u/TeaAdorable5219

I get not everything in the manga needs to be make sense but this one is one of the most blatant things. Why is Imu acknowledging he should have killed Gabban if he knew he was going to get that much stronger from god valley when he never encounters Gabban at all in god valley? By the time Gabban went to get Garp, Saturn had already left the island. This makes even less sense considering outside of Rocks, Imu let every single person who attacked him not only live but become a top tier. One of them worked for his own government and he didn’t kill Garp. We know a previous admiral was also killed for trying to learn too much.

I see people try to argue this is another example of why WB was the strongest but isn’t it because of all yonkos, he was shown to have the biggest fleet and war with him would be the most difficult?

People hated on kaido but if you have read the story without trying to make an agenda, you realize he has faced the strongest version of Luffy so far

After Luffy got one shotted in act 1, he specifically learned ryo to fight Kaido and bypass his defense. Even after learning it, when Kaido beat him the first time, Kaido himself said it. You learned ryo and did not use it properly. This was after using it several times to hurt Kaido. Luffy has yet to replicate any of these feats since Wano because he became too overconfident in his devil fruit

This is even more clear when Luffy went to gear 5 for Lucci who he should have had no issues beating in base. No matter what anyone says, Luffy in base is still a Yonko character for the simple fact he was able to sky split with Kaido. By choosing to over rely on his devil fruit, he put himself in harm way because of his durability. Even against Kizaru, when he knocked down Kizaru, he still does not use it and instead chooses to do a normal regular attack which is why had it been a 1v1, Kizaru could have killed him

Then we see this again in Elbaph when imu looks away, he still does not use ryo. Luffy best haki feat up to date have all been against kaido. Not bad for a “rumor” man huh

People were hating on kaido for saying this but his statement about haki has shown to be true. Gabban slightly outperforming luffy has nothing to do with him being stronger than luffy. That’s not logical. Luffy tried fighting someone with superior abilities with him by being overly reliant on his devil fruit instead of haki. It was the same thing against Katakuri. Luffy was never going to win that battle with imu because has mastered his fruit for centuries. Gabban was able to do it by using all of his haki to force imu into being defensive. Luffy next power up is simply going to be fully utilizing his haki in the midst of battle which will only unlock the insane potential of his fruit

The way this chapter was overhyped, you would assume Gabban was going blow for blow with imu or something

People have been hating on Luffy the last few chapters but why don’t we acknowledge Imu had a personal vendetta against Luffy from the moment he looked at Luffy. We all know Imu hated joyboy. We even saw him scream joyboy against Loki. he said it himself, Luffy was bringing back old memories of joyboy when he was in gear 5. Even Gabban mentioned it, he told imu you really want to kill him because he reminds you of joyboy. Unlike Loki or Gabban, imu was the most serious against Luffy, and he wanted to torture Luffy up until died himself

I see everyone on this sub saying this chapter upscales old gen and that even the wings of the Pirate king are above Kaido. But are we going to ignore for the first half of the chapter, Imu was trying to figure out who Gabban was? Dude legit said "Who are you" and "What do you know about MU". Then When Gabban says he wants to fulfill the wishes of his captain, Imu asks him "Who is your captain". This literally shows Imu did not care about Roger for the entirety of his journey and never went after Roger. Because had he done so, he would have known who Gabban was. After Imu realized Gabban was on Roger's crew, he tries to kill Luffy first and doesn't even go after Gabban. And the moment Imu focuses on Gabban, he finishes the fight easily

This is really what y'all want to use to argue Old gen upscale??

People keep using this panel to argue Shamrock was stronger than Shanks when they were younger and it’s just not true. The only way you can believe this is if you blatantly choose to ignore Oda’s theme that he has established as far back as Arlong park. Certain races straight up think they’re naturally better than other ones

Garling from his first appearance showed that he thinks any celestial who protects a human is a scum. Every celestial believes they’re superior to every other race. We also saw this with the fishman back in Arlong park where they straight up do not believe humans can beat them. We also in Wano, Queen did not think Zoro could beat King because King was a lunarian

Garling believing Shamrock was stronger is natural. Shamrock grew up on the holy land and had the seal. However, Oda has shown us that even with the seal, none of the holy knights are anything special until imu comes in to save them and give them even more powerups. For example, Garling who had the strongest portrayal as a holy knight was delusional enough to think they could stop the pirates. Then we proceed to see all of them lose easily. This one panel does not prove Shamrock was stronger than Shanks especially when you consider Shamrock had the seal give him a boost but Shanks was actively seeing top tiers clash with each other so he knew how to get stronger

I see a lot of people say Sengoku was relative to Garp strength wise and I simply have to disagree. Oda has a lot of statements made then contradict it. Usually when a statement is true, he will show it. The idea behind Sengoku being relative to Garp is just not as supported.

