u/Evurr

On the Bel'Veth midscope, please, they need to walk it back at least a little bit. It doesn't fix the champion's issues, it just flips her on her head(s).

I understand they wanted to kill the level 1-4 invades, I fully support that as a Bel'Veth one trick, but the midscope takes it WAY too far. It doesn't "fix" her early strength, it just makes her completely unable to play the game early. It doesn't have to be so binary. She can be weaker early without being one of the weakest champions in the game early.

Bel'Veth is my favorite champion by far. In fact, she is my favorite fictional character. I don't want her to be OP. I don't want level 1 invades. I just want what's best for the character.

In my replies to this post you can find my suggested changes to the midscope, while this post is mostly my reasoning for why it needs to be adjusted.

Bel'Veth's design lends itself best to being more of a generalist than people think. Bel'Veth's design is at it's best when she is encouraged to play aggressively and make plays around the map throughout the entire game, not avoid all interaction until she auto wins with stats late game. Not only is her being unplayable early and unbeatable late contrary to how she was presented both in her spotlight and general release, it doesn't fit the lore of the champion.

Bel'Veth is a monsterous being wanting to devour all life, but she isn't some mindless beast. She is a tactical leader who above all else just wants to survive and bring prosperity to The Void. Just as Jarven wants to do all he can for Demacia, or Swain for Noxus, or even Irelia for Ionia, Bel'Veth's entire purpose is to represent and serve The Lavender Sea.

The Void is The Void of course, so Bel'Veth goes about leading in a far different way, but she ultimately still is a leader. Her strength comes just as much from her fellow Voidspawn and the allies she hopes to make with humanity as it does herself.

Bel'Veth being an early play maker fits her far more than a dedicated late game win condition. Unlike other infinite scalers such as Smolder or Nasus, Bel'Veth's stacks and kit at large heavily incentivizes her to play aggressively and get kills. Her infinite scaling functions far more like Kindred than Aurelion Sol. Her stacks aren't there to reward her for playing safe and scaling, they are there to punish her for not getting a lead. She get's to have great scaling while still having great play potential early because she is punished far more than most champions for falling behind. High risk, high reward. Feast or famine. Look no farther than her R, which inherently is feast or famine, fittingly called "Endless Banquet".

This is, again, far more fitting for Bel'Veth. Bel'Veth in lore is proactive. She needs to act, for the quicker she can grow in strength AND accrue and strengthen her fellow Voidborn and human allies, the better. She needs to kill the Watchers before they destroy existence. Her being a high risk high reward champion who wants to get as big of a lead as quickly as possible is far, far more fitting for this than her wanting to play as safe as possible and more or less just wait until she wins via simply having bigger numbers than the enemy.

Again, Bel'Veth was too heavily balanced around her early game. She needed early nerfs. But the midscope, instead of nerfing her early game while still allowing her to fulfill her playmaking Void Empress identity, the midscope more or less band aid "fixes" her, stopping her from doing pretty much anything pre level 8-9 at least. The midscope took this highly proactive character in lore, who was reflected by playing highly proactive in game, and made them entirely reactive, nearly completely unable to make proactive plays, and forcing her to play safe.

Bel'Veth shouldn't auto win level 1 invades. But she shouldn't be forced to play safe. If nothing else, it doesn't fit her lore or character. More importantly, it doesn't fit her abilities.

Nobody wanted Bel'Veth to be entirely balanced around level 1-3, but NOBODY, wanted her to be unable to do literally anything level 1-3.

Beyond this, the midscope doesn't actually fix the problems with the champion. Bel'Veth has always been too strong early, being unfair for the enemy, but instead of making her early fair on both sides, it just flips it around and makes it unfair for Bel'Veth. Her mid game has always been too reliant on early leads, but instead of making her scale faster or have more utility/control by midgame, the midscope just makes her late game so unfairly OP that her mid game doesn't matter. The problems haven't been fixed, they've just been inverted.

Same with her win rate. Her win rate has historically been highest pre 25 minutes, then falls off a cliff, then it usually starts to come back past 35 minutes. This is how you would expect the character to work, but it was too extreme. Her winrate pre 25 needed to be lower, and her win rate post 30 needed to more consistently recover from it's mid game drop. But with the midscope, her early game winrate isn't lower, it's nonexistentent. Her late game win rate isn't more consistently recovering from a mid game drop, it's consistently the only point of the game she has a positive winrate.

Riot August has said that, even with the midscope, Bel'Veth is supposed to be a snowballing infinite scaler, again, more similar to Kindred than Smolder. Her win rate per game length reflects that the midscope has failed to accomplish this. Though the stats are still early, it seems her winrate per game length is even lower early than champions like Smolder Aurelion Sol and Kayle, yet even higher late. She can't succeed at her design goal of being a snowballing infinite scaling duelist if her win rate per game length reflects an even more extreme dedicated late game win condition than Aurelion Sol or Kayle.

Her win rate per rank also was not improved. Instead of making it more consistent between ranks, the midscope just flipped the pattern around. Instead of being meh at best at low elo and great if not OP at high elo, the midscope seems to be utterly OP at low elo and situationally playable at best in high elo. Again, that doesn't show that the problem was fixed, only flipped.

The midscope has good conceptual ideas, they just are executed too extremely or too simply. See the follow up replies to see how I would reccomend adjusting the midscope and why.

They should have let her remain as being more of a generalist than they intended. Nerf her early game because it was too strong, and buff her mid game to compensate. Her being an "all game" champion (like many champions are, not excelling too much at any point but never being bad) fit her far better than a dedicated auto win late champion they wanted her to be. But instead they ruined her design to try and ramshackle it into being what they wanted, with no care for the actual quality of the end result.

It has nothing to do with her strength and everything to do with her gameplay being simplified. Her E deals less damage, and it's damage depends on enemy health way less. Getting optimal damage out of E is basically pointless. You use E for the damage reduction and basically nothing else. The attacks only really serve to stack the R passive. The whole midscope does similar things to all the abilities.

Even if they nerfed the E damage to be 6%, so it's still only 24% at max but scaled up to 300% bonus damage, that would be better.

