u/Will564339

A little while back I saw an ENTP talking about an ex partner of theirs, and they described her by saying this:

"She was like a calm pond in a mystical forest."

When I read that, it really resonated with me, because it's kind of how I view myself and I get the impression it's how others view me too.

I know I've had people say I'm a calming presence, and that I'm chilled out and relaxed. I've had people tell me that I help put them at ease and make people feel comfortable.

I of course get excited and angry and everything else just like anyone, but compared to most people I think even those emotions are more toned down. I'm happiest when I'm content, and even the things that excite me tend to be more in reaching that level of peaceful bliss.

Of course, some people tend to find this boring. And it's definitely true that people close to me love seeing my weird, quirky goofy side.

But ultimately that calmness is kind of the core of who I am. And I was curious if this applied to other ISFJs too.

It feels like it can be hard to find ISFJs who are major villains in stories/media, so it was satisfying to find one who I think has a lot of ISFJs traits turned evil, especially when you see how the character had a choice.

It's from a somewhat obscure video game, a JPRG called Live A Live. I don't know the chances that anyone here as played it, but I will say that if you feel like you'll ever have any interest, I am going to post MAJOR SPOILERS to the game.

So this is the spoiler warning.

The character's name is Oersted. He's a knight in the middle ages. I'll try to keep the backstory fairly short.

He spends his whole life training to become the best knight, always doing his rightful duty. Eventually he enters into a tournament to marry the king's daughter, and ends up beating his best friend to do so. While initially she only marries him because she has to, they grow to love each other.

A demon takes her away. He goes to hunt down the demon with his best friend and a few others to save her in the demon's cave, but part of the cave collapses on his best friend.

Back at the castle, Oersted sees the demon and tries to kill it. But he ends up killing the king by mistake, since the demon made the king look like itself. The whole kingdom who once viewed him as a hero now hates him and views him as a villain.

He then tries to go back to save the princess. But it turns out his best friend is there, faked his death, and had taken on the role of the demon ever since he won the tournament. His best friend betrayed him and ruined his life, making him kill the king. He then kills his best friend, and finds the princess still alive. But, his best friend had controlled her and tricked her into loving him instead, so when she finds out Oersted killed him, she views him as a villain too and kills herself.

So in total despair, Oersted then decides to become the demon just like his best friend did. He embraces hate, and uses it not only to kill everyone in his own kingdom, but he actually travels through time to create other villains of hatred that cause suffering and evil in those eras too.

Most people in the fandom who know about MBTI type him as ISFJ. And he has so many of those traits.

His last speech after the princess dies is really telling:

"Naught remains. Alone. Utterly alone. Cast out. Unloved. Outside the grace of gods.

Did I not do ALL that was asked? Did I not serve and seek my fair and just reward?!

And for my deeds, they damn me. Name me, demon.

And who am I to deny it? Demon, then!

Renouncing former ties and titles. And in their place, I claim...Odio! (Hate)"

What's really really fascinating me to is how people in the fandom are so split on him. Some find him tragic and sympathize with him, completely understanding why he did what he did. Others think he truly is a villain because he chose evil and hatred when he didn't have to. And actually, the characters in the game are also split.

So I think it's cool how even an evil ISFJ character can be complex and get sympathy.

But the line "Did I not serve and seek my fair and just reward?" is a huge line that shows how ISFJs can become hate filled and evil.

Oersted wanted to follow the rules, do what he was supposed to, and get a reward out of it. I think that's something ISFJs can relate to.

But when things don't go as planned, and we get rejected...it's tempting to become cynical, view others as evil, and deciding they deserve our anger and hate.

Oersted’s tragedy is not that he secretly wanted power all along. It is that everything he trusted collapses. His best friend betrays him. His kingdom turns against him. The person he loves rejects him. The heroic role he built his identity around becomes inverted, and everyone starts seeing him as a monster.

For an ISFJ, I think that kind of collapse would be especially devastating. ISFJs often build so much of ourselves around trust, duty, care, memory, and belonging. We want to be reliable and good and for our devotion to mean something. We may not ask for constant praise, but we deeply want their sincerity to be seen and understood.

