r/Porcelain

Hi all!

Recently added this piece to my collection and hoping for an ID and potential identification of the signature/monogram on the back

Many thanks in advance :)

Sharing this KPM cup and saucer from my small collection. It commemorates the end of the British occupation of the Cologne area of the Rhineland after World War I in January of 1926.

Unfortunately it has a repaired chip on the saucer's underside, but it does not detract at all from how much I like this cup and is not visible unless turned over.

I had once found an advertisement for this in a scan of a period publication online, but being an idiot did not save it. I wish I had as it had the original price information for this and other KPM cups of the time.

A quick note before you read: I know my posts are exceptionally long, highly structured, and deeply systematic—to the point where people on Reddit sometimes mistake me for an AI bot! I promise I am very much a human collector. Antique collecting is purely my personal passion, not my profession. However, my unique approach comes from my 40-year career as a scientific researcher. I naturally treat my hobby like a research project—online researches, interviewing art experts, taking meticulous notes, and even speaking directly with artists and experts to truly understand the authenticity, techniques, culture, and history behind each piece. Thank you for your patience with my academic writing style!

Hello everyone,

Today, I want to share my 34th featured collection here on Reddit. If you caught my last post about my 33rd collection, you already know how my wife and I fell completely in love with the sheer beauty and master craftsmanship of Japanese cloisonné.My journey into Japanese cloisonné actually began 34 years ago with a single vase.

However, my specific obsession with teapots and Totai Shippo (cloisonné on ceramic/porcelain) began 28 years ago due to a total stroke of luck. My car overheated and broke down during my morning commute. While waiting for repairs, I wandered into a nearby antique store to pass the time and ended up buying my very first Totai teapot.

That single breakdown sparked a lifelong passion for both of us. Over the last 34 years, we have gathered more than 40 pieces of Japanese cloisonné, but this specific family of 16 teapots took us over 28 years to piece together.

Fun collector challenge: One of these teapots is currently missing its lid! As a collector, I still love it just as much, and I hope to find its matching pair one day. Can you spot the lidless one in the first photo?

To me, this group represents a complete masterclass in Meiji-period experimentation with materials, shapes, light, and shadow. I categorize its historical and artistic value into five deep dimensions:

1. The Perfect Trifecta of Base Materials

It is incredibly rare to assemble a collection that simultaneously showcases the three most iconic base techniques of the Meiji era:

Copper Base (The Classic): Features incredibly precise wire cloisonné (Yusen-shippo), demonstrating strict line work and geometric perfection.

Ceramic Base (The Rarest): This includes the light-blue tea set. Firing enamel onto a ceramic body (Totai Shippo) has an incredibly high failure rate in the kiln. Very few pieces survive today, giving them a soft, porcelain-like artistic quality.

Foil-Backed Base (Gin-bari): The pinnacle of light and shadow. Embossed silver or tin foil is laid under the translucent enamel glaze. It catches the light beautifully, making the colors glow like brilliant rubies and sapphires.

2. Extreme Material Fusion

These teapots do not just use one method; they push the limits of complex material mixing. On several pieces, you can see hair-thin copper wiring layered right alongside shimmering under-glaze silver foil, and even accents of Goldstone (Aventurine glass with sparkling copper crystals). Fusing these precious materials on such a small scale required world-class technical skill.

3. Cross-Cultural Shapes & Narratives

These 16 pieces witness a historic cultural dialogue between East and West. The shapes range from traditional Eastern three-legged round pots to Western-style coffee ewers and complete English afternoon tea sets. They document how Meiji artisans used cloisonné to transform traditional Eastern motifs (butterflies, phoenixes, flowers) into luxury goods tailored specifically for Western aristocratic living rooms.

4. From Miniature Curios to Regular Scale

Another element that makes this 28-year curation journey so fulfilling is the incredible variety in scale and silhouette. The collection spans from palm-sized miniatures (ranging from 2.5 to 3.5 inches) up to standard regular sizes.

In Victorian Europe and America, these intricate miniatures were highly sought after as "cabinet pieces"—treasures meant purely for aristocratic display cabinets rather than daily functional use. Looking across the 16 pieces, you can see a distinct anatomical evolution:

Traditional Tripods: Several round-bodied pieces sit elegantly on three delicate metal feet, adapted directly from ancient Japanese koro (incense burner) architecture.

Lobed and Wavy Rims: One of the crown jewels of the set completely abandons the standard round neck, featuring a custom-contoured, undulating wavy rim that requires master-level metalsmithing.

Tall Ewers vs. Squat Pots: The shapes transition fluidly from low, globe-like traditional teapots to tall, narrow, square-profile coffee pitchers designed to cater specifically to Western tastes.

5. The Value of a Systematic Collection

As a complete set, these pieces form an evolutionary map of cloisonné technology. They cover everything from deep, solid black background work to luminous, translucent foil pieces, and from individual showpieces to functional sets. This kind of systematic collecting holds much higher research value and market premium than scattered, individual items.

