r/GameChangersBooks

I've just finished tough guys and it's been my least favorite so far. Has anyone else gotten a feeling that the author isn't into the type of men that are in this book? The relationship, scenarios, descriptions of their bodies falls flat to me.

Thoughts?

So I was today years old reading The Song of Achilles and met CHIRON, a centaur who is training Achilles. Did I miss this connection in Role Model or is it a cute little gift from Rachel?

I find it so interesting to find out how different people pronounce different characters names.

I recently saw a video from a girl who speaks French, who said she has been pronouncing Chiron as shi-ron. And a lot of other French-speakers agreed with her. Then of course, all the Greeks came in and told her that it’s Ky-Ron.

Another video where a woman was pronouncing Fabian as Fay-bee-an, where I have always presumed the pronunciation to be Fah-bee-an. Maybe it comes from the languages I speak, but my instinct is to say Fah and not Fay. I don’t know how it would be pronounced in Lebanese.

I still don’t know the pronunciation of Wiebe. Is Weeb? Is it wee-buh, like the Germans would pronounce it? Or wee-bee? Lol

I know the Americanised pronunciation of Ilya Rozanov is also very different from the Russian pronunciation, where the emphasis of syllables is different.

Any other names in the GC series that you found out you were pronouncing differently or still have no idea how to say?

this is always something that puzzled me regarding the discourse about this argument in tlg. like yeah ilya definitely could’ve used someone to talk to about his relationship with shane, but realistically who was “safe” enough to tell? he didn’t have any family besides his asshole brother, he was chill with his boston teammates but seeing as none of them were at the wedding they couldn’t have been that close, the ottawa team is closer but they are still relatively newish additions to his life, and troy had the same issue of being a relatively new friend AND being the very recent ex bestie of a notorious bigot. when you compare this to the people on shane’s side that know (his parents and his best friend of 10 years) the difference makes a lot of sense logically. i guess the most comparable person on shane’s side would be rose, but even then he knew her for like 3-4 years (??? do we know canonically when shane told her about ilya) and she already knew he was gay and proved herself trustworthy before being told. shane just had more safe people to tell and that’s why he had more people that knew compared to ilya.

i think this disparity is what led rr to reconning ilya and svetlana’s relationship between hr and tlg. i never got the vibe that she and ilya were super close from their one scene in hr and i was extremely confused when he kept bringing her up in tlg (i genuinely thought i missed a chapter or something lol), but it makes sense for rr to tweak their relationship as ilya quite literally had zero personal connections outside of hockey and he needed at least one. but even after the retcon for svetlana, she still wasn’t a particularly safe opinion either, as she was still just an occasional hookup that ilya liked slightly more than his other hookups due to her speaking the same language. idk all this to say i think a lot of the hate shane gets for “not allowing” ilya to tell anyone is really undeserved. could he have been more understanding of ilya’s circumstances and feelings? absolutely. but i don’t think he’s a villain for not being comfortable telling people that he (and ilya) aren’t sure are 100% trustworthy

In case any of you are interested in donating to the Annapolis Valley Regional Library like Rachel did, you can either click on this link: https://www.canadahelps.org/en/dn/18621 or click on the above link to their library’s website where you can scroll down near the bottom and click on the donate link. 😊

https://valleylibrary.ca

One of Ilyas is love languages is teasing undoubtedly. He’s a lovable and considerate boundary pusher if you will. While Shane is accurately Canadian in his inability to accept a compliment with a comfortable thank you. ( see Vegas rooftop for reference “it could have gone to either one of us”)

Thus my shower thought. In “the long game” when Ilya tells Shane he’s essentially a better player than him whilst being entangled at the all stars game. Is he truly having a moment of emotional honesty? Or is he getting off on seeing Shane wrestle with taking a compliment with grace?

I always thought it was the honesty part but then remember he bought coffee for the Rookie just to see him squirm. He’s absolutely the man to compliment with questionable motives. What do the people say?

View Poll

I just finished Common Goal for the second time, and I think I was kind of unfair to it the first time I read it.

I think it's still fundamentally a book about nothing. And by nothing I mean it's a book about two people getting way too into their own heads and waffling around for 200 pages. But the first time I led myself to believe that this book was just a massive annoying miscommunication drawn out over way too much time. And on the second read I think I allowed myself to be more empathetic to the reasons that neither of them would allow themselves to communicate.

Which softened me on the whole thing and allowed me to enjoy the character writing and dialogue, which is actually really strong. There are so many scenes and moments in this book that are incredibly funny. And I'd forgotten basically all of the details that tied it into the other books in the series.

I still think that Rachel is kind of bad at writing educated people, but I found myself less annoyed by that this time around too lol.

TLDR; A bit of a ramble, but I guess I wanted to know if anyone has similar feelings. Weird experiencing gatekeeping from something you were so excited to share with the world.

I wasn’t an OG OG GCU reader. I know some people have been there from the Stucky days. I discovered the series right when TLG came out and quickly became obsessed. They were my comfort read books. I loved them so much. I begged anyone I talked about books with to give them a chance, but had no luck for years. I would scour Reddit for discussions, hopefully browse Ao3, put comments on TikTok begging people to read them, but I felt pretty alone with my favorite characters that I just wanted to share with the world.