Take Marineford, every time Whitebeard spoke of Sengoku, he spoke of how cunning he is which would indicate Sengoku was a better strategist. But with Garp, he said, don’t be scared, he’s an old weak soldier now. Whitebeard is specifically speaking of Garp strength.

The entire flashback showed Garp was the one fighting the top tiers and chasing both Rocks/Whitebeard. Garp was the one who was called to go to God valley, not Sengoku. Even when you look at their portrayal in marineford. Garp absolutely blitz Marco like he was nothing and Sengoku couldn’t do the same to pre time skip Luffy.

I keep seeing Kizaru held back against Luffy and him feeding Luffy shows he could have beaten him and it’s simply not true. While Kizaru did have a mental conflict, he tried to finish his mission as quick as possible

1. Saturn told Kizaru to just leap over sentomaru and go to vegapunk. Despite us Knowing sentomaru and kizaru also had a bond, Kizaru went to fight him and defeated pretty quickly without showing any remorse
2. Compare this to Garp in marineford right before Luffy makes it to Ace. Garp said you have to beat me and right before he punches Luffy, we see him have a flashback of both young Luffy/Ace and proceeds to pull back his punches to let Luffy hit him. We even see Sengoku say “So you”re a father before a navy officer”. we also saw multiple chapters before garp blitz Marco like it was nothing so we know he could have done it to Luffy
3. Kizaru sent Luffy flying through the barrier which should have killed him. Then we also saw Kizaru break into the room vegapunk was in prepared to kill him until Gear 5 Luffy showed up. Why would Kizaru try to kill luffy as soon as he can knowing he was the only one on the island who could stop him?

4)Instead of trying to fight Luffy which would have brought vegapunk Time to escape but instead, he creates clones of himself to distract Luffy while he tried to go after vegapunk again. We also see while vegapunk tries to escape, Kizaru literally shoots beams at him and says I can’t let you do that

Kizaru tries to kill Vegapunk several times and tried to do it as quickly as he could. His mental handicap didn’t start until after Luffy knocked him out and he started processing that he was really going to kill his best friend. Even then he still did it. Trying to use this to argue Kizaru is stronger than Luffy makes no sense because outside of the one hit on Luffy, he did not actively try to engage against Luffy in a fight. The moment that he did, Luffy knocked him out. Trying to say Kizaru let him makes no sense because Kizaru literally tried killing Luffy

I see a lot of people try to scale Sengoku as relative to Garp because of the statement from Roger but it’s just not true. Oda has repeatedly portrayed Garp as the stronger fighter while Sengoku being the mastermind

Kong specifically called Garp to go to god valley and the navy members who were there all said they were saved even though Sengoku was not there. We saw garp get involved in god valley and the funniest thing is when garp started seeing everything happening, he called Sengoku to ask him if he knew about it.

Even when you go to marineford, Whitebeard calls Garp a soldier after he punches Marco. While when Luffy tells him about what he heard, he said let’s calm down as Sengoku wouldn’t let this information get out without a plan. Sengoku has always been the brain of the operation with Garp being the brawn. In terms of fighting though, Garp has by far a better portrayal

I still see people scaling Garling higher than admirals and on equal tiers as yonkos and we need to stop this. It’s clear Oda says stuff to hype up characters being introduced in the story but then when it’s time to show them in the story, it does not happen. Outside of Imu, none of the elders or holy knights have been shown as insanely strong characters outside of having regen. They had no reason to because none of them were fighting top tiers to get stronger. The only one that did was Imu when he fought Joyboy which is why he’s insanely strong. The most the holy knights ever do is literally kill civilians

Garling himself was saying have the navy protect the celestials and the holy knights will stop the pirates. Yet we saw, none of them were able to keep up with any pirate on God valley. Then we saw how Garp was moving in God valley which is the complete opposite of Garling. I can’t see why it would be different for Shamrock. Rayleigh said himself when he trained luffy, you get stronger as you fight stronger people. Who would Shamrock have fought that even comes close to the people shanks fought? Shamrock is not as strong as Shanks and is more than likely not as strong as the original admirals

I saw a recent post saying who was the weakest between Loki, Kaido, Shanks and Mihawk. People were saying its kaido because since Mihawk has the WSS title, he is above shanks who is above Kaido and that is an idiotic logic.

Mihawk/Shanks had their duels before the great pirate era and before Shanks lost his arm. Then when we get the bounty of Mihawk which states he has greater sword skills than Shanks. But the navy would only know this if they're referring to the duels they had when both Shanks and Mihawk were younger. However, from the moment Shanks lost his arm, here are the feats from both.