The midscope's main purpose was to dumb the champion down, and that's just pathetic. If they wanted to stop her invades, all they had to do was the Q change, maybe the base stat changes, then buff her scalings across the board A LITTLE BIT (really not much) to compensate. Instead, they inverted the playstyle of the champion completly, not actually fixing any of her issues, and just band aid fixing stuff while flipping the champion on her head(s).

Bel'Veth's "flaw" (which it's arguable if it was ever even a flaw) was always that she was too strong early, and too reliant on an early lead mid game. Her late has always been strong, the issue is her mid game and weak teamfights.

Instead of fixing this by making her early weaker (but not useless), and making her scale a bit faster to help her mid game, they just inverted the problems.

Instead of fixing the things that made her too invasive early, they stopped her from playing early at all. Instead of buffing her mid game, they made her late game so incredibly OP that it doesn't matter.

People saying "oh old players are just mad they can't auto win level 1" and that is utter nonsense and a straw man. I can say the same thing about the people who prefer the new Bel. "You're all just low elo and don't want your braindead auto win late free LP below Gold character taken away"

The midscope didn't fix anything, just replaced issues with different issues.

People didn't like playing agaisnt Bel invades, you think they'll like playing agaisnt Bel'Veth auto winning if the game goes long enough?

Bel always has been more of a generalist then she was meant to be, and that was a good thing. Instead of adjusting her to play properly into that, they killed the design of the champion to pigeon hole it into being what they wanted.

Because when Quinn, who was supposed to be a bot laner, then adjusted to be a top laner, ended up being best JG, they balance her for JG. When Senna, who was supposed to be an easy support who plays like a typical ADC, ended up being best played as a very nonstandard ADC who doesn't play at all like either support or ADC, they try to make it work. But when Bel'Veth is a far more interesting and skill expressive character than they thought, one of the most unique characters in the game, for FOUR YEARS, that's just unacceptable and they need to completely alter how the champion is played.

Because they have a new skin coming out and they want it to sell. So they stupify the character so more low skill gold players will want to buy it and they'll make more money.

Edit: Check my comment labeled Edit

Why not make the E a perfect in-between from the midscope and before?

Damage: 10% - 30% AD and on hit. 10% scaling up to 200% bonus damage based on missing health for a max of 30%.

Lifesteal: 22%-30% + 50% lifesteal

Despite how big of a change the E got, people are overlooking basically all the changes except the Q. This is a shame, because while the Q basically is unchanged once leveled, E plays quite differently no matter what.

Before the midscope it's damage was 8%-36% AD, bring increased by up to 300%. Now it's 12% to 24%, being increased by up to 100%.

Before the midscope, E granted 20% + 100% lifesteal, so it doubled your lifesteal plus 20%. Now it just grants 20%-40% flat.

I thoroughly believe this is one of the worst changes of the midscope, and that the E was better before. But even if they are dead set on the changes, they still go too far. Making the E's missing health scaling 1/3rd heavily takes away from the identity of the ability, and makes casting it less interesting. It makes the ability too focused on using it on cooldown without caring about the enemy health. The lifesteal scaling being removed also ruins her build diversity. The lifesteal scaling allowed building lifesteal items to make E heal her more even though they didn't provide as much damage as non-lifesteal items. With the scaling removed however, there is no situation where lifesteal provides higher E healing, and you are always better off building full damage. A perfect balance between the two would be easy.

Make the damage 10%-30% AD, being increased by up to 200% based on missing health. Still more damage on high health targets than before the midscope, but more on low health targets than the midscope. This would make enemy health more important to the ability. Not as important as pre-midscope, but far more important than post-midscope.

Make the lifesteal 23% - 35% +50% lifesteal. It would restore the unique and appealing lifesteal scaling, while her effective lifesteal wouldn't change much unless you are building around it. This would help item diversity and encourage more consideration for lifesteal.

The same could be done for Q and W and passive too.

Q Cooldown: 3/2.5/2/1.5/1

W slow: 30%-64% for 1.5 seconds

Passive stack value: .1%-1.6%

Passive attack speed after cast: 15% + .2% stacks (so 1% more attack speed every 5 stacks)

Most new skins come with icons, but I hope it also comes with an emote. Bel'Veth only has two emotes, and both are unobtainable through regular means, not to mention the first is the ranked emote so the rank in the emote is locked to your rank during that season. It'd be nice if she had an emote that you can buy in the shop without being limited in some way

(This is a far more loose concept than my other character concepts. She is heavily inspired by Samuel from Vainglory)

Appearance: She's a goth girl of undecided race (not overly tan nor pale). Early 20s. Has no weapons, wearing a black dress with white accents. Her abilities are primarily dark purple and dark red.

Lore: She escaped a cult, which she was born into. The daughter of the cult leader and one of his many wives, she was luckily exempt from much of their activity. Nonetheless, she hated them. Their obnoxious, horrible actions, and the control they insisted upon her. She departed to be on her own, yet only found a new master. She gave herself into the unknowable entity Gaolz, taking up it's power, in exchange for doing it's bidding.

Range: 525

Scalings: Exclusively AP

Passive: Disdain

Her next attack is empowered to deal bonus magic damage and reduces her cooldowns. Reduces her cooldowns more if used on a character, along with healing her for a portion of the damage dealt.

Q: Twilight Eyes

Fires a bolt of magic that deals magic damage in an AOE around the first target hit, then charges up another that is fired in the same direction and deals up to double the damage of the first over 2 seconds. The ability can be recast to fire the second bolt, doing however much damage it has charged. The second bolt is automatically fired after 3 seconds. Hitting the second bolt reduces the passive's cooldown. Reduces the passive's cooldown by the same amount regardless of charge. Can move while casting. Cooldown begins on ability start.

W: Liminal Cloud

Emits a large area that slowly moves forward for 4 seconds, dealing very small magic damage to all enemies hit every second. Enemies within the area take increased damage from the Q and R, and heal her for a portion of the damage they take from all sources, with the healing heavily reduced on non-characters. Hitting enemies with Q while they are in the area extends the duration of the cloud by 1.5 seconds up to 10 seconds maximum. Can move while casting.