When the TV show was announced I was excited, mostly for Rachel, and didn’t get my hopes us too high on how good it will be. Saw the casting announcement - went huh, not what I pictured but that’s imagination vs real life for ya. I tried to talk to friends and family about how I was excited it was coming out and that I may have to head to Canada a few times to figure out how to watch it.

Found out it was coming to HBO. Gave away my HBO login left and right trying to convince people to watch.

Then it started to gain momentum. And it was so exciting. I finally got to share my prized “possession,” and I was so happy I could finally share my joy with these stores / characters (no it’s not mine to possess, but it was that joy of lending a friend an outfit and them loving it, or your favorite toy and them having a blast, watching someone play with your pet and having the time of my life).

I was so happy (and to be honest validated) that there were people to share this specialness with. The world of people to share and experience this love of the characters with has expanded and I was so happy.

Then something happened, that happens with most passionate fanbases, the vibes began to change. Where I had loved these stories / characters and enjoyed seeing them in a new medium and sharing them with others people turned possessive and angry and started looking for villains. Claiming ownership of characters and stories, even over Rachel and Jacob themselves.

Art is art, and as one consumer I have no right to dictate how other consume it, feel about it, engage with it. But I find myself so annoyed. Where I was once excited to share and partake with others, so many new fans claim such an intense ownership over the characters and stories. And it’s not in good faith, or fun, or blowing things up. But a weird possessiveness and an unwillingness to share or engage.

And I see across the broader fandom just weird and angry actions in an attempt to possess. Either writing off other fans and saying they can’t possibly engaged they are not gay men and/ or queer, and the opposite end of the fandom where there is fetishization without respect and acknowledgment of queerness.

I love these stories because they are fun and sweet without being corny. They are also grounded with real people. Ilya’s battle with depression so much mirrored my own, that it helped me finally acknowledge I had a problem. The stories helped me examine my sexuality and my desire to be loved and love others. They aren’t supposed to be dense literary fictions that heavily engages with all the themes in them. They are light book, is direct language, that still manages to have some real engagement with more serious real world topics.

Logically I feel that everyone can consume and engage and interpret how they see fit and it doesn’t change my experience. But the irrational part of my brain has turned a bit into “I liked this band before they were cool” whenever I see people acting like that total authority and gatekeeper on these stories and characters. And it makes me sad, like instead of getting to share and play with my “toy” with others, that have run off with it.

I don’t know where this ramble going. Maybe I just wanted to see if others were having complicated feelings as well. I am so happy that the show has blown up and so many people have found joy with the show and the characters, and that a lot of this passion came because it all hit so hard and there is space for everyone at the table.

PS - latest thing to PMO is so small, but what triggered me to finally write down my feelings. Someone said - Shane would never have long hair. His sensory issues would never be able to handle it. RR and neuro typical people would never get that. As a neurodivergent person myself - WTF?! Where is the textual evidence. I am happy you found a character to connect to, but their fictional lived experience isn’t yours.

HR spoilers ahead...

This may be my favorite section of Heated Rivalry. Shane and Ilya have had sex a few dozen times by now (give or take), but the Skype call, which takes place in March of 2017, is where things become really intimate. Emotionally intimate. I'm still salty it wasn't in season 1 of the show. Things I love:

"You are very beautiful". 😭 This is the second time Ilya says this to Shane. The first time is in the prologue (Shane blows it off at that time). To me this parallels the scenes later and in TLG where Shane thinks about how very hot Ilya is, and how he's scored himself a ten! Shane, Ilya and Troy probably battle it out on yearly "Top 5 hottest NHL stars" lists.

I love Ilya's constant swooning over Shane's freckles! I'm disappointed that in the show there's only one freckle mention, and in some scenes you can hardly see them. They are his most striking feature!

Shane shyly brings up that he thinks about Ilya every time he gets off alone! He then admits he's never had anything "like this" with anyone. Swoon.

Ilya then can't stop himself from asking about Shane and other men. It's similar to the Tampa bar conversation, and him continuing to bring up Rose. He needs to know!

We learn that Shane's only been with two other men (and a bunch of disappointed women! *Anyway...*).

Ilya finally sees (over Skype) a place Shane calls home, something he's wanted from almost the very beginning. And he finds it boring! But we know that the cottage is Shane's true home, and much more "him" as far as decor and hominess.

My boy Shane gets a steely glint in his eye when their jerking off session becomes a competition! He knows just what to say (he brings up their draft night in the hotel gym!) to get Ilya off. He loves a challenge, and when Shane gets competitive.

​

What kind of relationship do you think Luca has with Shane and Ilya outside of hockey? Would they be the close friend and teammate who gets along with both of them, and what kind of dynamic do you imagine the three of them having—especially once Lucas becomes part of their family life and gets to know them beyond the rink?

• Montreal \*really\* regrets letting Shane go

• Ilya uses Solnyshko/Pomidor/Kotnik

Shane- I don’t know maybe just say “should we talk” and then don’t?
Ilya- i used anger and avoidance but sexily-have you tried that?

