u/eli_311

הייתה לי שיחה עם חייל שלי שהוא דתי על צניעות בלבוש, ואני באמת מנסה להבין את הנושא לעומק, לא ממקום של לזלזל בדת או לנסות "לתפוס" מישהו בוויכוח.

אני מכיר את העיקרון שלפיו לגבר אסור להסתכל על אישה מתוך תאווה ושיש עליו אחריות לשמור על העיניים והמחשבות שלו. מבחינת ההיגיון הפנימי של הדת, את זה אני דווקא מבין: אתה אחראי להתנהגות שלך.

מה שאני מתקשה להבין הוא למה במקביל נוצרת חובה על האישה לשנות את הלבוש שלה בגלל האפשרות שגבר יסתכל עליה ויתפתה.

נניח שאישה הולכת עם מכנסיים קצרים מעל הברך או עם גופייה. אני בכוונה לא מדבר על לבוש מאוד קיצוני או חשוף, אלא על דברים שבחברה החילונית הם די רגילים.

אם עצם המעשה שלה אינו פסול בפני עצמו, והבעיה היא התגובה של הגבר שרואה אותה, למה חלק מהאחריות מועבר אליה?

אם אומרים לגבר "אתה אחראי על העיניים שלך", למה במקביל אומרים לאישה "אבל את צריכה לכסות את עצמך כדי שלא תגרמי לו להסתכל"?

ופה אני גם מנסה להבין את המקורות עצמם.

אחד הפסוקים המרכזיים שמדברים על צניעות הוא בכלל במיכה ו' ח':

"הגיד לך אדם מה טוב ומה ה' דורש ממך, כי אם עשות משפט ואהבת חסד והצנע לכת עם אלוהיך."

בפשט של הפסוק, "הצנע לכת" לא מדבר בכלל על אורך שרוול, ברכיים או לבוש נשי. מדובר בערך כללי של אדם שמתנהל בצניעות מול אלוהים, כחלק ממשפט וחסד.

לכן מעניין אותי להבין: איך עוברים מהמושג הרחב הזה של צניעות למערכת מאוד מדויקת של כללי לבוש לנשים?

אני יודע שיש בהמשך מקורות חז"ליים והלכתיים. למשל בכתובות ע"ב מופיע הדיון על אישה נשואה שיוצאת בראש פרוע, ושם גם מופיע ההבדל בין "דת משה" לבין "דת יהודית", מנהגי הצניעות שנהגו בנות ישראל.

אבל דווקא זה גורם לי לשאול עוד יותר: אילו מהכללים שאנחנו היום מכנים "הלכות צניעות" הם ממש ציווי מקראי, אילו הם פרשנות של חז"ל, ואילו הם מנהגים שהתפתחו מאוחר יותר?

יש לי שאלה דומה לגבי יופי, איפור ותכשיטים.

לפעמים אני שומע את הרעיון שאישה לא אמורה "להתייפייף יותר מדי" או למשוך תשומת לב באמצעות איפור, תכשיטים וכו'.

אבל מצד שני, התנ"ך עצמו ממש לא מתייחס ליופי נשי כדבר פסול בפני עצמו.

על רחל, למשל, נאמר במפורש שהיא "יפת תואר ויפת מראה". בסיפור רבקה נותנים לה נזם וצמידים, בלי שהתכשיטים עצמם מוצגים כבעיה.

לעומת זאת, בישעיהו ג' יש ביקורת קשה על בנות ציון ועל צורת ההליכה, המבט, הראוותנות והתכשיטים שלהן. אבל שם לפחות מהקריאה שלי נראה שהבעיה היא הגאווה והניסיון למשוך תשומת לב, ולא עצם קיומם של תכשיטים או יופי.

ולכן אני מנסה להבין איפה בדיוק עובר הגבול מבחינת היהדות.

האם הצניעות בלבוש היא ערך בפני עצמו, גם אם אין שום גבר בסביבה?

אם כן, מה הערך המוסרי שעומד מאחוריה? למה, למשל, גילוי ברך או כתף הוא כשלעצמו דבר לא צנוע?

