r/starwarscanon

To me, a big part of canon (post-2014) means acknowledgement and respect. Changing details between mediums is fine, but the original vision should at least be acknowledged, because otherwise, it makes one storyteller come off as snobbish, lazy, and flippant towards the other.

Original video link: https://youtube.com/shorts/82EWPyy0KYA?is=S9Qo4KuPdaCqxVQO

Many people are using this video to claim that Lucas constantly contradicts himself and that we cannot take his word as absolute truth when trying to understand the saga. Apparently, this video debunks the idea that "balance" means the Light alone, arguing instead that it consists of a balance between Light and Darkness, like Yin and Yang.

Those who say this fail to grasp the video's subtext, focusing only on the opening remarks. Yes, Lucas initially mentions two sides of the Force that must exist in "apparent" balance, describing the Light as "selfless" and the Dark as "selfish." However, he never suggests that dwelling solely on the Light Side is a negative thing. He states that darkness is inherent in all of us and that true "balance" lies in the ability to overcome the temptation of the Dark Side. We cannot eliminate evil from the universe, but we must not give in to our own selfish desires, the easy path, the path of evil.

The Light Side and the Dark Side are natural forces of the universe, but the Sith are a cancer; they corrupt the Force to fulfill their own personal ambitions for power and domination, whereas the Jedi seek the common good and strive to serve others. That is why, when Anakin kills Palpatine at the end of Return of the Jedi, he restores the balance the Sith had destroyed in their quest to conquer the galaxy, returning the Force to its natural state. If Lucas describes the Sith as a "cancer," it is obvious they are not necessary. You don't need half your body's cells to be healthy while the other half are cancerous; you need a healthy body.

With this in mind, I have no issue with the existence of new Dark Side users following Palpatine's death, because Lucas himself acknowledges that evil cannot be eradicated forever. Disney's mistake was reusing Palpatine to appease fans instead of having Kylo Ren serve as the final antagonist, as the story demanded.

Every time I say that Palpatine’s return in The Rise of Skywalker ruins Anakin’s arc in Return of the Jedi, where he saves his son and eliminates the Emperor, fans insist that the Jedi were wrong. They claim that the true "balance of the Force" is a literal balance between light and darkness, and that Anakin brought balance by leaving the exact same number of Jedi and Sith alive at the end of Episode III. They defend this stance by hiding behind Yoda’s line: "A prophecy that misread could have been."

Alright, let’s break this down piece by piece.

George Lucas has stated across various media, such as the Prequel DVD documentaries, The Clone Wars audio commentaries, and The Star Wars Archives book, that the true essence of the Force is the Light, that the dark side is a cancer, and that Anakin restores balance to the universe by exterminating Palpatine at the end of Episode VI. Therefore, you cannot rely on the personal assumptions of other characters when the original creator of the saga confirms that "balance" means the absence of evil.

Having cleared up the most important part, what did Yoda actually mean by "A prophecy that misread could have been"?

Simple: everyone assumed Anakin would bring balance, but nobody knew exactly how.

In the final arc of The Clone Wars Season 6 (Episodes 11, 12, and 13), Master Yoda goes on a spiritual journey guided by Qui-Gon Jinn and the Force Priestesses. During his journey, Yoda must pass several spiritual trials to learn how to retain his consciousness after death and become a Force ghost, and what he discovers is crucial. He faces his own arrogance in the form of a "Dark Yoda," realizing that the Jedi were neither perfect nor free of flaws. In his final trial, he is given the chance to learn the true identity of the Sith Lord controlling the Senate and manipulating the Clone Wars (Chancellor Palpatine) before the tragic events of Episode III unfold. However, instead of giving in to the temptation of exposing Darth Sidious to save the Jedi Order from its imminent fall, Yoda chooses to forfeit that information. By doing so, he grasps the true meaning of the Prophecy; he understands that Anakin Skywalker truly is the Chosen One and that his destiny is to bring balance, which is why he chooses to save Anakin's life in his vision instead of letting him die. The Priestesses make it clear to Yoda that the Jedi Order will fall and that they will not win the current war. However, through their faith in the Chosen One, they will plant the seed for a greater victory: "Not victory in the Clone Wars, but victory for all time."

