u/Nie_Nin-4210_427

The old Hitman games are great. The cutscenes have good direction and writing, the gameplay evolves from simulation puzzles to something almost imsimmy in Blood Money, and there are some levels with great art direction that are mainly places with much social culture establishing Hitman as a quick social manipulator through his disguises and few conversations. The least interesting parts are when 47 infiltrates criminal gang/terrorist/soldier bland basement/warehouse dwellers and/or prostitutes, or worse: boring or not working social places in for many missions samey environments. But at least we don‘t constantly see the story playing hamily in these parts (but then flash forward to Absolution…🤦🏻‍♂️)

Now flash forward to Hitman 2016. It really says: Let‘s take what Hitman fans consider the peaks of the games and run with it, after mistepping in taking that grittiness into a more dialogue and character presence heavy game. They bring in a Hotel, a high social event in paris, an italian mansion (whoops they added shops as another classic element, and for new stuff a small church, and a small secret lab!), and a high tech high altitude east asian place with a pool though definitely with a spin, in a world trotting adventure. They remember how little these classicaly „gritty“ levels and moments were in Absolution worked, so they decide to leave that mainly for what they also saw in the old levels with the best reception: Mostly tonaly light levels with interesting targets. They‘ll leave the darker levels for DLC, and tried a bit for the main story in Colorado. Yet they want to even expand on the backstories and simple behaviors. Absolution showed some potential for more dialogue heavy story to happen in levels, and they go all in. They write some incredibly dark stuff for some targets, which you can bring out through interaction, and even give 47 a few refreshingly good confrontations with them, that define the character perfectly.

This is exactly an effort to concentrate the best of old Hitman, and boy did it succeed. The controls to this day have lost part of their imsimminess comparatively to blood money, but the game is so packed full of stuff to do (they smuggle in more easter eggs than ever as well), it can barely be believed. But fans were not happy. By focussing mostly only on the peaks of previous games, „They lost the dark tone!“ fans cried out loud! So what do they do…

Well for one they god thanks are smart enough to not do absolution again, although that would‘ve been the closest comeback tonally. They decide to marry some old criminal setting with their place simulation, while heavily breathing life into these places through absolutely incredible environmental storytelling. Through what I‘d argue is some arbitrary limitation, they managed to create something even more incredible than 2016. I mean: They brought back drug cartel crime, city slum crime, and masked rich people. They even brought back the suburbs, although that originally was one level. And all this in more detail than the old games. Also the music, my god! Jesper Kyd did incredible work for Hitman back in the day, but now we have context AND environment depending music with touches of Kyd style inspiration and homages shining through.

Yet without a doubt the level with the best reception was Miami. The only level that had rather little to do with the style of the old games, and rather seemed like further evolving what can be done in Hitman. And still at this point many fans are yelling „They lost the dark tone!“.

So Hitman 3 feels to me like them saying: „Okay, we‘ll give more direct homages (with even some escalations to underline them), but go completely off the deep end in how dark this game can get. We‘ll make it darker than the originals.“ And they did it. They created a dystopian hellhole, and had in every level at least one extra murder by someone else going on, be it between targets, to a target or from a target. They even brought back biker gangs with perhaps the grittiest club in the series. And during that they still manage to bring in new and innovative stuff. And yet the game knows it can have its cake and eat it too. It brings in elusive targets to really show how additionally creative the team can be, when bounds are increasingly small.

Now Hitman is a game, where we can protect or fight for bruce lee, step into the dreams of Eminem, and kill Sean Bean, while the main story takes everything classic hitman gave its audiences and deepens and innovates on it to the point that it feels almost more like playing through ones childhood imagination of how Hitman feels like.

And yet some fans still complain from the mountains „They lost the dark tone!“. And I just don‘t get it anymore… Perhaps there is something to be said for wordless actions to leave more interpretations, and thusly that Hitman back then left more room to be filled by the imagination these fans might‘ve had, but really: This is something current Hitman also does through its dialogue. And the darkness and grittiness is even more so in new Hitman as I‘ve shown. Do you really miss the sex clubs and swearing as characterization from Absolution? It‘s the only thing I don‘t see represented in WOA… I just really reaaaally don‘t get it. So if you are one of these people, could you please tell me how?

Edit: Okay Meat King is still probably the most disgusting level. But that was even pushing the tone back then. Is Hitman for you really defined by so dark, that you literally cannot understand a word they say? Edit 1.1: I mean, how would this even work in todays engine, and expected social depth without losing its ethereality?

I have already done much meditation on what each of them does. This is not that, although if you want to you can leave one in the comments. You can find mine in my post history.

This is simply the question what you like most with these rounds. You can also add any stealth series like Tenchu. I‘m leaving them out, since I just can‘t really get into Tenchu and thus can‘t judge it. I‘m also leaving out Dishonored in the title since I just barely mention it, but I also thought with it some of the other points and you are invited to also just add this series to your comparison.