After 2 seconds, she gains the ability to cast the recast for 3 seconds. Can only cast 1 recast per cast.

(Recast): Ethereal Grasp

Targets an area, then deals damage and ensnares all targets in the area shortly after. Ensnared enemies are able to move, but are increasingly slowed as they move from where they were when ensnared, being completely unable to move beyond a certain point (but still able to dash). She can cast abilities and basic attack while moving at a reduced speed while targeting the area for .7 seconds, but is completely unable to act for .3 seconds before the snare ensnares.

E: Dark Favors

Pulls targeted character towards herself, dealing magic damage and slowing them for .5 seconds after the pull. If cast on an ally, she instead pushes them away from her posisiton, granting them movespeed for .5 seconds. Very high range, very high cooldown. Can move while casting.

R: Otherlight

After a delay, becomes unstoppable and channels a laser that deals high damage within a long range over the next 3 seconds. Can still cast Q, W, and E. If her passive is ready, she can basic attack as well. She can still move during the pause, increasingly slowed until she is able to move at a very slow rate once she starts channeling the laser.

If canceled during the delay, is put on a 10 second cooldown.

This (probably) isn't a legit good build, more so just a fun thing for swiftplay, but hear me out.

Heartsteel, Titanic, Sundered Sky, Riftmaker, Overlord's Bloodmail, Steelcaps. Grasp of the Undying, top lane.

They made her R give more health with AD, from 120% to 150%, but they more impactfully increased the AP ratio from 90% to 150%. Her R gives max health, which works with health ratios. So Riftmaker gives AP, which makes R give more health, which makes Overlord's give more AD, which makes R give more health, which makes Riftmaker give more AP.

The midscope makes her attacks apply on hits at 100% effectiveness, so not only is Titanic better with it's active, but so is Heartsteel.

So Heartsteel grants tons of health, which makes Riftmaker grant tons of AP, which makes R grant tons of health, which makes Overlord's grant tons of AD, which makes R grants even more tons of health, resulting in Titanic dealing tons of damage.

Now you might be tempted to get Warmog's to increase your health by a percentage, BUT, Warmog's doesn't increase your health from R, so let me sell you on Sundered Sky.

Sundered Sky heals you based on your missing health, and all your health lets you live long enough to get multiple procs off the same target, while Bel'Veth's mobility lets you proc it on cooldown agaisnt multiple targets, which effectively increases your max health (in combat) by far more than Warmog's can.

With all these items, before factoring in infinite scaling or base stats, Bel has 2800 bonus health, and R grants about 500 bonus health, for a total of 3300 bonus health with about 150 AP and 200 AD.

Factoring in base stats, that gives Bel a total of (at level 20) 285 AD, 150 AP, and 6442 health, with Titanic dealling 257 damage with the active, and 64 damage on hit, Heartsteel dealing 468 damage Grasp dealing 232, all increased by 10% by Riftmaker.

Remember, that's 6k health BEFORE infinite scaling, which increases your AD and AP too, AND before Overlord's, which increases your AD further.

Assuming you're top lane, with Grasp and Heartsteel, tou can easily get an additional 1K health.

This is a build I've had plenty of fun with before, and it'll only be better after the midscope (BUT, her laning will be far worse, and she'll be able to proc Grasp less early, but it'll still probably be a buff to the build)

It'll for sure be a fun build

Edit: Thinking about it more, Bandlepipes might be better third item. It's cheaper, and the build is critically missing resistences and attack speed, both of which Bandlepipes provide. Also, the team fight aura is infinitely more useful than more health, as the build heavily favors teamfights, and stronger allies = more takedowns = more true form uptime

He talks about enjoying her for:

Her high skill floor/ceiling: the midscope goes out of it's way to reduce those

Her ability to excelerate games: heavily brought down

Her E being highly dynamic and impactful: heavily brought down

Her kit NOT playing like Yi: midscope at least tries to make her play less unqiue

It's just funny how this video, almost certainly made at least in most part before the midscope was revealed, has him enjoy the champion for basically all the things the midscope aims to bring down, at least with the E, R, and attack changes.

Like the video shows exactly what people say. Bel'Veth is weird and unique, but once you learn her she is one of the most enjoyable champs in the game. Everything the midscope aims to change.

People who like the midscope, would you still like it if the changes were adjusted to this?

And people who dislike the midscope, would you like it more if the changes were this?

This serves basically as a sister post to my other post, with how I would fix the issue I take with the midscope.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/HIbP00G7Zc

I am sorry if I am posting on this subreddit too much. I address that more at the bottom.

You can skip the explanations below the changes if you just want to see the changes.

TLDR:

Attacks still deal 75% damage with faster attack speed.

Passive attack speed after cast increases the value of your stacks while active, but the stacks themselves grant slightly less.

Q cooldown 3 - .75 seconds, scaling with champ level instead of ability rank. Deals 80% - 100% damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions) scaling with ability rank. Has 110% AD ratio.

W slow is better, knockup slightly worse, base damage down, AP buff removed, and 100% stacks scaling added.

E damage changes removed. Lifesteal scaling added back. Cooldown and damage reduction same as midscope, but the rest same as live.

R on hit applies every attack and can stack on multiple targets. Damage is overall lower but now scales with AP and stacks.

R explosion damage AP buff removed, now scales with stacks.

R true form duration is now 45s + 1 second per stack, never infinite.

TLDR OVER

Attack damage modifier: 75%

Attack speed ratio: .85

Changing the attacks to deal 100% damage at reduced rate is needless if nothing else, and actively takes away from the champion. Yes, it fixes some bugs, but with League Next supposedly coming next year, I'm sure they could fix the bugs without just removing the mechanic. I'd rather keep the signature attribute of the character and wait a year to fix some bugs she's been playing around for the past 4 years. All other associated changes undone too. So .85 attack speed ratio, same windups.

All other base stat changes: same as midscope.