ואם הבעיה היא בעיקר ההשפעה על גברים אחרים, למה האדם שעלול להתפתות לא נושא לבדו באחריות לתגובה שלו?

ואולי בכלל כל ההנחה שלי לא נכונה, וצניעות הלכתית אינה מבוססת בעיקר על "לא לפתות גברים", אלא על תפיסה אחרת לחלוטין של גוף, פרטיות, מיניות וכבוד?

זו בעצם התשובה שאני מחפש.

אני פחות מחפש "ככה כתוב בשולחן ערוך ולכן עושים". ברור לי שאדם שמקבל את סמכות ההלכה יקיים אותה.

אני רוצה להבין מה ההיגיון שמאחוריה, ואיך מבחינה היסטורית והלכתית נוצר המעבר מ"הצנע לכת עם אלוהיך" למערכת המפורטת שאנחנו מכירים היום של שיער, שרוולים, ברכיים וכו'.

אשמח במיוחד לתשובות מאנשים דתיים שמכירים באמת את המקורות ויכולים לעשות הפרדה בין תורה, חז"ל, הלכה ומנהג.

אני לא מנסה להשתכנע להיות דתי ולא מנסה לשכנע מישהו להיות חילוני. אני באמת רוצה להבין את הטיעון בצורה הכי חזקה שלו.

​

I want to give a little backstory first because I think it matters to why my girlfriend reacts the way she does.

My girlfriend grew up in a very toxic and abusive family dynamic. I don't want to go into details because they're hers to tell, but it got bad enough that she eventually cut contact with her family, which I completely understand.

She has also had some very abusive relationships. One ex in particular was extremely obsessive and controlling. He wanted to know where she was constantly, would freak out if she went somewhere he didn't think she should be, and the entire relationship had a lot of unhealthy jealousy and control in it. Their relationship also literally started with him cheating on his girlfriend at the time with her, and she has good reason to believe he probably cheated on her too.

I'm mentioning all of that because I understand that jealousy and fear around relationships don't come out of nowhere for her.

Now to what happened.

I have a tattoo artist I've gone to four times now. She's a woman in her 30s, and she's autistic. I want to make it clear I'm not using "autistic" negatively or as some insult. My sister is autistic too, and my tattoo artist actually reminds me a lot of her in the way she gets extremely hyperfocused on things she's interested in and can talk about them forever.

That's basically our entire dynamic during tattoo sessions.

We happen to like a lot of the same anime, movies, etc., so while she's tattooing me we'll talk about whatever comes up. And by "talk," a lot of the time I mean she'll get excited about something and just go on and on about it while I mostly listen.

Two days ago I went in for another tattoo. At some point I asked if she'd seen the new Spider-Man movie. She said she'd watched it the previous day, and that turned into her talking nonstop about Marvel, where it's going, different shows, etc.

During the tattoo she put on Agatha All Along because I hadn't watched it before. I ended up really liking it.

When I got home I told my girlfriend about the session.

I specifically told her because we've agreed that we want transparency in our relationship. I also understand that I had just spent several hours one-on-one with another woman, so I figured being open about what we talked about was better than making anything feel hidden.

I told her basically exactly what I wrote above: we talked about Marvel, my artist got extremely excited about it, put the show on while tattooing me, and I really liked it.

My girlfriend immediately became visibly insecure and upset.

That turned into an argument about me being "too friendly" with my tattoo artist.

I tried to stay calm because I genuinely understood why jealousy could come up. But I kept explaining that there is absolutely nothing between us.

I'm not interested in my tattoo artist in any romantic or sexual way, and I'm also completely certain she's not interested in me that way either.

I even told my girlfriend that if my tattoo artist ever actually crossed a line, flirted with me, made a move, or did anything that made me feel like the dynamic had changed, I would stop it immediately. Even if I was halfway through a tattoo, I'd rather pay what I owe and leave than knowingly entertain something that disrespects my relationship.

I also explained that this isn't some special dynamic she has with me.

I've literally watched my tattoo artist do the same thing with other customers.

Once a male customer came in after me, mentioned an anime they both liked, and she immediately started rambling to him about it the exact same way.