Round 1: Highest (stealth experience) peak you‘ve experienced. For this I think I‘ll have to go for the days I found the special version of the „the end“-boss in MGS3 duel>!, before finding that you can one shot headshot him with any sniper!<. Incredibly hard and punishing, the first time I finally managed it, the run was 27 minutes long. And it‘s just pure incredible tension. Trying to find him without him finding you. Jaws of Darkness in the The Black Parade fancampaign, the first time I played it (it was night) managed to completely captivate me, but by the end I didn‘t manage to play stealthily anymore, driven mad by the monstrosities.

Round 2: Quantity of Peak (stealth experiences). Man, Metal Gear has so many games that evolve from one general peak to another, but Hitman WOA alone has already soooo many maps, and variations of maps that heavily change the storytelling and tone, that on variation alone it blows MGS out of the water (at least for me, although I haven‘t played the entirety). Yet to think about the total series. Yet I still don‘t know if I can give the point to Hitman, since Thief has fan content. And boy, is that content good, varied, and absolutely massive. Hitman I feel has still more variance and official quality content than Thief, so some days I might give it the slight edge, but honestly I could also count Thiefs absolute consistency in what it delivers as the bonus, so really this is a tie.

Round 3: Single game with best throughline of Peak (stealth experience). Here we have one where Chaos Theory has to be mentioned. MGSV is also there for some people, Dishonored for others, but really I feel for stealth itself Chaos Theory, and Thief have to be it. Shoutouts also to Metal Gear 2. It‘s damn good and extremely stealth focussed. Hitman WOA I feel is really close, but through the speedrun friendliness (which is really a net positive to the moon!) it also can inspire trying the same thing again, and again giving rise to high frustration. I might between Thief and Chaos Theory even give it to Chaos Theory, since the navigational challenge really can turn a few gamers off, but for me that‘s not the case, so I‘ll give it a tie.

Round 4: Least interference by lows and mid. Personally I don‘t think Thief 4 has as much of presence, while thinking of Thief in comparison to Splinter Cell Conviction, Hitman Absolution, or MGSV (it ain‘t too bad at all, but I constantly want it to be something different). And for bad parts or systemic annoyances, I think Thief (especially the fanmissions) also stays relatively in front with Splinter Cell. So for me the point goes to Thief again.

Conclusion: I think for me Thief just generally is the best, but I‘m also a huge Thief stan. Tell me: What wins for you in these (+optionally your) rounds?

Thief shines because of its tension and immersion, which are both created by the dynamic rule enforcement of the stealth, as well as the atmosphere, which again sets itself together out of great audio design, narrative and lore, and visuals.

Now: Could in your opinion anything be done, to support this even further?

Here is what I come up with:

1. Enable a tick more NPC manipulation, and make quick uses of items available at a mechanical cost, so that we can have more functioning moments, where we heart poundingly hope AI doesn‘t turn around. This working more regularly would increase the tension, not decrease it.

Concretely I suggest stuff like: having the noise maker arrows create a bit sound cover, so that you may even walk slowly on marble.

For quick use mechanics I suggest:

- a smart lockpick item (AND hotkey, or extra button for wanting interaction with a lock), that can unlock any pickable door for you in always seven seconds, and are super rare items. With these the player can express their desperation while playing more, while the game still holds tension with these seven seconds.

- a quick/alterative use/throw of the elemental crystals instead of the long arrows, for short time effect. The fires would go on again ten seconds later after a water arrow quick throw; moss(-arrows still in this case) could only dim electrical lights by half until the heat burns through twenty seconds later; moss again could apply to your shoes for four (maybe five) steps only until it is used; a fire crystal could alternatively be used for shedding bright light for one minute; and gas could alternate to choking smoke, that‘s a little more broad in how wide its area of effect is. Aside from the last one, which turns very rare items yet more useful again, all of these are very trade off-y, and I feel they would also give good expression of desperation, and interesting tactical risk taking.

2. I would add breath as a more involved mechanic. You have a granular breath control which controls how much breath you regain, and breath as a more common resource. If your breath runs out, you exhale and inhale loudly, as breath fills up again (except is you are underwater). Everything has a breath cost by now, that can naturally be mitigated (or even nullified, depending on how open you breathe. Running, sneaking, climbing, aiming, fighting, hell even just being all need breath. While entities with a high fear factor are near you, have higher breath cost for everything. For the choke smoke, you‘ll have to hold your breath and have some safety goggles on, and while aiming, you hold your breath now to steady your aim like in Splinter Cell, instead of it just already being so itself. I feel this could add a whole new layer to every action, that is additionally very immersive and tense.

(Edit:

3. More controversially: Lock down (Edit 3:) escape sequences and make them more interesting. Often, when I get caught, I just run around seeing parts of the level I wanted to first find in stealth. Because of that, I suggest spawning guards at obvious connecting area pathways, that will block your way as they‘ll keep standing there while fighting you. At the same time I think escapes should be quite a bit shorter, since while you are running, you don‘t feel the tension of „How the hell can I avoid these guards?“.