I think the rest of the midscopes base stat adjustments are perfect. She already has the lowest base AD in the game at level 18, and nerfing her AD at level 1 by 5 only makes that even more true, but it's fair enough.

Passive bonus attack speed after cast: 20% + .2% Stacks. So each stack grants .2% more attack speed for 3 seconds after cast.

Passive bonus attack speed stack value: .1% - 1.5%.

(.1 +.05 per level to level 11, then +.1 per level to 16, then plus .15 for 17 and 18, (and 19 and 20 for top lane) for a total of 1.5 at level 18. The slower scaling compensated for with the flat .2% effectiveness per stack on the passive after cast)

So instead of getting .1% to 2% attack speed from each stack, each stack grants .1% to 1.5%. The passive change remedies this though, as with the passive your stacks are effectively worth .3% - 1.7%. A portion of the stacks value being tied to being after cast not only makes the attack speed after cast more meaningful, and stops it from seeming pointless past first clear, but it also helps stacks not be so polarizing. The stack value to the passive is .2% at all levels, so the stacks are less meaningless at early levels at the cost of needing the attack speed after cast to be at full effectivness. This would smooth the champion out, making her less polarizing while still having much of her power locked behind scaling.

Q cooldown: 3 - .75 second cooldown based on CHAMPION LEVEL.

(So 3 second cooldown, minus .15 seconds per level until level 16)

Q damage: 5/10/15/20/25 + 110% AD

OR (if that would be OP)

Q damage: 0 + 110% AD (no base damage)

Q bonus damage to monsters: 50 at all ranks

Q damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions): 80%/85%/90%/95%/100%

I like the Q changes in the midscope, but I feel they kill lane Bel'Veth too much. This would accomplish the same things as the midscope changes, but in a more elegant way that doesn't force you to level Q first as much. The midscope cooldown change feels like a band aid fix. The ability is just unusable rank 1, but then same as usual rank 5. If it scaled with champion level, it could be less nerfed level 1 while still stopping her from invading at early levels. She would still be encouraged to max Q first so that it deals good damage to champions, but she wouldn't be forced to so she could still max W first for lane without having an abysmal Q cooldown. The damage nerf to champions early just furthers the midscops goal of nerfing her ability to invade early, and allows for the ability to have more damage later on. The damage nerf to champions and minions until maxed would make up for leveling the ability not reducing the cooldown, making putting points into it still meaningful.

Q dash speed: 800 + 200% stacks

The dash speed being fixed and slower is just needless and unfun. A stack scaling would let the dash get faster throughout the game without ever getting too fast. It would be the same as max level Q on live at 100 stacks, so it would never be OP.

Q magic damage: 10% AP to all targets hit

This is more of a want than a need, but adding a 10% AP magic damage ratio to Q would be a much better way to buff her synergy with AP.

W damage: 50/100/150/200/250 + 125% AP + 100% stacks

W knockup duration: .55/.6/.65/.7/.75

OR (if it wouldn't be too strong with the other changes)

W knockup duration: .6/.7/.8/.9/1

Slow duration: 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25

OR (if this would nerf her early too much)

Slow duration: 2

Slow value: 30% - 64% based on CHAMPION LEVEL

(So 30% plus 2% per champion level)

Honestly I'd just do no changes to the W, but if they really wanted to remove the AD ratio and lower the knockup duration early, this is how I'd do it. The knockup duration is still lower early, but doesn't get as high late. That leaves room for the slow to be stronger. Still weaker early, even weaker than the midscope, but the strength of the slow scales with champion level and lasts longer once maxed. This, just like the Q, accomplishes the goals of the midscope without changing the ability as much. The biggest thing is the stack scaling. I would give the ability less base damage than the midscope gave it, and not buff the AP ratio, in order for it to have a 100% stack scaling. This would basically be a nerf to it's damage, but it would heavily increase the scaling identity of the champion. Nothing gets low elo players gears going like stacking mechanics, and making Bel'Veth's Stacks more visibly strong by W having a stack scaling would up her playrate and get more people to play her. It would never be too big, and honestly my changes would probably result in the ability just doing less damage no matter what, but the mere fact that the scaling is there would do wonders for the champion.

Damage changes: removed (so the same as live)

Damage reduction: 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% (so the same as the midscope)

E lifesteal: 15% + 100% lifesteal (so same as live but with 5% less)

Cooldown: 24/21/18/15/12 (so same as the midscope)

The E changes are some of the worst changes, second only to the attack changes. The lower damage reduction and cooldown early in favor of better damage reduction and cooldown when maxed is good though, and fits with the goals of the midscope. The damage changes kill the identity of the ability, and are needless.

R on hit: every attack, can stack on multiple targets (so same as midscope)

R on hit damage: 1/2/3 + 2% bAD + 2% AP + 3% stacks

OR (if that's too small with the 75% damage)

R on hit damage: 2/3/4 + 3% bAD + 3% AP + 4% stacks

The R on hit damage changes are alright, but they would need to be brought down a bit. The R on hit should have an AP scaling so items like Nashor's or Static are as viable on Bel as they should be. The stack scaling is again, super small. 1 extra damage every 33 stacks. Again, it's there more so low elo players look at the champion and think they want to play her. They look at the ability and think "Awsome! All my stacks are making my R do so much damage!" Even though due to the small base damage and scalings, the R on hit would still be doing about the same damage.

R true form health: same as midscope

OR (if that would be too much with the other changes)

R true form health: 100/200/300 + 150% bAD + 150% AP (so 100 less base at rank 3 than the midscope. Maybe the scalings could be brought down too)

R form total attack speed: 5%/15%/25%

R true form duration: 45 + 100% stacks

The higher health granted from form is a good way to compensate for the worse early, but the infinite form of the midscope is just toxic. 45 seconds plus 1 second per stack would be far better for the balance of the character, making her far less annoying to play agaisnt, and far more engaging to play. The midscope gives her 45 extra seconds at 40 stacks anyways, so the midscope is basically already doing what I recommend, it's just doing it in an unintuitive and polarizing way. Yes, infinite form might sound fun, but think about it from the enemy perspective. Bel'Veth has form forever, and if she had minion spawning, even without baron buff, good luck trying to do anything while one of your lanes has to deal with 3 times the minions permanently. You can't wait it out, and Bel'Veth is encouraged to play uber safe to avoid losing it.