J.J. Abrams threw all this lore into the trash with The Rise of Skywalker. If Palpatine survived (or returned in a clone body), Anakin’s ultimate sacrifice in Episode VI to save Luke and destroy the Sith loses all its value. Yoda’s entire painful acceptance in The Clone Wars, where he lets the Order fall while trusting in a "victory for all time" through Anakin, becomes utterly pointless if the Sith threat was merely paused for a few decades. The Emperor's return is a cheap, improvised excuse by Disney solely to boost the box office, completely ignoring the fundamental rules of Lucas's own mythology.

So please, stop spamming that Yoda scene from Episode III out of context. Thank you very much.

It's overall not controversial to say that Revenge of The Sith is the best of the prequels, and it probably is for a good reason. It is the most snappy, well-paced, thematically compelling, and tightly plotted of the three. One thing that stuck with me this time, is that Anakin's fall is better done than what I remembered. Palpatine is really good at isolating him, reading him like an open book, and using every move by the Jedi to prey on Anakin's flaws and turn him against his friends and allies. I noticed that Palpatine tries to make his evil choices morally palatable by saying that if the Jedi survived there would be endless civil war, all while implying that Anakin needs to kill them in order to immerse himself in the dark side to find the power to save Padmé, because what it's ultimately about. Anakin essentially gaslights himself into believing Palpatine in order to justify his selfish choices, although he remains conflicted and hates what he's doing, because a part of him knows he's messing up.

I generally like that Lucas doesn't hold back in making Anakin both sympathetic and a massive ass who is responsible for his own fall. I really don't like it when people infantilize Anakin into a hapless victim, when it's ultimately his arrogance, deeply seated greed, and inability to properly grow and address his demons and flaws that leads him down the dark path. I will also say that Battle of The Heroes is arguably the greatest lightsaber duel because it combines the emotional and thematic weight of the duels in the Original Trilogy with the visual spectacle of the Prequel Trilogy duels.

However, when it comes to writing issues, I'd say the goal behind the kidnapping of Palps from Dooku's perspective is very unclear if you haven't read the novelization. Also, I would've liked seeing Obi-Wan attempt to bring Anakin back more, since RotJ sees Vader telling Luke "Obi-Wan once thought as you do". Obi-Wan does attempt to reason with Anakin before and during the duel, but it comes across as a bit half-hearted. Also, if I'm being honest, a lot of the dialogue is bad. I actually felt like TPM had the most natural dialogue writing of the three prequels, maybe because George took more time writing it.

Acting wise, Ewan was great and Ian hamming it up was a lot of fun. Christopher Lee was also great as always in his scene, and I liked Jimmy Smits as Bail Organa.

Final verdict: 7.5/10. A decent to good film, but a flawed and highly imperfect one. Next Up: Solo - A Star Wars Story.

1-2: Masterpiece
3-8: Pretty good
9-12: Okay
13: Pretty bad

Obviously, you have both legends and clone wars telling their versions of the characters backstory.  Obviously most people know about the legends version, but for the clone wars version basically it’s mostly in the episode  “Lair of Grievous.” it’s mostly shown with the statues of him evolving into the droid monster, and then his dialogue later in the episode basically the episode is saying Grievous volunteers to be rebuilt and have portions of his body replaced with cybernetics. 

Now I know a lot of people really hate of this version given the fact that EU version Grievous was basically the Separatist Darth Vader (had great sense of justice, peace and freedom, suffered from a fatal accident who disfigured him and lost the love of his life). but I figured well that ship is sailed. I think it would be better to use the Clone Wars version instead of completely disregarding it. While at the same time not also completely disregarding the detailed EU version kinda like how Mandalorian season 2 handled Boba fett question like technically while Boba and Jango maybe not mandalorians (according to George Lucas’s himself.) and are mercenaries but at the same time Jango Fett was a mandalorian foundling so technically he is a mandalorian while at the same probably not that is kinda a loophole that works in-universe.