Oersted is terrifying because his villainy comes from those same traits being poisoned.

His loyalty becomes resentment, thinking he gave everything, and this is how he was repaid. His duty becomes bitterness, and he thinks he did what I was supposed to do, and it meant nothing. His memory becomes torment, and he cannot let go of every betrayal, humiliation, and loss. His desire to be trusted becomes despair. If everyone sees him as a demon, then he might as well become one.”

His Fe-like need for belonging and recognition turns inside out. Instead of wanting harmony with people, he condemns them. Instead of wanting to serve the world, he decides the world is unworthy of service. Instead of using his pain to protect others from suffering, he uses his suffering as proof that humanity deserves hatred.

He's a villain because his ISFJ qualities are broken, betrayed, and twisted into their darkest form.

I think that's why a lot find him so tragic. He represents the fear of being completely misunderstood after trying so hard to be good. He is the nightmare version of “I gave my whole heart, and nobody saw it.”

But the story also pushes back against him. Other characters have suffered too, but they choose love, kindness, mercy, courage, trust, and humility instead of hatred. That is what makes Oersted’s fall feel meaningful rather than just edgy. His pain is real, but his conclusion is wrong.

That makes him really fascinating. I love seeing so many people who aren't into MBTI and don't know anything about ISFJs talk about him so much. He's a warning about what happens when an ISFJ heart breaks and chooses hatred instead of healing.

Recently I remembered a book that I hadn't read in many many years...a kid's book that I loved when I was younger (it's called Rowan of Rin by Emily Rodda in case anyone was curious). The last time I read it I didn't even know about the MBTI. And reading it again really hit me emotionally in so many ways...I felt so sad at times but also deeply emotionally content and satisfied at the happier parts of it. I've always been super connected to things from my childhood and I think they hit me deeper than most people I talk to who prefer more "adult" things.

And the more I think about it the more I think the main character, a young boy, is an ISFJ. And he's overrun by fear and shame, and so much of the book is about him being courageous...but he does it in a very gentle, tender way that just speaks to me in a way that most things about courage don't.

What I'm going to say I can only say for certain is true for me, I can't apply it to all ISFJs. But I really do think me being an ISFJ contributes to it. So even though I'm speaking pretty broadly, I'm not sure how it translates to other ISFJs.

What I keep coming back to is what motivates me to be courageous in times of fear the most. It's not in the sense of duty and responsibility that it feels like STJs seem to feel (just doing the right thing) or even the wider more general "moral" reasons that it feels like a lot of NFs or Fi users feel.

Instead, it boils down to this idea: Someone I love needs me and is counting on me.

I think that taps into the idea of ISFJs being the "Defender". I think it's when our love for those we care about is stronger than the fear that we feel.

And I think what happens sometimes is we undersell our abilities. Like we think we're not needed or don't recognize our strength and our power to do things for those we love. We don't always realize how what we can do really does matter to those closest to us, and we can use that as a motivator to do things that are hard.

But that doesn't have to come through in some glorious or ego serving way. It can be gentle and caring. It can be steadfast and consistent.

There's so much more I could say about it. But there's just something about that localized, Si/Fe sense of using that form of love to do things that scare us that really spoke to me a lot, and it's something that I've been thinking about these past few days.

One thing that I've thought about lately is how I think about courage, particularly when it comes to sticking to my values when I'm scared about something. Basically trying to do what I believe is right even when it's hard.

I know that like so many things it goes way beyond type...there are some things about courage that's universal to all people, and some things that are individual to each person. So this is mostly out of interest and fun.

But keeping that in mind...do you think courage tend to show up in your type in a particular way? What kinds of things might motivate different types to be courageous? Are there certain areas that different types tend to gravitate towards when they show courage?

I could go into tons of detail about it for me both as a person and as an ISFJ, but I'll just mention a small bit of it that I think is true. I think for ISFJs, courage and morality often begins close to home, and as we grow, we can work on expanding it out further from there. Pretty much our Si makes us focus on our immediate circle, and it can be much more challenging for us to extend it further and further out...like so many other things in our lives.

