r/TheCaptivesWar

Isn't it a fairly gigantic plot point that none of the Great Enemy has ever been captured by the Carryx?

I know that for awhile, all signs were pointing to the Great Enemy/Deathless Enemy being the primary human civilization. I think after the second book, it's at least possible that humans are only part of this enemy, or perhaps being used by the enemy as pawns against the Carryx, or something like that? But at the very least, we know that humans are part of the Enemy.

And it's a major, big, hush-hush secret, right? Main character research group can't let the Carryx know that they're from the same origin as The Enemy, right? I know that Dafyd and the Swarm have talked about how humans can't be the whole of the enemy, or at least they can't be the whole enemy throughout all of history, but they're certainly a major part of it, if they've just happened to be about in proximity to several places Main Character Research Group has stumbled into.

Maybe the Carryx are just lying about the "never caught one" thing, I guess? But they seemed extremely happy to capture anything they ever do capture. (I suppose I am assuming that the Livesuit they showed captured in book 1 had no human in it. During that book, I figured it was entirely artificial/grown, and after Livesuits, I'm assuming it was entirely . . . uh . . . mature? Whatever term you'd use for that.) But that still leaves a large number of standard humans we see in the novella "Livesuits" literally being led around in chains.

You'd think, "We found this group of human animals on this planet, and they're the same as other groups of human animals we've collected dozens of times before from planets defended by the Great Enemy" would have been something that would have come up, at least during Carryx POV segments. I suppose that sort of information hiding is not uncommon in fiction, so I can't be upset about it or anything. But still feels odd. So what's with all the humans being captured throughout the events of Livesuits? I must be just blindly missing something.

Edited to make clear "Humans in Livesuits" was meant as "humans in the book Livesuits," not "humans inside the Livesuit armor."

anyone knows any dates for the tv show?

I've been looking for the show or any info about when the tv show is going to air or is expected to?

I've searched all over and can't find anything, any info is greatly appreciated. Thank you so much in advance.

The ending of Faith of Beasts lays the groundwork for a bioweapon against the Carryx, but not in the traditional sense: It could involve the Swarm taking over a Carryx to rebuilt itself into a Sovran. Or a 'fake' Sovran whilst the real one is incapacitated, which would send out the right subjugation signals and pheromones. In either case, the lack of agency of the Carryx would be exploited.

It would be funny to see the Carryx becoming slaves to their own nature, perhaps even being completely 'remote controlled' whilst being fully aware of the nature of the deception.

Having justice served like that would be a crowd pleaser for sure, but I doubt it will be that simple:

Red herring theory, actual ending: Knowing the writers, I'd assume the signs pointing towards this conclusions are likely a red herring and the bioweapon plan will likely fail (or be a success, but reveal that things are far more complicated than simply conquering the Carryx).

My money is on a completely different ending that will subvert expectations instead. I'd assume it's Swarm related. It just seems like the narrative potential of the Carryx is limited, we'd get a very simple ending to a complex universe, almost fairytale like, which wouldn't be an adequate fit. But there's still great potential to explore the Swarm and elevate its importance to the story, perhaps making it a late-stage antagonist.

Speaking against this would be that all of this would have to fit into one last book, as the writers confirmed three novels. That major shift could make the ending feel rushed.

Do you agree with this, or have deeper thoughts on how it will end?

I'm listening to the audio book for The Faith of Beasts right now. I swear I heard Uuya Tomos or Llian Andermus say "Frak" just after >!Tonner dies!<. Did anyone else catch that? I wish I had the book right about now. I wouldn't be surprised if the authors were Battlestar Galactica fans.

In FoB, when he's done being chased by the deathless, he throws away what he's collected and it gets destroyed. Why does he suddenly choose to get rid of something so valuable?

It could be nothing, but in every book the authors seem to go out of their way to mention a man with red hair. His most notable appearance is in FoB where he furtively grabs food and Rickar thinks to himself that he doesnt want to know whats going on there, and then reappears just as Rickar is entering the fish-thing escape pod.

Now, there's no confirmation that this is a single person, but I'm just struck by this inclusion, especially as the authors dont usually make a point of describing a characters hair.

If it *is* significant, I think it can only be another swarm like thing monitoring the characters for whatever reason. I'll be intrigued to see if anything comes of it.

#All spoilers

I was wondering if the events of livesuit intersect with the people over at Anjin. Mostly because I **think** the livesuit soldiers have been lied to in regard to the time dilation that occurs. I base this off of a few things:

1. Interstellar travel in this universe is relatively fast. The Anjin crew took a few short months to go from Anjin to the world palace and then even shorter to go to the new world where they met the solder Corval.

2. JSAC tend to stick to real world physics unless they’re introducing something fantastic (like asymmetrical space). Based off of this, time dilation is not heavily dramatic and doesn’t fast forward you hundreds of years in short gaps.