The R form can keep the 25% total attack speed instead of 20% at max rank. I think it's a decent change, and her retaining her .85 attack speed ratio wouldn't invalidate it. With the .75 attack damage, Bel'Veth's effective attack speed ratio with max level R would be lower than the midscope, which is fair as my recommended adjustments make her early a little less weak, so naturally her late should be at least a little less strong.

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the bonus attack range scaling with level and the size increase, but I think they are fine and don't need changes. The size increase is cool, and the bonus range makes sense, so maybe they will need to be adjusted, but in concept those changes are fine.

The R form losing the out of combat movespeed is a shame, but it makes sense with the purpose of the midscope and is a good change.

R explosion damage: 75/100/125 + 100% AP + 200% stacks + 20% missing health

OR (if 200% stacks would be too much)

R explosion damage: 100/125/150 + 100% AP + 100% stacks + 20% missing health

The R having a 150% AP ratio is just silly. It's way too high, a low effort way to buff AP on her. The on hit having an AP scaling is a much better way to do it. The base damage of the explosion is heavily reduced to make room for the stack scaling. Again, the actual damage of the ability would be almost the same, a little higher with super high stacks, but actually lower in most situations. The stack ratio is there to let players look at the R and think "Woah this stacking character is cool". All the stack scalings let low elo players see the value of her stacks beyond "extra attack speed" without actually buffing the damage of her abilities.

I am sorry I am posting so much, but I am extremely passionate about this. I want to do everything I can to help my favorite character not be put to ruin. If even a few people see the logic in my recommendations and advocate for better changes, that's good.

People seem way to black and white about the changes, either loving them or having them without actually discussing the changes themselves. We need to be as unified and logical with what we think about the changes if we want Riot to tweak them at all.

To all the people who like the midscope, would these changes be just as good if not better?

And to all the people who hate the midscope, would these change alleviate at least some of the issue you take with it?

PLEASE READ if you like the midscope and don't understand why people don't like it.

I want to make it clear that I hate the midscope. Some people seem to think that everyone who doesn't like the midscope just wants level 1 cheese though. That couldn't be further from the case (maybe some people just want level 1 cheese, but not most mains as far as I know). Let me quickly go through each change and say why I think it's good or bad.

Sister post of how I would address these issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/1ruGT5n9QU

Basic attacks dealling full damage with less attack speed: HORRIBLE. Why change this? This doesn't really make her worse early or better late, just makes her less unique. Because in a game with a roster of almost 200 and growing, why do we need MORE homogeneity? The only real reason I can think of why this change was done is specifically BECAUSE it makes her less unique. Making her more like other champions theoretically will up her play rate. However, it actively will decrease her play depth. The change at it's very core trades in major main enjoyment for maybe slightly more casual players. A good consequence of this change is that it fixes some bugs where her reduced damage was applying where it shouldn't have, but that just strikes me as lazy. Instead of actually fixing the bugs, they just remove the mechnic that caused them. One of the most signature aspects of Bel'Veth, that her entire kit was designed around, gone. It really feels like half the changes in the midscope are only there because August was insecure about one of the champs he worked on being niche (yeah other champions he worked on aren't super popular either, but Bel is the least popular, and she was intended to be very popular, Riot made that clear on release). Being niche is fine. We NEED niche champions. If every champion appealed to as broad a playerbase as possible, we would have maybe 20 champions in reality, with 10 different reskins of each same design.

Passive attack speed after cast becoming a duration instead of an amount of attacks: FINE. I don't love this change, and I think there are ways they could have adjusted the number of attacks to be better, but this change is fine. My only big issue is the fact that it doesn't scale at all. It's just 20% all game. It should scale somehow. Be it with levels, or stacks (like .1% attack speed, something super minor but nonetheless there to make it not feel so useless past first clear), or AP (like 1% attack speed per 15 AP).

All the Q changes: GOOD. Don't get me wrong there is definetly going to need to be some tweaks to the numbers, like maybe 4 seconds level 1 is too high, maybe 105% AD isn't enough, maybe maybe maybe ect. But at it's core, this is a very good change. I have two requests with it though. I think it would be better if the Q cooldown scaled with champion level, not ability level. That way, instead of being useless level 1, then back to normal level 9, basically a band aid fix, it could be more consistent throughout the game. Like 3s level 1, minus .15 seconds per level down to .75 at level 16, no more with further levels. This way, you aren't forced to max Q first as much, and the nerf to it's cooldown level 1 can be smaller due having a higher cooldown for more of the game. Less of a nerf for longer would be better than "you don't get to play until level 9 where it's back to business as usual". Also, the dash speed should scale with stacks. It should be 800 +200% stacks, that way the dash speed still increases as the game goes on. Making it flat just makes the ability feel worse.

All the W changes: BAD. I get they wanted to make her early worse, but the base stats + Q changes + passive changes + W changes are just too much. All the W changes should be reverted. Buffing the AP ratio is just lazy instead of putting small AP on Q or R passive or passive attack speed. You get way too much from leveling the ability. 80 base damage is huge + more knockup + lower cooldown on an ability most players are going to max last is insane. Having the slow duration go up with level was a far better way to have it's control go up with level. If they really wanted to nerf it, they should have reduced it's knockup to .5 + .05 per level, to .75 at max, with the slow being 30%-64% (scaling 2% per champion level), lasting either a flat 2 seconds, or 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25.

E damage changes: AWFUL. Easily the worst change in the midscope aside from the attack changes. Kills the identity of the ability, homogenizes all it's attributes. Throughout all of Bel's existence, the ability has been incredibly strong, balanced out by being highly situational, making for a very fun and skillful ability. Knowing when to use E, and far more so, knowing how to create the circumstances E needs to be great, is one of Bel'Veth's most skill intensive attributes. Lowering how much the damage is increased with health heavily diminishes that. The choice between using it at an inopportune time for the damage reduction, or saving it for when the enemy is lower is basically gone. Now you just use it when the enemy uses their burst, only really encouraged to save it for when they are low if the enemy doesn't have much burst (like agaisnt other basic attackers). The change is horrible.