Scott-well hiding and failing at love bombing worked for me
Kip- participate in hiding, be mad about it then be mad at all the gifts that make your life easier?

Eric- ambivalent waffling. And don’t forget The ambivalence.
Kyle- are they like your ex and your parents in a way you just can’t get over?

Fabian- everyone wants to have sex with me so maybe look for someone who doesn’t want to so much?
Ryan- I don’t think I’m the best person to ask for advice (caveat-he probably would give you good advice but he just can’t)

Troy- gotta let your life implode, explode and crumble with a side of mutual near death experience so you feel terrible while trying to overcome two decades of patriarchal asshole training then try ice cream. Ice cream and apples?

Harris- embrace yourself. Laugh as often as you can. Be gentle and allow people to feel safe and grow.

hi hi i’m newer to this fandom i only saw the show and really actually watched it a month or so ago, now ive read a couple of the books and i really am so curious what people thought shane and ilya were going to look like before the show came out. the descriptions are very different in the book but obviously hudson and conner killlllllled it. i would hust love to see fan art from before the show/the initial casting was announced.

I've been re-reading Tough Guy recently, and I have to say that every time I get to the end I feel a mighty need to re-write the entire last quarter of the book.

The book has structural issues. It's too short, and doesn't give the conflict created in the third act time to breathe before ending abruptly. It's definitely not the only book in the series to have structural issues either. I think Common Goal is way worse, but somehow it's rated higher on average despite needing way more work to fix imo.

Regardless of these issues, I love Tough Guy. And the thing that I love about it most, and that makes it special to me out of all the other books in the series is that it's very gay. Like, culturally gay. All the other books contain gay characters sitting in a very heterosexual space, and this is the one book that actually intersects that world with things that are recognizably queer spaces.

It's not a particularly deep or complex portrayal, but I have to commend Rachel on building a microcosm that feels pretty relatable to me. I have friends that are like Fabian and his friends. Bargain brunch reminds me of so many queer little gatherings in my life. The spirit is there, and its pretty effective.

The other thing I like about it is Ryan. A lot of people say they find living in his head to be tiring, and to them I say. "Yes, yes it is. Now I have to get back to my CBT breathing exercise designed to make me stop thinking that my friends all hate me."

I get that it probably isn't sexy to many people, but as a large gay man with an anxiety disorder, it was really great to have that representation. It's probably why I will never be able to dislike this book even as it slams headfirst into its ending at mach 7.

Besides the structural issues, the one complaint I've seen more than any other about this book is that people hate Fabian.

And I'm like, why?

My thought is that people don't like what the book is saying about hockey. They don't like that Fabian is correct in his assessment that hockey is making Ryan miserable. And they think that part of the resolution to the story should have been Fabian getting over his prejudices and learning that he needed to support Ryan in his beloathed career. They don't like that this book that was billed as a hockey romance winds up mostly being an anti-hockey romance.

Through that lens, I think that it gets easy to see everything that Fabian does in the least charitable way possible. And I am begging those people to believe that Fabian is not taking himself as seriously as you think he is for the majority of this book. He is funny, and he is joking. We are not living in the world's most antagonistic Portlandia sketch, it's just gay millennials having brunch.

The complexity here, and where it all falls apart is that Rachel wrote both parts of the contradiction at the heart of the narrative to be partially true without giving them room to resolve separately. Hockey in the NHL is currently making Ryan miserable and he needs to leave and build something else that will make him happy, and Fabian needs to get over his prejudices enough to realize that he's being selfish and there is definitely a compromise they can build towards together.

The problem is that both of those resolutions happen at the same time, so you don't actually get to live in Fabian's desire to compromise for any amount of time before a complete capitulation immediately presents itself. I don't think this makes Fabian a bad person who learned nothing, but if you already didn't like him I can see how it would definitely feel like that. Especially since it's written so that Ryan apologizes first. I think the desire to resolve everything in the plot in a single chapter winds up making Fabian look kinda bad. There are lines that make you feel that there's been a change internally, but he doesn't get to actually demonstrate that change.

If I could change any small thing about the book, would be that Ryan shows up and apologizes first. Beyond that, structurally, I think the book needs two things: I'd add a new prologue describing their night on the ferry together. --I think that having the characters describe it is not nearly as effective for reminding people why they're together as just writing the damn scene at the beginning of the book.-- And I'd put the reconciliation and apology before the funeral, and add three more chapters of them trying to compromise with the Guardians around Ryan's health before the funeral makes Ryan realize that it can't work.

I genuinely think that those two changes would fix the whole thing minus some smaller framing problems, as long as you could get over the fact that it's a hockey book that hates the NHL.

I had someone complain about a post related to the characters in the book and the new TV series that is being recorded. Information specifically in relation to the books and the TV show can be discussed, like we have been with different characters and how they are explained in the book and what we hope to see from them in the future, it's still a discussion about the books, including what's going to be happening for the next couple of months as information leaks out.

We don't want discussion about the actors lives or TV specific questions, because there's many subs for that.

This is going to be exciting the next few months, watching a favorite book come to life on screen is a pretty exciting! I'm sure we'll be getting an influx of new loons.