r/Malazan

Just finished DG and I am blown away. I never expected to fall in love with Coltaine, the crow clan and the 7th army the way that I did.

I've seen a couple of posts say that Coltaine was unrelatable and the ending did not work for them. And I think that's fine. But in a weird way that is the reason it worked spectacularly for me. We are not supposed to relate to Coltaine because how do you begin to relate to someone as special as Coltaine. In a manner similar to Rake, Erikson does not let us into the head of this character because he represents something that just can't be grasped through relatability. Because how do you relate to a centuries old Tiste Andii? And how are you supposed to relate to a Fist who does not SHOW or EXPRESS his sympathy and empathy towards refugees who are absolutely miserable but will also lay down his and his entire clan's life for them? I'm pretty sure many who did not like the ending thought coltaine a heartless bastard and you might not be wrong. But he also DID sacrifice everything for those same people who were snapping at his hand. His is not a world that can be shown, only witnessed.

This following part is speculation but his death also seems to reveal quite a bit about him. Sormo Nath's power was so huge it needed 11 crows to carry him and when Coltaine is on the verge of death hundreds and thousands of crows descend upon that field because that's how huge his soul was. (Im aware that the crows might be coming for the other wickans too but if I'm not wrong only coltaine and bult were the last survivors of their clan fleeing Apocalypse).

Sometimes there are simply personalities far beyond human and the only way to truly grasp them is by witnessing them from the outside. I don't think we are supposed to relate to him only witness him in awe. And in my prediction the relevance of an event like Chain of Dogs will only grow with later books.

"Coltaine leads a Chain of Dogs,

Ever snapping at his hands."

Funny story: I like to think of myself as someone who is generally good at taking an idea and explaining it in a way that anyone can understand. I’m sitting here reading House of Chains and a coworker comes over and asks what I’m reading. I tell him how it’s the 4th book in the Malazan series, but then he asks “so what are they about?” I stare at him blankly for a full 5 seconds before I’m like “wait I don’t know” hahaha I eventually get around to it but whew these books really are something

I listen on the way to and from work everyday as I can't read while driving and home is busy af.

Ralph Lister was the VA in the first four books. Michael Page takes over for the rest of the series. How do I get through this? Their approaches are so different. Not only are they character voices changed but the over all pronouncement of established characters and locations are different. Some times I feel like Michael Page is over voice acting and it almost sounds exaggerated like at a children's theater.

Will I get used to it? Does it get better? Am I cooked?

I just read the part where the Errant pays Menandore a visit, followed by the meeting between Menandore, Shadowthrone and Hood. And while Menandore and ST came to an agreement of mutual assistance, Hood despite attending the meeting didn't seem to be involved. So why was he there?

Gods of Death/the Dead often are also associated with the role of arbiter, is that why he was there, as a witness/to ratify the agreement? If yes, does that mean there is a kind of formal hierarchical structure between the (non-Elder) gods that hasn't been talked about yet? So far it seemed to me like the gods all do whatever they want without having to adhere to any kind of code or laws, as long as they have the power and influence to do so.

In my mind, there is a difference between "High" Literature and "Low" Literature. I use quotes because there is no judgement of quality. I actually don't have that much patience for some stuff I consider high literature, and most of my favorite books I would consider low literature.

What's the difference? For me, High Literature is not there for me, it wasn't written for me. In my view, High Litertaure is when the author has something to say, and must say it, and the book is the only way they found to say the thing they want to say. There's something inside of the author that must be taken out. Audiences, formulas, plot conventions, "readability", all of it be damned or, at least, it takes a distant back seat for that which must be done.

Of course, the people that happen to be authors happen to have read a lot and practiced a whole lot, they have internalized a literary universe which allows what they do to be amazing in ways that are deeply unique, in ways that transcends convention and mere literary analysis. High literature can suck, it can be deeply flawed. It can also border the unreadable sometimes. It can also become its own genre as modernity progresses and the very universe of High Literature wraps tighter and tighter into itself and forms its own conventions. But I digress.