E no longer doubling lifesteal: UNFORGIVABLE. This, again, takes away one of Bel'Veth's most defining features, and one of her most fun attributes. I don't care if "oh but she gets slightly more with it with a typical build", it's stupid and kills item diversity. That might sound wrong, you might think making the ability give more lifesteal base but not scaling with lifesteal would be good for item diversity, but let me explain. The E doubling lifesteal served a very important purpose. It made going lifesteal worth getting over more damage in Select situations, and allowed for full lifesteal builds. Now, the difference between building lifesteal and not building lifesteal is way less, so you have way less reason to build lifesteal. Gone is analyzing the game to decide if getting more lifesteal or getting more damage is better, now you just always get more damage because with the E giving more base, it'll make you heal more anyways. The lifesteal ratio balanced the ability's damage and healing. It said "if you get lifesteal, you will heal more, NOT by dealing more damage, but by healing more of what you deal. This way, lifesteal heals you MORE than getting more damage, again, making lifesteal give more healing than just more damage". That's gone. Now it's just "buy damage because lifesteal will never heal you more than more damage". The choice between heal more or damage more is gone, now it's just always damage more.

TO BE CLEAR, I am not saying she should have the lifesteal scaling AND the 40% bonus lifesteal. She should have 20% and the scaling. Basically, the E in it's entirety, aside from maybe the damage reduction being 20-60, need to not be changed, or at least, changed in a different way.

R form changes: ALMOST GREAT. The R giving more health is good I guess, it helps her late game and would be a good way to balance out the Q cooldown nerf. But what's with the form duration changes? I get what they're going for, but they just seem half baked. Why not 45s + 1s per stack? That way instead of suddenly jumping from 45 to 90 at 40 stacks, and then suddenly jumping from 90 to infinite at 80 stacks, the duration would slowly increase throughout the entire game. Infinite duration R form just seems toxic anyways. Let me take you into a situation. Bel'Veth got 80 stacks, and she had remora spawning from herald which she extended using the 90s duration and getting an occasional takedown. So now without getting Baron, Bel'Veth does 1 thing: play extremely passive and serve as a remora spawner. Dying would be too punishing, so it encourages Bel'Veth to play extremely passive, which not only doesn't fit her character, but would just be boring for all players. Bel'Veth just wants to play safe and spawn minions to push waves, while the enemy team just has to defend a tripled minion wave for the rest of the game. The temporary nature of her R forces her to actually make plays and use it, not just get one Coral then sit back for the rest of the game. Her getting infinite form arbitrarily at 80 stacks is just nonsensical. If her form last 45s, + 1 second per stack, that would make perfect sense. Worse early, still temporary, fits the scaling fantasy, a good change

R on hit damage changes: FINE/UNACCEPTABLE. The reason the damage was applied on every other attack was to give enemies a chance to react. Due to Bel'Veth's high attack speed, it being applied every other attack gave enemies time to think "wow that attack did a lot of true damage, I should retreat" before they get slapped with another application of that huge true damage. With Bel'Veth's attack speed being RUINED, that doesn't have to be there anymore. Honestly I'm sure you could make applying every attack work with the .85 attack speed with reduced attacks. This change in isolation is fine, but it was only made due to the worst change of the entire midscope.

Base stat changes: PERFECT. The base stat changes (aside from the reduced damage on attack being removed for a lower attack speed) are perfect and exactly what the champion needed. The Q change + the base stat changes would have been enough to kill level 1 invades on their own, without killing all the other fun parts of the character.

Size increase: WHY? I mean I don't hate it, but why? Making her 5% smaller base to make her 25% bigger with max level R form is cool I guess, and maybe it makes her late game every so slightly better with effectively higher range attacks? It just makes her a bigger target for skillshots though. The higher base health along with the bigger size makes me think August really wants Bel'Veth to just spam Q to gap close and face tank skill shots, instead of using Q to dodge and positioning well. Only supports my thoughts that August doesn't care about the character's design quality, he just wants her to have more players. August would clearly rather have a less unique, less skillful, less mained character who is played a bit more by silver players.

All the changes make her better for low elo players who will play her maybe once every hundred games, and worse for basically everyone else. I like the concept behind the midscope, taking her from an early playmaker who transitions into a late game duelist who wants to close the game out ASAP to a mid game playmaker who transitions into a late game duelist who wants to close out the game ASAP is fine.

Again, I LIKE the concept of the changes and what they supposedly want to accomplish, it's the specific changes that I hate. They go way too far, and change stuff that never should have been changed.

Basically, around 4 good-acceptable changes, and more than 5 terrible changes.

I am a over 2 million mastery Bel'Veth main. I've been playing her since release. I don't ONLY play her, though I would call myself a one trick.

PLEASE READ BEFORE COMMENTING!!!

(I added a TLDR in the comments if you just want the change ideas without the reasoning for them though)

I've always wanted for Bel'Veth to have direct stack scalings, so she is more like other infinite scalers instead of just stacking attack speed (which in large part just makes up for her not getting attack speed with level). A midscope would be the perfect time to add that.

A big complaint of Bel'Veth is that she doesn't fulfill her fantasy (both before the midscope AND after people still think she doesn't really fit), and while I almost entirely disagree with that sentiment, I think a lot of it comes from her stacks being attack speed and nothing else. Every other infinite scaler in the game (aside from Bard who is debateable. Swain and Sion don't count IMO) has direct stack scalings, even the ones who directly gain stats from their stacks (Thresh and Senna's stacks are almost entirely about the stats they give, but they still have direct stack scalings on their abilities), so why should Bel'Veth be different?

Reduce her base damages, and give her not overwhelming but nonetheless impactful stack scalings. Specifically W and R. Q and E don't need stack scalings, as they already benefit from the attack speed the stacks give. W and R not only don't benefit from the attack speed, but actively work agaisnt it with their cast times.