An Accessible Passion for Everyday Collectors

The best part about collecting Japanese export cloisonné teapots is that it is a hobby regular, everyday people can enjoy. The market prices for these standard-shaped, unsigned Meiji-era teapots have remained relatively stable over the years. With a bit of patience, most of the standard round-bodied or gin-bari pieces shown here can still be tracked down at antique shops or auctions for anywhere between $50 to $300.

The only major exceptions in this group are the highly rare Totai (ceramic-based) teapots and the tall, square-profile coffee ewers, which naturally command a premium due to their scarcity.

A Crucial Tip on Spotting Fakes: Japanese vs. Chinese Antiques

In the early days of my collecting journey, I focused heavily on Chinese porcelain. I learned some incredibly tough, valuable lessons about just how flooded that market is with convincing replicas and masterful modern fakes. That experience is exactly why I eventually shifted my passion toward fields like Japanese cloisonné, belt buckles, hooks, ..., inner painted bottles, tibetan brass cups, tsatsa.

For everyday collectors, Japanese cloisonné offers a massive advantage: genuine antiques are remarkably easy to distinguish from modern reproductions. While the Chinese market relies on stylistic consistency that makes faking easier, Japanese cloisonné underwent a very distinct technical evolution. The specific glaze textures, the characteristic mirror-like polish of the Meiji period, the deliberate use of negative space, and the natural oxidation of Japanese base metals make authentic antiques stand out clearly to an observant eye. It provides a much safer harbor for collectors who want to buy with confidence.

SummaryTo summarize: These 16 teapots are built with "copper as the bones, ceramic as the soul, and silver foil as the light." The shifting colors glistening in the light reflect the relentless pursuit of perfection by Meiji craftsmen over a century ago.

I have attached a detailed close-up photo of each individual teapot for your reference. I would love to hear your thoughts and see your teapots, or connect with anyone who might help me track down a matching lid in the future!

Coming up next: For my 35th topic, I will be moving from teapots to showcase another major branch of my study: Japanese Cloisonné Boxes & Covered Jars. Stay tuned!

TL;DR: A pair of blue-and-white wave cups with a non standard imperial Yongzheng mark just sold at a European auction for €300,000 against a €4,000 estimate. The internet community is deeply divided. Did a buyer find a multi-million-euro Imperial "Tribute" loophole, or did they buy a heavily romanticized narrative?

To outsiders, the market for Chinese imperial porcelain appears to be a strict science of aesthetics, chemistry, and reign marks. To seasoned collectors, however, it is an ocean where the "water is unimaginably deep" (水很深).

A recent high-stakes bidding war over a pair of wave-and-bat cups at a European auction perfectly illustrates this reality. Originally estimated at a modest €4,000, the lot exploded to a staggering €300,000 hammer price.

This extreme price variance forces us into an open, highly debatable territory of connoisseurship: Did the buyers unearth a misunderstood 18th-century transitional treasure, or did they pay a record-breaking premium for a brilliant narrative?

The Case Against Authenticity:

The Imperial Standard

The design of the cups features an iconic imperial motif: underglaze blue sea waves and crashing rocks paired with overglaze iron-red bats (Shou Shan Fu Hai - 寿山福海).

When evaluating these cups against an authenticated benchmark—such as Lot 3003 from the Beijing Hanhai 2016 Autumn Auction (a certified Yongzheng Mark and Period bowl that sold for RMB 1,368,000)—reproducible stylistic discrepancies immediately emerge:

The Calligraphic Hand:

The six-character mark on the Beijing Hanhai bowl flows with the fluid stability of a designated court calligrapher. On the €300,000 pair, characters like Nian (年) and Zheng (正) are geometrically rigid, showing the microscopic hesitations of a copyist tracing a template.The Physics of Cobalt: The authentic benchmark features smoothly layered, translucent, cloud-like cobalt washes. The disputed cups show aggressive "pooling" where dark cobalt forms heavy, unnatural blotches.

The Asymmetric Rings:

The double rings framing the mark on the disputed pair narrow on one side and widen on the other, indicating a wheel wobble that would normally cause an official imperial supervisor to reject and smash the piece instantly.

Because modern laboratory tests like XRF (X-Ray Fluorescence) and Thermoluminescence (TL) are fundamentally incapable of drawing a precise timeline for ceramics under 500 years old due to overlapping margins of error, the scientific baseline remains completely silent. The final verdict rests entirely on human argumentation.

The Case For Authenticity:

The Tang Ying and "Tribute" Variables

How do the buyers justify a €300,000 bid against these apparent flaws? They bypass the rigid "Palace Style" parameters entirely and lean into the highly nuanced history of Tribute Porcelain (Gong Ci - 贡瓷).

The Early Tang Ying Management Period (Post-1728): Tang Ying was sent to Jingdezhen in 1728 by the Yongzheng Emperor. During his earliest years as an assistant manager, the imperial kilns underwent radical administrative shifts. Proponents of the cups argue that early-reign Yongzheng wares regularly exhibited erratic calligraphy and variable cobalt quality as kiln masters attempted to replicate archaic Ming dynasty "heaping and piling" effects.