I don't think that Fantasy has a lot of high literature under this definition. Tolkien, and Erikson. Maybe TWoT, I haven't read it. I think pretty much the rest of the people I've read are writing novels with the main intention of giving the audience a nice ride. Nothing wrong with that, I've seen the Brandon Sanderson Writing Courses on YouTube and really enjoyed listening to him talk about his craft, as much as I dislike his writing. Abercrombie is amazing, but he's writing for me and I can tell.

Malazan doesn't feel it is for me at all. Erikson clearly had something to say about compassion, and everything else took a backseat to the delivery of that message, book in book out. Erikson clearly had a whole world that was just spilling out of him in its complexity, a world that, quite frequently, one feels he doesn't fully understand! Many times I felt that I was reading him walk away from a certain scene, from a certain explanation, not only to build mistery for the reader but because he himself didn't want to spoil his own magic trick.

I don't think there has ever been an author in fantasy so brave in thinking about magic (whenever I say these things, take into account I have big debts with the genre, Hobb and Wolfe mainly). With Fantasy, as I grew up and started reading history and understanding the world a bit more, it was always a bit jarring to go back to read Fantasy because the worlds, including the magic, seemed awfully simple, like a kids play. Characters worked mostly as expected, and Magic did as well. Once you read a bit about the thousands of overlapping little factors, the bunch of shit that doesn't make sense, that happens in history around every single event, fiction that is too ambitious about the size of the world it imagines can feel just plain silly. Erikson brings in the true complexity of three fundamental things (People, Politics and Magic) to the fore and has no qualms about the sheer scale of each of them. Of course, one person can't really contain all that (there's a thread about authors and the idea of the Shield Anvil here, but I'll leave it unexplored).

That Magic, if it existed in the ways "High Fantasy" has thought of it, must behave in ways that are poetical and political, both whimsical and logical, that it should be as complex as the world it lives in, and to make a weird knot of magical conceits the very center of your plot is an incredible bet, that surely pays off in how beautiful it all is, and in being so expansive you can end up with a fairly ok understanding of how it "works" without ever achieving anything close to understanding it fully... which is the point. Even at the very end, I'm still trying to wrap my head about what exactly went down, and trying to understand if I'm even meant to piece it together? Does even Erikson understand what happened?

I can see how someone after taking such a long trip can feel frustrated. I think its justified. Erikson really is asking you for a lot and, even close to the end, you think there may be a conversation in which its all made clear, that the mysteries will be unveiled, and I'm not sure that that moment ever actually comes (it does come sometimes, for some of the stuff, and its so exciting and rewarding). And that's also part of what Erikson is asking for you. And here, you have to really get into a High Literature mood: Erikson is trying to do something to me, not just make me happy I read this mountain. It really is thematic that you're left confused until the very end, in ways that I can't go into without spoilers.

But I will always despise the following line of commentary that usually comes up in this sub: "If you hated it so much, why did you read the whole thing?"... well... have you read the book? You don't see how it is so thematic the fact of putting yourself through something long and desperate, wanting to find something at the end that you get but not in the way that you expected? You can't see how someone can react negatively to that? That's the thing with high literature: hating it is as valid a reaction as liking it. If Erikson is not writing to please you, how could you dislike someone for sticking around willing to be displeased, and then coming here to share that displeasure? That's as a normal and valid reaction to this mess of a work as loving it.

One final point about characters: we have really gotten used to a certain way of characterization that comes from writing seminar, screenplay writing, the industrialization and modernization of fiction. Characters need to have a Personality with Strengths and Weaknesses, Motivations, they should have an Emotional Arc to feel "Fleshed Out" to the Reader. A satisfying Emotional Arc resolves the inner tension of the character. They should have clear ways of being that we can tally. But... have you met people? They are not characters. They don't have "Emotional Arcs", their actions are not clearly driven by motivations.They barely change at all! They are not reductible to a one-pager not because they are "more complex" but because people are not coherent at all if they (we) are not awfully simple and sometimes very inexpressive. I've read a lot of complaints about "Characterization" in Malazan or the lack of it. Well, yeah, he's mostly trying to write people. Some people, you can really stand them out. Some people are more generic. Some people don't show a lot of themselves. The characterization of Malazan, with its peaks and valleys, is also one of the high points of it. Tavore is a wonderful example, one of the slowest, most austere, best characters in fantasy.

