heard it. This doesn't mean she heard it the moment it was revealed; it means she remembers playing while that Surah was being recited in the household. In the early years of Islam, the Quran was recited constantly. A child remembers what they hear repeatedly.

In the early Meccan period, "revelation" wasn't a one time event that vanished into a book. There was no book at the time. When a Surah like Al Qamar was revealed, it became the "song" of the community. It was recited in the homes, during the night prayers, and shouted at the Quraish in the streets. For a child growing up in Abu Bakr’s house, the Quran was the atmosphere. When Aisha says, "This was revealed while I was a girl playing," she is describing the period of her life during which that specific message was being introduced and repeated in her environment. Unlike her age of marriage and consumption of marriage. Which she specifies. To use a vague memory of "playing while verses were revealed" to call her a liar about her own wedding age is the height of academic desperation.

Claim 6: The character of Hisham

They claim Hisham (the narrator) became senile or untrustworthy when he moved to Iraq (Baghdad), and since he is the source of the age Hadith, it’s unreliable.

Reality check: Bukhari and Muslim were fully aware of Hisham’s move to Iraq. They specifically chose narrations from him that were verified by other chains. The age of 9 is narrated by people other than Hisham, such as Al-Aswad (in Muslim 1422d). If Hisham is "untrustworthy," then roughly 25% of all Sahih Bukhari must be thrown out. Another suicide attempt on their religion.

Claim 7: Imam Malik didn’t narrate it

They claim Imam Malik, the resident of Medina, didn't include the age in his Muwatta, suggesting the Iraqis (Baghdad) invented it.

Reality check: Yea ok, he does narrate it. Here, Muwatta recorded by Malik’s student Al Shaybani. He records the marriage at 6 and consummation at 9.

Claim 8: Life Expectancy

Apologists says people only lived to 30, so 9 was middle-aged. This is a classic statistical trick. It is is based on the Mean Life Expectancy.

Reality check: In the 7th century, if a child survived the "danger zone" of ages 0–5, their biological clock was almost identical to a modern human's. They were expected to live into their 60s or 70s. Since there were many deaths of infants the mean is reduced.

Claim 9: “Aisha didn’t complain”

This is one of the worst claims to make. Especially when we look from the lens of psychology. They have no consideration of the victim.

When a child is raised to believe a specific adult is their future spouse, their "consent" or "happiness" is not an expression of adult agency, but a result of psychological molding. Aisha was promised to pedophile Mohamed when she was six. From that point on, her entire social reality was centered around this future role. Psychological Source: The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) explains that grooming involves "building a relationship, trust, and emotional connection" to make the abuse seem like a natural part of a relationship. We have seen in above Haidth where mohamed visit Aisha while she was playing dolls.

When a child is removed from their parents and placed in the home of an adult, they become 100% dependent on that adult for survival, social status, and emotional validation. This creates a deep psychological bond that the victim perceives as "love" because it is their only path to safety and belonging.

Claim 10: Her parents were ok with it

The argument that "her parents were okay with it" assumes that parents always act in the best interest of the child.

Reality check: History and law prove this is false. Throughout history, parents have sold children into slavery, forced them into labor, or used them as political pawns.

Laws are created specifically because humans (including parents) can be abusive, selfish, or blinded by ideology. If "parental consent" were a valid moral shield, then child labor, child trafficking, and honor killings would be legal as long as the parents signed off on it. Human rights are inalienable, meaning they belong to the individual child and cannot be "given away" by a parent. A parent does not have the moral right to consent to the sexual violation of their child.

This video has the testimony of a child being given for marriage by her father to someone because the father owe 100 USD. It also carries testimony of others who didn’t want to marry, but were forced to.

Claim 11: It was normal back then

The "it was normal back then" defense is one of the most common shields used to deflect criticism. Apologists often point to other cultures to provide context. This is a worst move for a religiou argument.

If a religion defends its practices by saying "everyone else was doing it," it is admitting that its moral code is socially constructed rather than divinely inspired.
If a book is meant to be a guide for all of humanity until the end of time, it must transcend its environment. If it merely reflects the flaws of its time. Immoral things like child marriage, slavery, concubinage. Making it a 7th century relic.
Humanity does not stay static. Our understanding of suffering, autonomy, and rights has consistently expanded over time. This is often called Moral Realism. At one time people practiced human sacrifice. As we gather more data on psychology, pain, and biology, our circle of empathy grows. If a religion claims to be the "final word," it should be at the front of that progress, not trailing behind the "norms" of 7th century Arabia.

Whataboutism is apologist last resort. The irony is that they say the region is for everyone. When they reach for "whataboutism," they aren't just using a weak argument, they are effectively demoting their "eternal" religion to a local, temporary human custom. The barbarian 7th century Arabia.

As you can see, when all these claims of modern apologist have been put in one place, it looks exactly like excuses. Deflections. Desperately trying to compartmentalise their belief. When a faith drops this low, then one thing is clear. It has ceased to be a timeless guide for humanity and has become a historical prisoner of its own context.

————-

Therefore, based on the primary sources and the debunked apologetic claims, Islam does not merely permit child marriage but provides the specific legal and scriptural framework to justify pedophiles. By codifying the marriage and consummation of a nine year old as, pedophile Mohamed transformed a crime against humanity into an eternal religious right, proving his moral framework is a barbaric relic rather than a timeless guide. Being in this religion in the 21st century is a moral crisis. And being an apostate is the best choice to make. So my kin in apostates, tell them;

“Say [O apostates], ‘Surely my critical thinking has guided me to a linear logic, a path of intellectual freedom, the thought of the wise, the knowledgeable, who are not among the believers of an imagined god.’”

Apostate’s Quran (6:161)

The Apostate has spoken.

And verily, the words of the apostate thunder with weight immeasurable, dwarfing the hollow lies spewed by the false hearted believers!

And for Aisha, the victim who never knew!

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