With that said, I was wondering if the swarm is new technology for the deathless? The swarm on Anjin is highly developed. If so, absolutely nothing prevents it from successfully infiltrating a livesuit soldier and rebuilding it from scratch. Assimilating a livesuit would make swarm entity that much more durable. I think JSAC closed the ability to assimilate a carryx with that throw away phrase “the plague that infected us and the changes we made to our bodies to prevent it in the future”.

Another theory my mind is kicking around is the swarm is an actual intelligent life that was not made but evolved a while back. And it is indeed a sub race of the original deathless. Maybe they inherit memories like the jelly fish from expanse that made the gates. And this one was purposely cut off and given instructions to simply infiltrate the carryx and/self destruct afterwards.

"Muh lab group," "muh upjumped assistant," weirdo revenge baby with Else's DNA as a cope, yammering on about the Soft Lotharks' secret right in front of them and paying the price. Dude was arrogant, whiney, and never fully understood or accepted his situation. Not saying he's a badly written character. We all know 10 guys like him. He still sucked though.

Edit: left an s off "assistant"

I'm just after a re-listening of the entire series so far, and something bugged me with the Livesuit-Faith of Beasts connection: Why Corval, and not Kirin?

Kirin is the main protagonist from Livesuit. We get to hear his story and motivations, and figure out the tragic reality of the livesuits from his perspective.

Corval, while important, is a side character, and when I got to the part where he appears in TFOB I didn't even register his name as someone significant. It completely passed over my head until I've read about him here in reddit. Why does he appear in the second book and not Kirin?

Corval part of the story in TFOB could have been easily transferred to Kirin, with much deeper impact. Regardless if Kirins brain is there or not we would get a conclusion for his story, knowing that he got to save few more lives to the very end just like he wanted.

Unless Kirins' story is not over, and he's going to appear in the next book to kick some Carryxs' ass - ill be a bit disappointed.

I’ve been mulling over this theory and will see how well I can explain and flesh it out:

It’s The Captives War, and so far we’ve only really heard from the captives, and not the captors. Im sure many of us have theorized that the humans are as much captive to the Live Suits as all the species (human et al) are captive to the Carryx; but what if the Live Suits aren’t at war with the Carryx but rather a parallel to them: an AI like machine? What if the Half Minds have captivated the Carryx? As the instrument of communication - across light years and species, and back - they could easily have captivated the Carryx as much as the Carryx seemingly captivate other species. So ultimately it’s this galactic level battle between two god-like AIs?

It’s either that or hacking the half-minds will be how Dafyd and the Live Suit(s) take down the Carryx.

I do a full on run of the expanse audiobooks every couple of years. They’re one of my recurring go to’s.

I will say - while I love the world they created, I do get less interested after book 3. But they’re still good

These first two books of the Captives War feel like they’re written by a different author(s) though!

And I love it

I want to say it feels tighter (well they are shorter) - but that’s not it. I am fascinated / horrified by the carryx.

I love how indifferent they are to humans

I went in blind and when the invasion started in book 1 I had to stop what I was doing and lock in because I couldn’t believe what was happening.

That is all.

What is, is.

Ps when is the next book coming out!?

Towards the end of TFoB, we see a transition of power from one Sovran to another. The spy tells us that there are private creches on hundreds of planets.

>When the Epikainot destroyed the first world and the voice of the Sovran went silent, the creche on this world opened, and the Sovran emerged. The librarians here became the librarians that had been. The empire shifted its attention a few degrees, and all carried on as it had.

What exactly is the 'voice' of the Sovran? I guess it's the system by which the Sovran issues her commands, which get passed librarian to librarian (via reports in the archival system?).

When Epikainot was destroyed, this 'voice' went silent, which triggered a daughter to transform into the new Sovran.

If there are private caches all over the empire, how did this result in only a single new Sovran? Is it a race where as soon as one daughter transforms, her voice reaches every other private creche and prevents other daughters from transforming?

It sounds like the process was fast and seamless: Sovren on old world goes silent, Sovren on this world emerges.

Towards the end of the book, Dafyd wonders what would happen if there was a second Sovren. But why stop at two?

If the lack of a signal ("the voice of the Sovran went silent") causes daughters to transform, and this happens quickly, could a temporary disruption to the Carryx comms network cause every single private creche to cough up a new Sovren?

I’m very new to audiobooks/books in general so I only have Dune and the Expanse series as comparison, but I’m shocked after finishing livesuit.

Not even how it adds to captives war, but the way they told and set up the story in general. I just keep thinking of all the little nuances.

For example, Mina turning against the military later on in her life. The scientist discovering something horrible the government is doing. When I first heard it, I was like hmmm interesting additions to the story but not sure of their relevance at all. Especially knowing from mercy of gods how brutal the Carryx actually are. I easily shared idea that “this war has to be fought obviously??” The same way Kirin was thinking.

Then jeez to just leave it at the very end where he picks up Piotr, I’m still sitting there thinking “why didn’t Piotr seem to respond to being lifted up??” And then yup, the absolute horror to find out the scan is showing basically all black.