Shanks: beat loki, Sky split with Whitebeard, Clashed with Kaido which Kaido listed him as one of the 5 people who could fight a deadly battle with him, destroyed the entire kidd pirates and nullified an admiral completely out of his form

Mihawk: beats jinbei, stale mate vista and could not beat a pre time skip luffy.

Additionally, we saw Rayleigh said your haki will get better as you fight stronger opponents. So why do y'all think Shanks couldn't have gotten stronger than Mihawk given he went on to fight stronger opponents than the ones Mihawk faced.

Also saying Mihawk still having his title does not make him stronger. Shanks never went on to fight Mihawk and they wouldn't just give someone else the title. Its the same reason Whitebeard was still WSM at marineford despite clearly being the weakest yonko at that point of time

I get people are skeptical of Shanks beating Loki fairly because they would have to question their rankings but it makes sense based on the story. During Loki vs Imu, when Loki turns into a dragon, we see him say He is too big to keep track of him properly. Shanks is one of the fastest of the verse and has shown he doesn't take attacks just to prove a point. Him beating Loki does not necessarily indicate he is stronger. It simply means he is a terrible matchup for Loki. We saw the same for Oden vs Kaido. Oden speed was giving Kaido's dragon form issues which probably forced him to develop hybrid.

At the same time, Loki being able to beat Harald with the covenant makes sense because Harald is not fast and is a stationary fighter. Loki if I am not mistaken is also much bigger than Harald and you add a legendary devil fruit, it makes sense why Loki beats Harald. Loki is simply a terrible matchup for Harald. Meanwhile, we saw how Harald was easily handling both Shanks/Gabban. This is because Harald is smaller than Loki which would mean he isn't as slow and is able to keep up with faster characters. Its the same reason he could fight Rocks. You can't use multiple fights to scale characters because different matchups will give the characters different advantages.

Post Shanks clash Whitebeard is the perfect example of why you can't scale strictly off titles & performance is needed as well. Whitebeard was still being labeled as the WSM but that's strictly off the reputation he had and no one knowing that his health had gone down. Oda supports this several times.

Conqueror's Haki - The first example his health went down considerably was conqueror's haki. When he clashed with Shanks, we saw the sky split which indicates both Shanks/Whitebeard were supreme conquerors. Right when Ace is about to be executed, Whitebeard was not close to Ace, and he says there is nothing I could do. Whitebeard at that point knew what Conqueror was and this would indicate he tried to use which it failed. Even if people try to say Haki wasn't a finished concept, we literally see Luffy use Conqueror unknowingly in that same chapter which Whitebeard recognized instantly and is in disbelief.

Observation Haki - This is by far the easiest one to fully show why Whitebeard at that point was the weakest yonko and arguably no longer a yonko. When Squard stabs him, we see several of his enemies in shock. Crocodile who we know lost to whitebeard says specifically, you weren't this weak when you defeated me. Sengoku who was part of his generation was in disbelief Whitebeard was stabbed. Marco, who was his first commander, says himself, Whitebeard should have been able to block it even if it was an ally unless his health got worse. I see some people say you can lose your focus which is true. But in the situations we have seen it, Luffy vs Katakuri, Luffy vs Kaido, Kaido vs Oden, they all have happened during fighting. When Whitebeard was speaking to Squard, they were having a 1 on 1 conversation. We also saw several times when Ace tried to kill Whitebeard while he was sleeping or not paying attention, it never worked

Armament - This one was during the fight with Aokiji. We see Whitebeard slash Aokiji with his weapon and it didn't do anything as he regenerated like it was nothing. The very next 4 panels, we see Jozu punch Aokiji which makes Aokiji bleed. Oda showed several times how Whitebeard simply was not at his level that people thought of anymore but he was still a monster. Especially with the fact they said he has the power to destroy the world, that has strictly to do with the Gura-Gura which is one of the most destructive fruits in the verse. Even Blackbeard now has the power to destroy the world with that fruit.

At the end of the day, Whitebeard was without a doubt the weakest out of the 4 yonkos. Any of the other 3 would have easily defeated Marineford Whitebeard and it shows based on how strong they were at that point.

I see people scale Zoro's AP much higher than it is because they believe he hurt King when the flames on King back were on which is simply not true. Read chapter 1035 again, Zoro was doing no damage to King and he realized he had to figure out how to hurt him or Enma would drain his haki. The first time we see Zoro actually hurt King, his flames are not on which helped him understand how his powers worked. We specifically see him say, "He sped up" which he knew that was the only time he could attack which he did. This has more to do with Zoro's battle IQ.

Also, people saying well why didn't King just keep his flames on. In the exact same chapter, King explains how he was close to his limit which means he needed to end the fight. The best way for him to do was to turn off his flame which allows him to be much faster to kill Zoro which Zoro takes advantage of. Also, Zoro again says this in Egghead when they fought the seraphims. He said they're practically invincible with the flames on.