I wanted to do a spoiler free review. I think I will make another Spoilery post with like book rankings and character moments, but wanted to get this one off my chest. I have witnessed once more, and this time it felt more complete and satisfying. I'm happy I've read the Book of the Fallen twice.

EDIT (will also add this as a comment)

Non-Fantasy Books I think Malazan Readers would appreciate, I'll add a lot of essays that I think you'd like about or messy world, and just stuff that my intuition tells me a Malazan person would appreciate in their lives:

• Blood Meridian, No Country for Old Men and The Road by Cormak McCarthy
• Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurty
• Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege by Antony Beevor
• War and Peace by Tolstoi
• Crime and Punishment and Brothers Karamazov by Dostoievksy
• Cryptonomicon, Seveneves, Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson (and probably anything else by him)
• Hitler: 1889-1936 Hubris and Hitler: 1936-1945 Nemesis by Ian Kershaw.
• War and Peace and War and End Times: Elites, Counter-Elites, and the Path of Political Disintegration (Essays) by Peter Turchin
• Candide by Voltaire (kept thinking about Candide in the humorous parts of Malazan)
• The Path to Power (Volume 1 of Lyndon Johnson Biography) by Robert A. Caro
• Nothing is True and Everything is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev (essay about Russia)
• Hitler's Thirty Days To Power: January 1933 by Henry Turner Ashby Jr.
• Stalin: Paradoxes of Power and Stalin: Waiting for Hitler by Stephen Kotkin (incomplete Stalin biography)
• Fouché by Stefan Zweig
• SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome by Mary Beard
• Against Method by Paul Feyerabend

Finished Midnight Tides this week. Wow. I keep wondering how Erikson could top what he’s already done, then he does it again. I’ve learned to trust the character shifts and new narratives and this is my favorite turn yet! I’m almost disappointed to go back to the Malazans in Bonehunters, never imagined I’d say that. I hope I get more Edur, Letherii, and Crimson Guard.

Even before going into it I’d heard Letheras was a good commentary on modern culture, and I agree, but I think the juxtaposition of Letheras and the Edur is what makes it so powerful. At first glance the Edur are tribal traditionalist at odds with the Letherii manifest destiny, but as the book progressed they proved themselves so similar. Both cultures are built on noble lies about themselves. And as they become more similar I notice the commentary feels more to be against the gears of war and the force of societal expectations against the mercy and honor of individuals. About the way we lose something when we become so preoccupied in building the story of what makes “us” better than “them.” And the way the massive scale of imperial war alienates us from even the few surviving virtues of honorable combat. None of these philosophical narratives would land without the intimacy of each character. Trull is far and away my favorite character yet, his anxieties about his changing society posed against his love for his family and desire to do his duty is so poignant. I can’t stop thinking of him crying after one of the battles with Lilac’s hand on his shoulder.

Seren Pedac made me cry, multiple times, I don’t have high hopes for happy endings around here but I do hope she and Trull meet again. Easily my favorite female character Erikson has written. There’s been a lot of violence against women in this series, which is an understandable part of war, but I don’t love seeing it. In my opinion this was his best confrontation yet with the inner world of a woman suffering that violence, I really respect the way he wrote her.

And Tehol and Bugg, I can’t put words to it, so precious, comedic, and simultaneously such a valuable part of the portrait the whole story is painting.