Zidane is not only my favorite Final Fantasy character, he’s one of my favorite characaters of any type of media ever. And the “You’re Not Alone” sequence may be my favorite scene in any video game ever. I could go into detail why, but it always gives me chills and sometimes makes me cry in a really deep, positive way.

Many years ago I listened to a version that had lyrics, but they sounded like they were from either Dagger’s perspective or Zidane’s friends’ perspective. But I always wanted the lyrics to focus on his.

so a few years ago I found this version someoen wrote and sang from his point of view.

I’ll say I’m not crazy about the vocals.

But the lyrics give me major chills in that magical way. They put into words what the sogn and scene have always made me feel. They make me love Zidane even more. It’s exactly how I’ve always envisioned him in that moment. I could explain it in more detail but that would make this really long. So I’ll just mention a few of the lyrics that hit me the hardest.

“In my deepest being, there are wicked and scary things,

I found out I’m not the good guy you all see.”

”So that’s who I am, just a broken and twisted man.”

”Go then, go away, you’d be out of your mind to stay

I am bound to be the worst monster you’ve ever seen.”

“I’m the weakest link, I could cause the whole ship to sink.”

”I might break your heart, breaking things is my special art,

Go now while you can, walk away and say goodbye.”

”With my faults laid bare, somehow still, you are standing there, I thought you’d be long gone,

You stay all the while, through my dark with your bold smile, solid like a stone.”

”When my demons show, you stay close, you refuse to go, I feel it in my bones,

Showing me the way, ‘Take my hand’ I can hear you say, ’Friend, you’re not alone!’”

I watched a video yesterday about the idea of holding space. It was interesting because it went through it in a way I hadn't thought about as much before.

For a long time we've heard about the idea of "fixing" a problem vs. offering support, and how trying to fix someone's problem when they just want support very often isn't beneficial to them.

But this video was saying how validating someone can also have a similar effect. The idea of just saying things like "Oh wow, that sounds so hard." or "you're right, you should be angry." It might be helpful, but what it often does is almost automatically removes the negative emotion when the person may not really want that. And the person might even feel like you're acting like a therapist.

The idea is that in both cases, you're trying to remove the discomfort of the negative emotion because you can't really handle it. So you're trying to move on past from it and therefore making the other person do so as well.

The idea of holding space is moreso just listening, and almost letting them transfer some of their emotion to you. Kind of like empathizing, but in a way where you're just present with someone. Like you're letting them fully experience their negative emotion and you're feeling it with them. You're not really pushing them one way or another.

And it said that a good sign for when you've done this enough is when you no longer feel their negative emotion and you start feeling kind of "bored" almost. Then you know that if they keep on going it will just kind of loop forever. So at that point you can reflect back what they said, and then kind of ask them some questions to guide them...like what are you thinking, or how do you think you can approach this?

It's not to say that validating can't be the right choice. But it was just interesting to me to hear more about the idea of holding space for someone, and how we can have a hard time doing it because of our own emotions.

Still something I'm thinking about. But I did find it an interesting thing to consider if nothing else.

I'm wondering how the kindness of Fi users may look different than the kindness of Fe users.

A few caveats just to get out of the way. Being very general here. I know it will vary a lot from type to type and person to person.

Second, I know there's a lot they have in common, and people can feel free to share that too. Any person can be kind, and any person can work to be kinder.

But as a whole, I'm curious as to how it may play out differently. What comes easier to Fi users and what comes easier to Fe users.

I like to think of heroes and how either their motivations or their actions might vary in different types.

This may not be particularly deep. I'm also focusing on friendships and family relationships more than romantic ones, though there is some crossover into those too.

I also think this might be a bigger issue for men than it is for women. I know it is for me as a man. It can be true for anyone though.

For me, it's tough how even when we feel this really deep positive feeling of connection, like in a serious way....it's hard to sustain it without feeling awkward and needing some relief from it.

Basically, I feel things pretty deeply, but don't express them out of fear of being too much for someone...being sappy or sentimental. Feeling like I have to brace it..make it sound cool, or act like it's not that serious, find a way to make a joke about it.

Part of the issue is both people have to be in the right mindset, even for a positive emotion.

I think about like when I've gotten a nice card from people. I have time to read it on my own, and experience the feelings when I'm ready.