Now I’m left with so many thoughts and revisiting parts of the story. Who else isn’t even alive anymore? Who else already knows this while still being alive? Just honestly wtffff???

Im sure my exact thought pattern is exactly what the authors were going for, but since I’m new to books/story telling this was my first time being so shocked. Even compared to all the expanse novels and novellas, this truly just blew my fucking mind lol

Abomination!

My theory about the Lothark (Soft vs Deep)

I think the Lothark are a symbiote species. The Soft Lothark are our murder teddy bears we know and love. The Deep Lothark is a distributed fungal consciousness. Not quite cordyceps, more symbiotic than parasitic.

We don't really see an inteligence from the Soft Lothark beyond what a well trained animal can display...however, when the Deep Lothark takes over - they are capable of complex written language (which seemingly the individual Soft Lothark do not recall). Dafyd is able to engage in one long conversation with the Deep Lothark through many Soft Lothark.

So the Lothark are not 1 species, but 2.

...that something's up with the Sinen. Throughout this book we get some more details on many of the other species subjugated by the Carryx like the Lothark and their secret communication/collective memory, how the Rak Hund behave a lot like dogs, and what roles/jobs/functions other species provide the empire. But the Sinen are still kind of mysterious in a way I find suspicious. We usually see them acting as messengers or a kind of middle-manager of certain groups and seem to have a small degree of authority over other moieties, but why? What makes them specially suited to such a role? I think there's got to be more going on with them.

One idea that crossed my mind, and I'll preface this by admitting I doubt it really holds up, is that the Sinen might actually be the secret masters of the Carryx. I had this thought when I realized the excerpts of "Myths of Origin" were alluding to someone (either Dafyd or the swarm) having to use the "song" of the Carryx to control them, and right away it occurred to me, what if there's already someone doing that? I think it would be the Sinen.

In Dafyd's conversations with the Deep Lothark we learn that the Carryx weren't always a unified body acting under the will of a single Sovran, but used to constantly war amongst themselves. Sure, maybe it was just a natural 'leap' for a single Sovran to rise up and unify them, or maybe something else came in and made sure of it.

The Deep Lothark mentions that "Only a few moieties are older than the Lothark." Unfortunately the only one of these it names is the Dirhaj which no longer exist. So there's no evidence, but there is the possibility the Sinen could be one of those older moieties. Based on the way the Sinen appear to be one of the most trusted moieties of the Carryx, I'd bet money they are older than the Lothark.

So if the Sinen are really in control, then why even pretend to be a subject of the Carryx? Well I have a couple thoughts on that too:

First, it's easier to protect that control if you're hidden and not make yourself a target. Also, by hiding in pain sight as just another enslaved moiety you are protected from culpability in case things do fall apart, the Carryx take all the blame.

Second, I think some of the parts about the streams of data and reports funneling up to the Sovran, and then propagating back out as orders, have been laying hints about manipulating the Carryx through the filtering of information from the bottom up. Maybe the will of the Sovran can be influenced by the selective passage of data she receives. So the Sinen place themselves in the roles of messengers and middle-managers to manipulate that flow of information. Maybe the "song" isn't just the pheromones and vocalizations of the Carryx, but their information network too.

That's what I came up with so far, and like I said I don't take my theory seriously at all, it was just something fun to think about. I'm prepared for it to all get ripped to shreds, I bet there's some small details I'm forgetting from the first book that completely disproves it. I'm just sure there has to be more going on with the Sinen than we know yet, and I'd love to hear what others think.

The Swarm has no history before its first "victim". Is it possible that the Swarm later known as "The Spy" the being with no past, even by it's own admission it has no memory before Ameer (whom we know very little about), that this being might be "The Great Bird"?

I have avoided this sub before finishing the book,
so forgive me if I am the last person to notice...

But it seems clear to me that the authors are telling a fictionalized and mythologized retailing of the origins of the Jewish faith. Obviously, the first book had the same patterns of captivity and deportation, but after reading that book, I just saw it as a motif. But once the second book introduced the idea of that deported and captive people writing and collecting their own mythology as a form of resistance, the parallels just became too strong to ignore.

The Jewish faith and scriptures have their origin in the sack of Jerusalem, and captivity of all the leaders and intellectuals of Jerusalem's civilization (around 4,000 people- the same as deported from Ajin) to Babylon, a multicultural empire filled with the intelligencia and leaders of other conquered peoples. In that captivity, the Jewish deportees form an identity around the stories of their lost civilization, purportedly
becoming some of the most effective agents of their captors, while also establishing their unique identity and codifying the books and stories of their religion and identity.

This religous movement would eventually become
Judaism and Christianity, a destabilizing movement for empires of all kinds.

This is like Orson Scott Card's Homecoming series, but retelling the Jewish scriptures in sci-fi instead of the Mormon scriptures.