The first time I ever went there, there were two female customers and she was doing exactly the same thing with them too.

She's just a very talkative person when something she's interested in comes up. Gender doesn't seem relevant to it at all.

My girlfriend has also met her and has actually gotten tattooed by her herself.

Eventually the argument got to the point where I felt like I was defending myself against something I hadn't actually done.

So I told my girlfriend something along the lines of, "I love you, but this is getting out of hand. I want to pause this conversation and come back to it when we're both calmer."

Later we did exactly that.

We sat together, were hugging, and talked calmly.

We basically agreed that jealousy itself isn't wrong. We're human and we love each other, so obviously sometimes jealousy is going to happen.

What matters is how we handle it.

We also agreed there needs to be trust because neither of us has given the other any reason to doubt our loyalty or honesty.

After that I asked if she needed reassurance or wanted to ask me anything.

She asked me if she had ruined my day.

This is another thing that connects to her childhood. She was basically raised to believe that she was always the problem, always ruining everything, always the bad daughter, etc.

So I reassured her that she hadn't ruined my day, that I still loved her, and that an argument doesn't suddenly change how I feel about her or mean I'm going anywhere.

She apologized too, and honestly the rest of the night was great. We were affectionate and the issue seemed finished.

Then two days later it happened again.

My girlfriend and I were sitting together scrolling through my phone looking for something to eat when an Instagram notification popped up from my tattoo artist.

My girlfriend already knew that my tattoo artist sometimes sends me reels/posts related to things we've talked about during sessions. Usually anime, tattoos, etc.

The second she saw the notification she immediately got upset and said something like, "See, this is what I'm talking about," in a pretty aggressive tone.

She asked what my tattoo artist sent me.

I immediately opened it in front of her.

It was a post about a Funko Pop based on a scene from the new Spider-Man movie.

The exact movie we'd literally just talked about during my tattoo session.

Completely innocent.

But we ended up having basically the same argument again.

My girlfriend said she's uncomfortable with my tattoo artist sending me things on Instagram.

She kept saying that she trusts me, but she doesn't trust the other person.

And I kept trying to explain that I understand the concept, but she also needs to trust my judgment when I'm telling her that there is nothing happening on the other person's side either.

I even gave her an example of a guy I wasn't particularly close friends with who used to send me posts about something we had talked about in person.

To me, these interactions are basically identical.

Someone remembers a conversation you had, sees something related to it, thinks "oh, this is what we were talking about," and sends it.

The gender doesn't change what it means to me.

Then my girlfriend asked to see my Instagram conversation with my tattoo artist.

This is where I refused.

Not because there was anything to hide.

My girlfriend knows my phone password. She has access to my phone. I've never tried to hide my messages from her.

But I told her I don't want our relationship to become one where the only way we feel safe is by checking each other's conversations for proof.

I had already told her exactly what our Instagram conversations consist of: tattoo appointments, tattoo ideas either I send her or she sends me, and occasionally reels/posts about anime, Marvel, tattoos, etc.

I told my girlfriend, "You need to trust me here."

She insisted that she does trust me and said she just wanted to see what kinds of things my tattoo artist and I were interested in together.

And I'll admit I didn't handle that part perfectly.

I kept trying to prove that her request contradicted what she was saying. Basically, "You say you trust me, but asking to inspect the conversation doesn't feel like trust."

I was trying to win that point instead of just listening, and I can recognize that wasn't helpful.

Eventually I stopped the conversation again because it was escalating.

I told her I loved her, that we were okay, and that I wanted to pause before we made it worse.

Afterward I thought about it and came back to her.

I told her that I genuinely understand why these situations might trigger insecurity for her, considering what she's been through.

But I also told her that I don't want our relationship to reach a point where every normal interaction either of us has with someone we could theoretically be attracted to becomes something we have to defend.

I'm straight, so for me that would mostly mean women. She's bisexual, so if we applied the same logic to her, it could theoretically mean almost everyone.

That doesn't seem healthy or sustainable to me.

I told her I will always reassure her. I'm completely okay with her saying, "Hey, this made me jealous," or asking me about something.