So this is what I mean by giving them stack scalings:

W: Damage from 80 to 320 gaining 60 damage per level, to 60 to 220 gaining 40 per level (still missing the bAD scaling the midscope took away). This would come out to a total 100 damage nerf at max rank. The W would gain a 100% stack scaling, so each stack increases the W damage by 1. This would mean the damage is the same with W at max rank at 100 stacks. So the damage is less at max W rank if you have less than 100 stacks, and more if you have more. While the W damage is slightly higher throughout the game before you put points into W.

Basically, the W's base damage would be how it is pre midscope, but with the bAD ratio still removed yet made up for by a 100% stack scaling.

Bel'Veth is almost never going to get siginifcantly more than 100 stacks in a game, so this wouldn't make her W do very much more damage at max, what it would moreso serve to do is make it's damage scale more consistently throughout the match. If you are maxing W last (which I think it should be a choice whether to max W or E second, not just max E second everygame), the insane 60 base damage per level with no AD scaling just makes it's damage way too lopsided. It goes from 80 damage all game (unless you are building AP which most players in most games won't) to 320 way too fast and way too suddenly. The ability already gains a lot of power from putting levels into with the knockup duration, it doesn't need insane damage per level too. If they are dedicated to keeping the AD ratio gone, less base damage growth with stack scaling would not only make the ability's damage more consistent throughout the game, but it would help her fulfill her stacking fantasy. Even if the damage is basically the same maybe very slightly higher with the stack scaling, it would feel way better and way more like you are stacking up.

R: Damage from 150 to 250, gaining 50 per level, to 85 to 155, gaining 35 per level. It would gain a 200% stack scaling (this is exclusively for the flat damage, not the missing health damage). All the same benefits as the W getting a stack scaling. This would be an overall slight buff to the R damage, so maybe the base would have to be lower, or maybe 200% is too much.

How Q and E could scale with stacks so every active ability does:

Q: Dash speed: 850 --> 800 + 200% stacks (so the dash cast time is reduced with stacks, the distance remains the same. I honestly don't know why it wasn't like this in the first place)

E: Range: 500 --> 450 + 100% stacks (so even at 50 stacks, 10% increase at 100)

Making Q and E deal damage with stacks wouldn't be the best idea as they already effectively do with Q lowering the cooldown and E getting more attacks (though I don't think a stack ratio on Q damage would be a bad idea, I think the dash speed would be better). The Q dash speed increasing with stacks would help greatly with the feel of the champion. Higher dash speed means less time spent in the dash, which means more time you can be basic attacking making use of the attack speed you have. With enough stacks, you could really feel like Bel'Veth in her cinematic, where her dash is almost instant. The ability just feels so much better with higher dash speed. E range is just sorta a no brainer, except maybe the numbers I have would be OP (though I doubt it. I don't see how a 10% nerf to it's range at 0 stacks and a 10% buff at 100 would be too good, if anything more of a nerf).

Less practical ideas:

R on-hit: The R on hit already scales with the stacks as it is an on hit which gets applied more with attack speed, but still, a very small stack scaling would do wonders not only for the fantasy of it but the balance of the champion. Damage from 2 to 6 gaining 2 per level, to 2 to 4 gaining 1 per level. A considerable nerf, but it would gain a 3% stack scaling (gaining 1 damage every 33 stacks, so 3 more damage at 100 stacks). This would be very minor, but would still have all the same benefits as the other two stack scalings. Besides, if anything that already benefited from the stacks should have a stack scaling, it should be the R on hit.

Passive: I hate how the midscope makes the passive attack speed after ability 20% flat with no scaling. So what if it scaled with stacks? This might seem counter intuitive, but hear me out.

Reduce the stacks efficiency from .1% to 2% (growth = .05-.15) to .07 to 1.6% (growth = .09) scaling with level, but make the attack speed after ability cast gain .4% per stack regardless of level. And make the passive give 15% flat instead of 20%. So a nerf to the super early, decent buff to the mid game, and very minor buff to the late game.

What this would mean, is that the stacks are slightly less effective without the passive, but slightly more effective with the passive. It would make stacks worth more early, so it doesn't feel like they don't do anything until later into the game, and it would make the attack speed after cast feel less useless past the first clear. So without making the stacks scale in value faster or be worth more early, they would indirectly be worth more early, with their value more consistent throughout the game instead of being almost valueless early and incredible late.

If .4% flat would be too much early, it could be .1%-.44%, gaining .02% per level. Still better early without being too OP. OR, it could just be .2% at all levels, with the stacks being worth .1% to 1.8%. Again, a buff to the early game stack value and making their value more consistent throughout the game at the cost of having a portion of the stacks value locked behind the attack speed after cast.

Or it could just be a flat out buff and have each stack increase the passive attack speed by .1% with the stack value unchanged. A very minor buff (10% more attack speed only after cast at 100 stacks), but again, this is mainly to make the ability feel better and the chanpion feel more like a stacker.

Again, this would not only make the champion feel more like a scaler/stacker, but make her power more consistent throughout the match, instead of being like pre midscope where it's too good early, or post midscope where it's all about late. She would both be more of a late game scaler, without being auto win condition late game.

Is this reasonable? I ask this as a genuine question. Is this something you guys would want? Do you think it would make more people play the champion? Do you think it would be balanced (or at least able to be balanced with tweaks)?

My answer to all of those is yes, what are yours?

Good change I guess, but at what point do they admit they should have just kept the W the same?

One of my biggest complaints of the midscope was that it was too level reliant, and this helps address that at least a little bit, but again, why not just leave the W alone? Why change it at all? They didn't have to change it just because they were changing everything else

Seems like it'd be a great item, at least in concept. 45 AD, 45 AP, 30% AS, and 4% ms.

With the midscope, Bel'Veth can stack R passive on multiple targets on the same time (which I HATE as it removes all gameplay and counterplay of the R passive, but alas), so Statikk doesn't mess it up anymore. Statikk was already a decent item on Bel'Veth, only brought down by it's anti-synergy with R passive.