Now the easy way is well Mind alterations since one could argue maybe  the Separatists altered Grievous's brain during surgery to lock away his despair and enhance his rage. While that is still true the idea of having his  memory of "volunteering" was more explicitly programmed or conditioned into his mind to keep him loyal is sort of  pointless and dumb.  Relying on "brainwashing" or "memory alteration" is a weak narrative device because it strips away his agency, making him look less like a character and more like a broken machine. If a canon story  just says, "Oh, his brain was programmed to think he volunteered," it can feel cheap and unsatisfying.

The Mandalorian / Boba Fett loophole works so beautifully because nobody's mind was erased. Jango Fett just operated under a different definition of what it meant to be a Mandalorian than what the mainstream pacifist government recognized. 

it like saying Vader was mind altered during his reconstruction with the suit when that not the case because sure he was force but still. Ultimately  Turning Grievous into a brainwashed drone completely ruins the parallel to Darth Vader.

Vader's tragedy only works because he chose to kneel to Palpatine. No one wiped his memory; he lives every single day with the agonizing knowledge of what he did to Padmé, his friends, and his own body. He trapped himself in that black suit through his own choices and anger.  Like Vader, Grievous is trapped in a metal prison of his own making. He can never go back to his old life. He can never be the organic warlord he used to be. Hell  Vader even  says, *"Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him,"*he is lying to himself to cope with his immense guilt.

So if I was a writer for book or comic or even a showrunner making a show about Grievous origins in the style of Shadow Lord in terms of tone maybe elements of Arcane  here I would handled in the same way that 

Ed Brubaker did with Books of Doom which by far is the gold standard for how to handle a messy, contradictory backstory and turn it into a masterpiece. Before that comic, Doctor Doom’s origin was scattered between Stan Lee’s classic Silver Age ideas, random retcons, and different writers changing his motivations. Brubaker didn't erase anything. Instead, he put Doom in a room and had him recount his own life story, weaving all the pieces together into a grounded, terrifying, and deeply human tragedy.

Now there is no need of an introduction to the EU version because I’m sure everyone already knows I want to look at George Lucas take on the origins (which the clone wars version draws upon which makes sense given he oversaw the show.) the man himself  notoriously didn't give much of a shit for the Expanded Universe, so when it came time to develop the Clone Wars animated series he just went ahead with his original vision for the character and ignored Grievous' old backstory. But still it worth bringing up anyway since it was used in the series.

First when  Lucas sat down to write Revenge of the Sith, his goal for Grievous was strictly cinematic. He needed a villain who visually and thematically foreshadowed what was about to happen to Anakin Skywalker. 

Lucas famously walked into the design department and just told them to make a villain who looked "iconic" and "scary." Basically  conceived Grievous as a ruthless, slightly cowardly alien general who hid behind droids and used technological enhancements because he couldn't use the Force. Heck he didn't even plan the tragic cough. During post-production, Lucas came into the editing bay with a bad case of bronchitis. His rough coughing fits were recorded and handed to the sound designers to use for Grievous, which Lucas loved because it emphasized that the cyborg technology was imperfect and claustrophobic.  

Something I want to point out is that 

Because  Lucas's movies only provided the bare minimum, Lucasfilm hired author James Luceno to write the prequel novel Labyrinth of Evil to flesh out the universe before Episode III hit theaters. 

Luceno asked Lucas directly for input on Grievous’s backstory. Lucas gave him almost nothing about his past as a living being. Instead, Lucas simply told Luceno to treat the general as a joint product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Geonosians." 

Here is the source

“Q: In your novels, I especially enjoyed the Xi Charrions species, the physique of General Grievous, and the banter between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. Are such descriptions and dialog your choice, or are they coordinated with Lucas, other authors, and graphic staff?

A: A bit of both. The plot and the dialogue are essentially mine, although I asked for George's input regarding Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and General Grievous. I had already been asked to create a backstory for Grievous, but when I pressed George for more, he said that I should consider the general a joint product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Geonosians. George also suggested possibilities for the attack on Coruscant. Based on the first draft of the script, I thought that most of the action was going to take place on the ground, so I had Palpatine being whisked about, as President Bush was in Air Force One on 9-11. George later clarified that most of the action would be in the sky, and that I should think in terms of what the Secret Service did with Vice President Cheney, which was to sequester him in a hardened bunker.”