Or I think about family sitcoms. There are the sentimental moments, but balanced out with jokes. And we can process the sentimental moments on our own time.

But even when it's mutual, and people experience that heartfelt emotion together...even though it's a wonderful emotion...it's like we don't have the ability to sustain any serious emotional feeling, even when it's really positive.

I guess part of it is we want to be able to feel relaxed and safe. To be able to joke with someone and have fun. To be able to just enjoy presence without heavy emotion.

It's just interesting to me how my mind can sustain a deep sense of bliss and relaxation and calmness alone. But feeling a deep heartfelt emotion is hard to sustain.

It's like how sometimes it's hard to say we love each other.

While driving to work today, while at a stop light, I remembered something I thought as a kid.

The traffic lights (particularly the hanging ones with just three lights) look like faces, where the top light is the eye(s), the middle is the nose, and the bottom is the mouth.

Red lights look like a face that's has it's eyes wide open and is worried, like telling you "Oh no, STOP!!!"

Yellow lights look like one with its nose lit up kind of like a clown. As a kid they reminded me of Beaker from Muppets for some reason, I guess because of the nose. Like it's saying "Uh oh, Warning!"

And green lights look like s face wearing sunglasses with a chilled out grin, like cooly saying "Yeah, go right ahead." Almost reminded me some kind of jazz singer.

This is something I always thought as a kid but I've never directly told anyone. I have to imagine at least some other people thought the same thing in some kind of different form.

A long time ago I learned that for me, gratitude was only effective if I can feel it without guilt. There are a number of ways to do this, but for me it‘s always been important.

It doesn’t mean that gratitude can’t help motivate us to help those who are less fortunate in some way.

But the other thing for me is that I’ve always found gratitude to be most helpful to me when it’s very personal and really coming from my heart…not forced or doing it out of obligation or like I’m ”supposed” to. It feels more special and uplifting when it really feels like it’s shaped for me.

I do feel gratitude for things like food, family, friends, shelter, safety, health..all of the things that many of us feel gratitude for. And I can certainly increase my gratitude for those things through things like practice, journaling, meditation, thinking about not having him or others that don’t have them.

But even then, sometimes it feels forced. like I have to work at it. it doesn’t feel special.

What makes gratitude really hit me deep in my soul is when it flows through me. When it feels like it fits me for…me.

this happened today when I went out for a walk on a beautiful day. it was quiet and peaceful, and evey bit of nature I looked at felt magical and special. like I was connected to it and seeing the wonder in it. Just basic things like trees, grass, animals, clouds, the sun, the breeze..things I had seen plenty of times before.

I not only felt very grateful for them, but I felt grateful that something so simple and abundant could give me so much joy in a way I’m not sure everyone else could feel. and it felt like a special moemnt tuned just for me…like no one was was in that exact place at that exact time.

It made all of the other things I could feel grateful for feel more natural…grateful I had legs to walk and eyes to witness it. Grateful I could enjoy it because of my food and shelter and loved ones.

My gratitude felt natural and authentic, like I didn’t even have to try. Not gratitude I was making myself feel out of discipline.

It just hit really different today.

I have friends who are pretty passionate about some of their beliefs.

So one thing I enjoy the most is seeing times when they deal with cognitive dissonance about something, come to realize there's some kind of uncomfortable truth that was different than what they thought...and then realized they were wrong and made an adjustment with their thinking.

It lets me know they're not just parroting the same beliefs, living in echo chambers, and just believing what makes them feel good.

I have tons of examples of where this has happened to me (meaning cases where I found out about something where I was wrong and worked through it), but that would make this post really long. I'm curious to hear from others any times you can remember dealing with something like that or still currently are.

Are there any topics that give you uncomfortable cognitive dissonance? Anything you've come to learn that makes you uncomfortable because you know it's true but goes against some general beliefs you have? Any big things you've changed your mind on because you learned something new?

There are a few topics that I used to think were more of an "ISFJ thing" a while ago, but I've watched some videos talking about how they're universal in humans, so I was curious to see how they played out in other types.

The first is negativity bias. Basically that the negative things stand out or stick with us more, coming from an older survival instinct.