I just don't want every jealous feeling to turn into an investigation where I have to demonstrate that I'm innocent.

She eventually calmed down, but she seemed more sad than angry.

Then she asked me something like, "Before you came back to talk to me, did you not want anything to do with me?"

I immediately understood what she meant.

After I paused the argument, I had been walking around the apartment pretty quietly. I wasn't really talking to her, wasn't looking at her much, etc.

I was hurt and needed some space, and I was also trying to give her space because that's something we've agreed to do when arguments get too heated.

But looking back, I absolutely understand how it could have looked like I was completely rejecting her.

She has a lot of abandonment anxiety from her past, and arguments used to mean punishment, rejection or someone withdrawing love from her.

So I apologized for that part completely.

I told her that regardless of what we were originally arguing about, I didn't want her to feel like I was withdrawing love from her or abandoning her because we disagreed.

We talked about that separately, hugged, she apologized for her side too, and once again we agreed that trust needs to exist between us.

After that, the rest of the evening was honestly really loving. Hugging, kissing, joking around, everything felt normal again.

So I guess what I'm asking is:

Am I actually doing something inappropriate by talking to my tattoo artist like this or by allowing her to occasionally send me reels/posts about things we've discussed?

And more importantly, how do I handle this with my girlfriend?

If she tells me something makes her jealous, I don't want to dismiss her or tell her she's crazy. I understand where a lot of her fear comes from and I'm happy to reassure her.

But I also don't think the answer is for me to start cutting off normal interactions with women or proving my innocence by showing conversations whenever she feels insecure.

She also asked me during the argument, "If this was the other way around, wouldn't you be jealous?"

And I told her honestly that yeah, I probably would feel jealous.

But if the situation was genuinely identical, I'd also recognize that the interaction itself was reasonable. I'd have to deal with the jealous feeling without automatically making it mean she was doing something wrong.

I love her a lot and I genuinely want to handle this in a way that respects both her feelings and my boundaries.

TL;DR: My girlfriend has a history of abusive family/relationship dynamics and understandably struggles with jealousy and abandonment fears. My female tattoo artist and I talk about shared interests during long tattoo sessions, and she sometimes sends me Instagram reels/posts related to things we've discussed. My girlfriend has gotten upset about this twice, even after I've explained that there is nothing romantic happening and that I'd shut down any actual boundary-crossing immediately. She eventually asked to see our Instagram chat, and I refused because I don't want us to become a couple that needs to inspect each other's phones for reassurance. We talked everything out both times and made up, but I'm wondering whether I'm objectively doing anything wrong and how I can reassure her without turning normal interactions with other women into something I constantly have to defend.

I don’t really know how to structure this because I’m honestly just overwhelmed with anger and hurt right now.

I broke up with my ex not too long ago, and recently found out she’s now involved with someone I used to work with and considered a close friend.

This isn’t some random person in the background of my life. We all worked together, spent a lot of time around each other, and there was a real overlap in my personal life and theirs.

While I was still in the relationship, I sometimes felt uncomfortable with how well they got along. There were moments where I felt like I was being slightly pushed out of conversations or not fully "there" in the dynamic between them, but I didn’t know what to do with that feeling at the time. I tried to dismiss it, told myself I was overthinking, and kept going.

Now after the breakup, finding out they’re together has brought all of that back up at once.

And it’s hitting harder than I expected.

It’s not just sadness or missing the relationship. It’s anger. It’s feeling replaced. It’s feeling like I trusted two people who were closer to each other than I realized, and now I’m left sitting with all of it in my head.

What’s messing with me the most is how much I’m questioning myself. I keep replaying everything, wondering if I missed obvious signs, if my judgment was off, or if I ignored something I shouldn’t have.

And I hate that feeling. I really do.

I also feel a bit betrayed by my friend, because I genuinely trusted him and didn’t expect things to go in this direction so quickly after everything ended.

Right now I don’t need advice or solutions. I just needed to get this out of my head before it eats me up.

I’m angry. I’m hurt. And I’m trying not to let it twist how I see every future relationship or how much I trust people.