- James Luceno on Labyrinth of Evil 

here is the leak to this interview

www.bookloons.com/cgi-bin/Columns.asp?name=James%20Luceno&type=Interview

Ultimately Lucas didn't care who Grievous was before the metal suit; he only cared about how he got into the suit (the Separatist corporations building him). 

Now this was years ago during the revenge of the Sith era before he made the Clone Wars animated series and the guy is also notorious for changing his mind like Dave Filoni does  but still I do think it is interesting Lucas says to Luceno that Grievous was “a joint product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Geonosians.”  So that the one single thread that survived completely intact through every single version of the lore outside on  the why Grievous got into the suit (voluntary addiction vs. a forced ship crash), they both needed a way to explain how a random alien got access to the most expensive, cutting-edge military cyborg technology in the galaxy.

The Banking Clan provided the perfect bridge. He couldn't just build that body in a cave; he needed a multi-billion-credit galactic corporation to fund his transformation.  Ultimately Even though Lucas constantly changed his mind and kept his ideas minimal, his explicit directive to James Luceno—that Grievous was a "joint product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Geonosians"—is the one golden thread that never broke.

Anyway going back the Clone Wars version  we have only the dialogue from the “Lair of Grievous” episode the concept artdrawn for the episode 'Lair of Grievous' and the statues from the finished episode itself.

We also have Dave Filoni From the Lair of Grievous featurette. Where he states this 

"George [Lucas] had a lot of ideas about where he thought Grievous came from... George had mentioned that he had really wanted to be a Jedi... his rejection of Jedi status drove him to have these modifications done to his body."

— Dave Filoni on Grievous origins  from Star Wars The Clone Wars Season One: Lair Of Grievous Featurette.

Overall  George Lucas’s unadulterated take on Grievous is deeply cynical. He envisioned a villain defined by jealousy, inadequacy, and corporate exploitation.

• Pure Jedi Envy: Grievous desperately wanted to be a Jedi but completely lacked Force sensitivity. This rejection drove a bitter psychological complex. He chose to use technology to conquer spirituality.
• Voluntary Addiction: Unlike Vader, Grievous was not forced into his suit by a tragic accident. Lucas envisioned him gradually and willingly replacing his body piece-by-piece to artificially clone Jedi speed and lethality. 
• Corporate Commodity: Lucas explicitly told author James Luceno that Grievous was a "joint product of the InterGalactic Banking Clan and the Geonosians." He was a walking billboard for Separatist tech, weaponizing an alien's insecurities.
• The Imperfect Prototype: The famous wheezing cough (voiced by Lucas himself while sick) was a deliberate choice to show that cybernetic life-support is claustrophobic and flawed. He was designed purely to foreshadow Anakin's mechanical prison.
• Ruthless Cowardice: Because he lacked the internal harmony of the Force, Grievous lacked true warrior strength. He relied on intimidation and four lightsabers, but his confidence instantly shattered into a survival instinct when outmatched.

 

Now before someone brings up the Clone Wars 2003 series I do want to point if I recall the Clone Wars writers of that show  were only given a rough outline of what Grievous looked like and did. They were told he was a cyborg general who used the lightsabers of Jedi he has killed. They went the obvious route and made him a crazed, Jedi killing, inhuman monster. Lucas meant for him to be a "mustache-twirling villain". So technically speaking Grievous wasn't nerfed in Clone Wars or Revenge of the Sith, like many people believe. It just Lucas version on the screen  Heck even In the Revenge of the Sith director’s commentary, he says:

“With General Grievous, I wanted somebody who was reminiscent again… of what Anakin is going to become, which is a half man, half robot. In this case, Grievous is sort of 20% alien and 80% robot. […] It echoes what is about to occur with Anakin as a part machine, part life-form.”

“One of the big issues behind Grievous was that… I didn't want a big  powerful villain. I wanted a cunning, you know, almost cowardly villain  who isn't super-strong or super-powerful, but at the same time, you  know, is a good fighter, but not- I didn't wanna get somebody bigger and  stronger and more powerful than the other villains that we've had,  going to the next level. I wanted him to be slightly more like the  emperor. Slightly more on the sleazy, behind-the-scenes kind of guy.  That's why I set up the fact that he always runs at the end of every  fight- he always gets away.”