I even watched one video that says even when we imagine pain, if vivid enough,it can have the overall same effect on our brain as real pain...but the same thing doesn't hold true for pleasure.

A few ways I saw this illustrated. The first was with investing. That even though it's more mathematically sound, the idea that you can lose money in the short term can make people not want to do it.

Or even something as simple as if you flip a coin, if you pick wrong you lose $50 but if you're right you get $55, a lot of people won't risk it.

The second is not being comfortable with uncertainty. That we will make an assumption about something, sometimes good or sometimes bad, rather than leaving it up in the air.

And when combined with our negativity bias, we'll imagine bad things happening and assume they're true, even if they're only in our minds.

For me as an ISFJ, this results in me having a tendency to play things safe and not take risks. My mind prefers the structure of the known, so I'll tend to keep things "safe" even if they're not optimal, instead of trying to venture out to improve them. I'll also stress myself out too much by trying to plan for the worst case scenario that may never appear.

I guess I'm trying to figure out which of these tendencies are more unique to me, how much are my own tendencies due to type, and how much are more general/universal for most humans.

I'm wondering if my mind focuses on the details and interpretations of it that apply to me. So I'm curious to see how this works differently for people of other types.

This seems to be one the biggest topics I hear everyone talk about. It's part of the human experience.

When someone has a problem or is venting about something to someone else, the issue is that pops up is sometimes they just want someone to listen and validate and support them, but the person they're talking to wants to offer solutions.

I could go on forever about this, there are so many angles to it. I think the general takeaway is that it's best for the two people to decide beforehand whether the person with the problem wants support or advice (or some combination of both), and if the person listening is able to offer it, they should. Otherwise, the first person shouldn't talk about it.

Some people have claimed there's a gender component to this...men are more likely to want to solve the problem, women are more likely to offer or want support. I'm still not sure if this is accurate or not, I could see it either way. Clearly both genders have people that do both, and the same person probably does both themselves...so we're just talking about general patterns here.

I could see a cultural argument for the gender component at least playing a part, but it's hard to say.

Years ago on an MBTI forum people would sometimes write it off to a feeling type/thinking type thing. I feel like there's something there, but I'm not sure how it plays out with the cognitive functions.

Obviously type doesn't define us and all of us are capable of being in all of these situations. But as an ISFJ male, I find myself in a weird mix....sometimes I'm really good at listening and holding space, other times I always want to jump in with problem solving or advice.

So I'm just curious to hear how people think this is related to MBTI, if at all.

So I imagine all of us vastly prefer figuring out puzzles ourselves.

For me, it almost goes deeper than that. When I figure out a puzzle, particularly a tough one, it feels like it’s MINE. Like I have a personal attachment to it. It’s like I’m taking ownership of it.

But when I look up the answer, then it just feels like a random one. Like it belongs to everyone else.

it’s tricky though, because you never know how reasonable a puzzle is. Sometimes I’m stuck for a very long time and when I finally give in and look it up, I think I just about never would have I figured it out. So I saved myself a ton of time and energy.

But I’m generally pretty patient. What I like about point and click games is they let you take your time in a relaxed way…really let you drink in the game instead of constant fighting or pressing buttons. You can look at the scenery, listen to the music, have conversations with characters..get lost in the world.

It can be hard to determine what that sweet spot is for a puzzle..just hard enough that you feel like you earned it but not so hard you get tired of it,

I also prefer it when it makes sense and I used logic to figure it out instead of just random clicking. Of course, Sometimes I use my ”brute force” method if just clicking every item on every clickable background choice. Not as satisfying, but at least it works sometimes.

And then there’s the puzzle cascade…where you spend hours to figure out one, but thrn immediately get like five more in a row.

It can also be fun playing with someone else…you don’t get that same ownership but you get the communal experience in return.

I’m not quite sure how I feel about hints. They do take away from the ownership, but at least they don’t ruin it.

All of this is referring to basic puzzles, like clicking items on items or using actions on things. I’m not talking about logic/math puzzles like Towers of Hanoi or sliding grid puzzles.

Just wanted to share and see if anyone else had any thoughts about what goes through your mind as you play these awesome games!