Statikk, Gunblade, Nashor's could be a fun AP build. Maybe not the best or anything, but it definitely could work.

Statikk, Gunblade, Nashor's, Rageblade, Terminus, Mid for the magic pen boots OR Omnivamp boots OR attack speed boots. Just AOE the heck out of teamfights with Statikk and all the on hit's. Definition of a mixed attack speed build. Definitely going to try it out as soon as I can actually get into a game on PBE

I don't like the midscope. It has some good ideas, some great ideas, and many, many horrible ones. That being said, I think the build path for Bel with it will be radically changed.

BOTRK, Eclipse, Sundering Sky, DD, Zhonya's. Hail of Blades keystone.

1st: Blade of the Ruined King (For clear. BOTRK synergizes more with E, and you need at least some attack speed. It also synergizes with Hail of Blades burst of attack speed more than Conq or LT's backloaded effects, with the lifesteal synergizing amazingly with the high AD build and Bel's naturally high attack speed)

2nd: Eclipse (Bel gets full effectivness out of the damage, and given that her stacks give more attack speed, she gains more value out of AD. Eclipse's shield would hugely benefit her, and works very well with an AD centric build. The ability haste also helps immensely)

3rd: Sundering Sky (Bel gets full effectivness of the first crit with the midscope, and the healing synergizes with her higher base health past 6 AND her higher ult health. The AD centered items of the build playing off her 150% AD health ratio more than makes up for her low base AD for the heal)

4th: Death's Dance (needs no explanation)

5th: Zhonya's Hourglass (OP item for teamfights, and Bel needs all the help she can get in those. The higher AP ratios make Zhonyas fit into the build more (though a 10% AP magic damage on Q and maybe 2% on R passive would have been SO much better for the champion), and the armour just grants even more survivability, which she desperately needs)

Swap out DD/Zhonyas for Maw or Jak'Sho or Spirit Visage depending on the game.

Why Hail of Blades: She gets full effectiveness of the bonus damage on attacks, and the faster attack speed for limited attacks means more with her low ratio and base attack speed. They buffed her backloaded damage with R passive, but nerfed her backloaded damage with E, so Lethal Tempo is nerfed as a lot of it's value was with E. You could of course default to Conq but that's boring and a new champion (because the midscope is basically just an entirely new champion) deserves a new rune.

The main thing this build lacks is pen, so maybe Eclipse should be swapped out for Terminus or Black Cleaver.

Strong effects, big AD, much survivability, plenty of CDR, and good teamfights. The high health synergizes with E's lower damage but higher Damage reduction/Lifesteal. The high AD makes use of the higher AD ratios, with the armor from DD and Zhonya's making all the survivability effective (again, Spirit Visage instead of probably Zhonya's if you need MR, it increases all the healling and shielding anyway so it's probably a lot better regardless, I just wanted to shout out Zhonya's)

I've been trying to play her on PBE, but sadly Riot decided to release this major champion adjustment alongside LOL classic, and I have a job, so I can't really afford to spend 3 hours waiting to get into a game where all my teammates leave 4 minutes in. All the same, I think a build along these lines would be best for the midscope. Still hope the midscope gets majorly adjusted though.

Edit: Yeah this build probably won't be the best. I just wanted to try and take advantage of the full attack damage and make something interesting. Something other than building the same items every game. Seems Riot, and the community, really don't want actual item diversity though. They want to buuod the same thing in the same order every game

The midscope has some good concepts and a lot of horrible ones. This is how I would change the midscope to fix it.

Damage on attack: 100% --> 75% (reverted)

Attack speed ratio: .67 --> .85 (reverted)

Attack speed level 1: .67 --> .8 (lower than pre midscope)

Attack windup change reverted (this just ruins her animation quality and I have no idea why they did it in the first place)

Other base stats: same as the midscope (the base stat adjustments seem great, but she should have higher base AD growth. She already had the lowest base AD by max level, and now its even lower level 1 with no additional growth. Maybe not though)

Passive: 20% attack speed for 3 seconds after cast --> 14%-31% + 5% AP attack speed for 3 seconds after cast (the AP ratio is not necessary, but would be good and would greatly enpower Guinsoos on Bel'Veth specifically. The attack speed NEEDS some form of scaling, otherwise it just seems tacked on and pointless. Like it's here because she needs it for early clear, and they couldn't find a way to replace it with a more healthy mechanic. It just needs some scaling, be it level or AP, or both)

Stack effectiveness: .1-2% --> .2-1.4% (middle ground between PBE and live)

Q: cooldown: 4/3.25/2.5/1.75/1 --> 3.5/3/2.5/2/1.5 (again, middle ground)

Everything else the same as midscope. (The rest of the Q changes seem fair, though maybe would need a slight nerf with the rest of the changes I am listing)

W: All changes reverted (why change any of it? At best, the W should have it's knockup duration scale with champion level, having it scale with ability rank is terrible and unfun for everyone. It feels useless until you put points in it, but then too good when you do. It's okay for it to scale, but it should scale with champ level so it's not so binary "useless level 1, OP level 5")

E: damage changes reverted (it's maybe okay to nerf the actual damage, but changing the missing health scaling is a sin)

Damage reduction: 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% --> 9.85%-60% (growth = 2.95% per champion level) scales with champion level, not ability rank. (Similar to the W. Scaling with champion level would just make her scale far smoother throughout the game, instead of suddenly getting 40% more DR when maxed)

Lifesteal: 20%/25%/30%/35%/40% --> 15%/18.75%/22.5%/26.25%/30% (20%-40% lifesteal is just OP, and wouldn't work with the damage changes reverted. Even if the damage was nerfed, it's still too high)

Cooldown change from midscope kept.

R: All changes reverted EXCEPT for the 150% AD and 150% AP scalings on the true form health, and 50% additional AP on explosion with 5% lower missing health damage (The true damage on every hit wouldn't work with the reverted attack speed, and the duration changes just seem like a few steps too far to force her to be useless early)

These changes would accomplish all the same goals the midsxope aims to accomplish without utterly gutting the champion.