— George Lucas from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

 Now do I like Lucas version of the origins no and yes no because I do like the EU origins it does provided much more parallel to Darth Vader thematically wise but I’m not lying to see I do understand Lucas take coming from in fact I do this from my research from the wiki where Jason Fry and Sam Wittwer discussed this topic perfectly.

"Grievous famously has two competing backstories. The EU depicts him as a Kaleesh warlord who was made into a patsy by the Separatists, who arranged a shuttle crash and messed with his brain, turning him into a killer. Via Dave Filoni, we know George Lucas imagined Grievous as a failed Force-sensitive who voluntarily shed his humanity (or his Kaleesh-ity) to become a sort of mechanical Jedi."

―Jason Fry

"I wanted Grievous to be a badass with a tragic backstory & injury that cause him to become a cyborg Then later I realized we already have that Vader Grievous being a weirdo who's addicted to cyborg modding like people who are addicted to plastic surgery was right and original"

— Sam Witwer twitter post from July 22, 2019 

Ultimately I feel their takes summarized my thoughts on this and why I don’t think Lucasfilm should retcon the Clone Wars version  A mind wipe or memory alteration neuters the character even worse. To maintain the tragic parallel to Darth Vader, Grievous’s mind must remain entirely intact that cements his tragedy.

Like I said even if The Clone Wars version isn't my personal preference, it is the official canon on the screen, and future writers have to respect that it exists. George Lucas put it out there, so it cannot and should not just be erased or ignored. 

Now with that we set the foundation where  can we fit his  EU backstory obviously  the whole  Grievous being a "failed Force-sensitive" who wanted to be a Jedi. clashes heavily with the EU warlord who hated the Republic. However, they can coexist through  political, military, and spiritual rejection.

My interpretation if I was a writer is that  Grievous’s "desire to be a Jedi" shouldn't mean he wanted to wear robes and preach peace. He envied their power. He saw the Jedi as elitist hypocrites who used a mystical energy source to crush his people. Because he lacked the Force, he felt inadequate with his cybernetic modifications were a direct, spiteful answer to the Force. If the universe refused to give him the Force, he would build a body that could replicate Jedi speed and out-calculate their precognition.

Basically what I’m saying here is that He still hates the Republic for starving Kalee and hates the Jedi for siding with the Yam'rii. But now, that hatred is amplified by a bitter realization: The Jedi only won because they have a cosmic cheat code. His envy is a direct result of his political trauma. He hates them because they are elite, genetic aristocrats who use a mystical energy source to dictate who wins and loses in the galaxy kinda like how Mandalorian armor was  historically designed as a direct counter to Jedi abilities, featuring arsenals and materials (like beskar) built to neutralize Force powers and lightsabers, thereby leveling the playing field against natural Jedi advantages in combat.  It just that Grievous took it to the extreme.

Also in my interpretation is that like in the EU 

The Banking Clan  still bombs his shuttle. He is pulled from the wreckage, burned, mangled, and dying as a result he is placed in a bacta tank. From there this is where things get this is where the whole "Improvements! I submit to no one! I chose them!"  line fits 

when Grievous wakes up San Hill stands over the tank  telling him his organic body is unsalvageable. Grievous has a moment of choice. He could choose to die a glorious, organic warrior's death on Kalee. Instead, driven by his consuming hatred of the Jedi and his envy of their power, so in agonizing pain, he consciously chooses to live. He demands they augment him further. He screams for them to rip out more of his remaining flesh if it means he can finally match a Jedi's speed and kill them. He traps himself in the metal suit through his own bitter choices.

Other than that most of his backstory from legends is still the same. The Dream of Qymaen and Ronderu, The Huk War brutally, The Republic’s cruelty, and The Deal with San Hill.

Overall what do you think of my thought experiment of General Grievous do you like it or hate it let me know in the comments below. Also what your takes on Grievous origins I would love to read  it.

Honestly, I feel like I enjoyed TPM a bit more this time around, especially the Tatooine sequence. Writing wise, it suffers in the character development department a bit, especially compared to ANH, but I do believe it's more tightly written than people give it credit for. The main writing problems are Qui-Gon taking Anakin to a combat zone for no reason and that we could've used more context about the legalities of the blockade and the trade federation goals. Also, the Battle of Naboo is kinda medicore because of Jar Jar antics and Anakin blowing up the ship largely by luck.