)

(Edit 2: Some maybe again controversial stuff people might find interesting I leave untouched.

1. Not too much guard sensitivity. Guards still shouldn‘t be bothered too much that a torch went splash one meter next to them. They could maybe investigate a little (fifteen to twenty seconds), but they shouldn‘t directly go into high suspicion, because they saw a door open (as Splinter Cell does).
2. Guards also still should go back to their original patrol, and that rather quickly than slowly (one to two minutes of search/high suspicion max). They can have an extra animation and extra barks for being more alert on their patrol, but nothing more.

The reason I think this should stay is that Thief is about dealing with the guards in the hand placed status quo. My suggestions further up (except for breath) would make the suspicion, search, and escape phase more thought out, but Thief is still about that at its core. So I personally don‘t think it‘s a good idea to bring in ways that this status quo breaks more easily, or has problems returning after escaping successfully.)

What do you think? Have you got similar ideas?

Stealth games are incredibly broad in what they give for feelings at their best (while still in stealth). I‘ve alone counted these (and definitely feel encouraged to also add more from your favorite stealth games! For one I don‘t feel that I right now can describe the heights of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory that well):

1. „OK! Please don‘t let me be found!“-Tension (Thief)
2. „Haha! You can‘t find me!… And another one done in. Plrpt!“-Mischief (Arkham)
3. „Okay… In here now. Now what is going on here that I‘m not allowed to be here…“-Curiosity (Hitman)
4. (After close hitting danger from someone) „Alright: You earned this! You will not enjoy being the target of my stealth action.“-Revenge (Hunter and Hunted in Hitman Contracts, Hypothetical Thief mission, where you sack the place of someone who almost got you))
5. „Well then: Will I be able to do this…?“-Curiosity and Improvisation (MGS-series but really all stealth games)

What I find interesting is that only half of these are felt or expressed through action (or rather action possibility space on your part). Exploration-curiosity and tension mainly are a result of observation space (which honestly isn‘t that surprising: Curiosity is literally wanting to know more about something, and tension happens through a lack off hard knowledge, craving for more clarity.) I guess this is why I often find MGSV to be lacking. These are things I really enjoy in games in general, and arguably even Dark Souls has that stealth more than MGSV. (MGS3 though has more of it with multiple incomplete intel gadgets, and enemies that blend into the environment as you do. Hell: Even Metal Gear 2 has more of this with stuff like the interesting crew quarters and varied visuals/gameplay sections for exploration, and really everything hinging on complicated enemy patrol routes which gives the „Will I be able to do this?“ more leaning towards tension and what the enemy is doing as well.) But I guess trying to grade the MG games that way is pretty non sensical, since this type of stealth requires incredibly good vibes, and puts the focus firmly on environmental storytelling, which is something Kojima Productions never really was enamored with.

No. The strength of MGS lies in the constant active part (which is funny, since it is described so fervently as a game you rather watch than play thanks to the cutscenes). And I can also see how it probably can be quite strange feeling, playing these games, seeking more, and then finding more games that want you to wait, and soak it in very regularly. On the other hand it means that waiting in MGS (which since it‚s a stealth game is bound to happen) becomes whatever much more quickly than other stealth games, since there isn‘t environmental storytelling you can take in.

It‘s why in my estimation Metal Gear even now is one of the most well known franchises in gaming, while Thief, though incredibly well known and beloved under devs, us stealth fans, and imsim fans, is pretty unknown beyond.

Finally I hope to see more stuff like the revenge feeling I described. Narrative taking what you know and through good encounter design creating short lasting new experiences.

But yeah: What do you like more? Have you got more when-stealth-is-at-its-highpoint- feelings, and based on them, is there another, or a different categorization than player driving vs player driven? I‘d love to hear it.

Thanks for reading… 🙂

I‘ve really been thinking about this. First off: I like Nolan. I find Oppenheimer to be beautiful! Out of the ones I saw, Tenet was the only one, where I felt that the movie was more complicated and indecipherable than it was worth.

I find that Nolans strength is a close look at one character, where we gradually explore the important aspects of that character, in a non linear way, with interesting concepts to plotwise explain that non linearity, that also help us find the right angle to read the movie.

Now, he‘s making a movie about the odyssey, and I can‘t decipher why, when there‘s another character in greek myth that would fit perfectly for his style. Is Odyssee really such a „nolian“ story? For me it seems more similar to the hobbit with an adventurer with a home drive, and a very basic episodic structure, that doesn‘t really have any need to be tampered with: It‘s part of the main appeal.

Now: There is a story in greek mythos, where the main character does disturbing things, and a self fulfilling prophecy is involved (lending already itself to an already non linear story). Yep! I think Nolan would be wise to rather make a movie about the original mother fucker: Oedipus.

So: Am I just not getting something here? If you, dear reader see something in Nolans narrative strengths, that lend themselves to the Odyssee over other greek myths, please feel invited to comment!