High-Official Presentation Wares:

The buyers' primary hypothesis is that these cups were not regular bureaucratic orders. Instead, they argue the pair represents a private commission by high-ranking regional leaders or wealthy salt merchants meant as an imperial gift. Because these presentation pieces were executed outside the direct oversight of the palace's strict calligraphic checkers, subtle formatting errors were tolerated.

Food for Thought:

The Limits of Expertise, "Minyao," and the Image Trap

This brings us to a critical, systemic issue in the antique porcelain world that every collector must ponder: What happens when a piece steps outside the textbook definitions, and how do we actually judge it?

1. The "Minyao" Paradox

While official imperial kilns (Guanyao 官窑) followed strict, documented blueprints, China was home to thousands of regional, provincial, and private kilns known as Folk or Private Kilns (Minyao 民窑). Relying strictly on "expert experience" to judge a true Minyao piece is incredibly difficult—if not downright impossible—unless it is a highly common, "open door" (一眼真) object of daily use by regular citizens. For high-end, customized luxury wares produced by these thousands of private kilns, there are simply no standard textbooks or referenced museum pieces to look at. An expert, no matter how seasoned, may be looking at a unique commission they have quite literally never seen before in their lifetime.

2. The Digital Deception

Compounding this difficulty is our modern reliance on digital auction catalogs. In this field, it is a fatal mistake to rely solely on high-resolution images to pass judgment on complex items. Unless an object is a textbook, glaringly obvious "open door" piece, a photograph cannot capture the true essence of porcelain. Digital lenses heavily distort the subtle color gradients of underglaze blue, alter the perceived depth of a glaze, and flatten the tactile weight and three-dimensional texture of the porcelain paste.

True connoisseurship requires a literal "hands-on" (上手 - shangshou) examination. A piece that looks flat or clumsy on a computer screen might reveal spectacular, silky, jade-like "mutton-fat" maturity and historical presence when rotated in the palm of an expert's hand.When an object is under 500 years old, science remains silent, images deceive, and historical templates for private kilns do not exist. This is exactly why some items require a collaborative panel of multiple experts debating back and forth to reach a subjective, democratic final determination.

Conclusion

The debate over these cups encapsulates why the Chinese porcelain market is so uniquely high-stakes. One camp sees a highly skilled early-20th-century Republic artisan fabricating a copy from an imperial blueprint. The other camp sees a rare, non-standardized milestone of 18th-century tribute history.

I trust both camps have people who flew out and examined the piece in person. Especially the buyers, who almost certainly sent their representative experts to check them out. Otherwise, they would not have chased the price all the way to a staggering €300,000.

So, I leave it to the community to think: When two world-class experts hold the exact same piece of porcelain in their hands, under the exact same magnifying loupe, and come away with two completely different histories—how deep is the water really? Is a €300,000 hammer price the cost of owning an elite, unrecognized masterpiece, or is it the ultimate price for buying a beautiful, unprovable theory?

What do you guys think? Would you have backed the conservative expert view, or would you have gambled on the buyers' "tribute ware" panel?

Hi there! Found this tureen at an estate sale. I’ve reverse image searched, used AI- I can’t find anything really concrete. Approx 12” handle to handle. Hand painted. No makers mark. Underside has rough ridge from kiln on the porcelain. She’s thick. Any idea on the provenance or if it’s French versus Chinese export?

Anybody know anything about them? Can’t find anything with Google image search

Can anyone tell me about this bowl? It is 11.75 wide. My mom bought it at a garage sale over 40 years ago. Any insights appreciated!

I found this piece in a flea market and wondering if anyone know anything about it and it's a maker

Bw

The two lines scratched through means it’s not top quality? What do the letters/initials in the corner mean?

When my great grandma passed years ago i inherited this cute porcelain bird. Does anyone know what it is? Brand or when it was made? Tried doing research on the internet but nothing came up.

Link 👇

https://ebay.io/m/RCNZTq

Saw these in a touristy vintage shĺ in istanbul but they were overpriced (the same shop was selling some czech porcelain that I can get at a fraction of the cost they were asking, so I assumed these would have been way overvalued too).

I can see 'made in romania' at the bottom alongside what I assume is a logo or manufacturer's mark in the center. Does anyone know who the manufacturer might be so that I can scour the internet for these cups?

Hi everyone,

My grandmother recently passed away and we are in the process of handling her estate and arranging for funeral expenses. I came across these commemorative plates, and I’m trying to determine what they are and whether they have any resale or collectible value before we donate them.

They all seem to be from around the 80s. They all have their original packaging and certificates.

Thank you for your time and help!

posted this before but I think the back didn't upload.

Got 4 of these from a good friend that was thrifting. I think they are fabulous,are they also old?

Thanks!

edit: I looked up the harker company... they weee around until 1974. is it prestigious? when would you think these were made?