The dialogue isn't as good as in the OT, but outside of some cringe lines, it's not as bad as people say. Qui-Gon is probably the only one with a personality though, although I'll say AotC and RoTS fix that problem. The acting is very stilted sometimes, but Liam Neeson largely carries. Some delicious hints from Ian McDiarmid's performance as well. Jake Lloyd is underrated imo. Also loved Pernilla August.

Overall, a 7/10 from me. Next up: Attack of The Clones.

Overall, I'd say TPM and AotC have roughly the same quality, although they have different strengths. TPM is a bit simpler, and more charming, fun, and endearing. AoTC swings higher, but misses more. It's stronger characterization wise, particularly regarding Anakin, Obi-Wan and their complicated relationship, although Anakin is tough to evaluate. He's three dimensional and a believable product of his upbringing, while also being tragic and somewhat sympathetic. You can tell that he is good at his core, but he's also deeply flawed and poorly adjusted. While he can be grating, I think he's more well-written here than he's often given credit, and exactly the type of person who could turn into Vader. Obi-Wan serves as his foil: disciplined, dutiful, pragmatic, never lets emotions get in the way of the mission, and still overall heroic, while being flawed in his own way.

I do believe that people exaggerate the tensions between Obi-Wan and Anakin in this film. Anakin is essentially in his teenage dirtbag phase, and thinks he's hot shit. Obi-Wan can be tough, but he still gives due praise, and is largely trying to keep Anakin humble and on the straight and narrow. It can be argued that doing otherwise would be babying Anakin and further feeding his insecurity driven ego, that we see Palpatine stroke.

The relationship between Anakin and Padmé is definitely the weakest part in terms of character writing. They have some cute/sweet moments, but it's hard to believe that someone as mature, intelligent and dutiful as Padmé would fall for someone who is very much not ready or well-adjusted like Anakin. I don't think she should hate him for the Tusken massacre, but it's a massive red flag. The romance is overall kinda rushed and lacks chemistry, and some of the dialogue is infamously cringe.

I'll say that the Battle of Geonosis, while not great, is still better than the battle of Naboo, although Threepio's humor in it is an example of the tonal whiplash that GL somewhat struggled with since RotJ. Acting wise, I'd say Ewan was good and so was Sir Christopher Lee, but almost everyone else is meh at best this movie. The Tatooine segment was actually my favorite part of the movie.

As for writing issues, I'd say maybe we should've gotten more of the Jedi questioning the clone army given its shady origins and Jango's involvement. Further fleshing out the separatists and Palpatine's machinations would've been nice as well. Some of the dialogue was also cringe af, and I actually think TPM had stronger dialogue.

Final verdict: 7/10. Next up: Revenge of The Sith.

Definitely more so than in The Clone Wars. His robes are more flowing like a grim reaper's, his voice is thicker (Ian's is the best), and his eyes are more luminous.

His facial expression itself is more murderous.

What do you think?

Had an interesting thought exercise about the future of the franchise and how eventually they need to fully move on from established characters. Like for example by the time of the end of TRoS, Chewie, Lando and the droids are all that’s left besides Force Ghost Leia and Luke. Eventually Lando and Chewie will die but my question is; should R2 and 3PO “die” too? Or should they remain into the future as the sole anchor to the main saga? Since they are droids they could potentially be around for a very long time, the question is should they? I know in Legends, R2 survives long enough to meet Cade Skywalker.

What do y’all think?

Edit: I should clarify. I don’t mean for them to necessarily show up in every Star Wars project in the future, but the main franchise films (Episode 10,11,12, etc)

Does anyone else see the resemblance between Gatori and the Duloks from the 1980s Ewoks cartoon?

Two photos from the Ahsoka series and Rebels look similar

I have made an Active Force User Lineage Chart in CANON but before making adjustments regarding the formatting I wanted to ask everyone is there anyone missing here? A connection that is wrong, fixages you would suggest. Let me know how I can improve this chart.