When I started Malazan I was worried the grimdark would be too dark for me, I rarely enjoy darkness for its own sake. I’ve seen enough tough shit in life I don’t like to dwell on it in fiction. What’s surprised me about this series is how healing I’ve found it. There are so many moments of compassion, mercy, and beauty, and seeing them shine in spite of all the moments of grief is inspiring. It’s such a raw and honest confrontation with how the scope of history makes us feel powerless… yet Erikson continuously reminds us of the value of our individual agency in the midst of it.

I have all these friends reading shallow works like A Court of Thorns and Roses and I’m trying to explain to them why I’m crying over an Elder god choosing to be a manservant. Thank you for being my bookclub Malazan Reddit. I’m glad there’s other humans in the world with patience for stories like these. I can’t wait to start Bonehunters and be astounded yet again.

I haven't finished reading this but wow! So we finally get the details for the ship we see in DG. When I read the descriptions of the dories and black ships, I felt we might get some connecting lore. Little did I know! >!Warleader here destroying Tiste Edur left right and center!<.

This brings me to the question, I seem to have forgotten parts of the details from DG. >!It was Heboric and the poor mage whose name I forget who find the ship after the destruction caused by Karsa. And the Seven being chased by their kin makes me wonder if these kin are the T'lan Imass we see in one of the earlier books, one of which sacrifices themselves to seal the rent in the warren?!<

This is beautiful. I didn't know HoC was going to get crazy this early into the book. >!I'm also getting a feeling that Karsa would eventually join the House of Chains. It would be interesting to see how he faces up to Kallor, if he joins up.!<

Also a side note, I love >!Torvald!<. What a friend he has been so far and what a rambler too.

To those who have both read Malazan AND listened to the audiobooks, how would you describe the experiences, and their differences?

EDIT:

Thanks everyone for your opinions!

I’m on yet another reread, and I’d not even considered an audio version. Given how chaotic life can be, I wondered if it was a viable alternative.

Sounds like it’s a mixed bag, so I think I’ll stick with my old man ways!

When did capemoths stop being one of the most terrifying creatures in the Malazan empire?

I'm about 160 pages into Gardens of the Moon, and I'm so confused but also completely captivated at the same time. The only other books or series that have given me this same feeling are The Wheel of Time and The Will of the Many (or really anything by James Islington).

I can already tell this is going to be a top-three series for me, and it has completely pulled me out of my reading slump. There's something so exciting about having to uncover the plot for yourself instead of having everything explained directly to you. I have no idea what's going on half the time, but I'm having so much fun figuring it out.

I don't know if this is really a spoiler thing but there are so many diverse groups in Malazan world. I personally am obsessed with the 14 undead Jaghut that jog around laughing their asses off waiting to fight something. I want to know them more. They are so hilarious and strange. There was also those people who lived on the cliffs and made a whole net city by Coral(?) Or the Mekros. What little group of people sparked your interest?

Three years ago i create this peace.

It took more than five months to complete.

Creating Artwork i use - Blender, Substance 3D Painter, Photoshop.

Music Production - Cubase (DAW), VSTi (Kontakt libraries, East West Composer Cloud).

Mix & Mastering by Mannaro Music

I haven't read the newer books and maybe this is hammered out a bit more in those... But I find the depictions irritatingly inconsistent. First they are sort of semi-vow of silence sword nerd samurai. They care about the craft and the hierarchy and that is pretty much it.

But then we meet several later on and they're all wacky berserker types who run their mouth and say wild stuff. I'm thinking of Vorcan's guards and the dead guy in Hood's army....

Hello,

Last year I took a dive into this series and fell in love with it after starting a stopping a handful of times. It finally clicked and I blazed through all the way up to book 9 where I burned out. For whatever reason, I could not bring myself to continue. So I decided to step away from the series and give my mind a break.

Well, almost a year later I decided that it was time to pick it back up. However, I was worried that I would be lost if I jumped right into book 9. So, because I'm insane, I decided to just start the entire series over from scratch so that everything would be fresh in my mind.

I am confident that I made the correct decision because DAMN. Originally, I liked GotM as a novel. Thought it was a good introduction to characters and themes, but it didn't necessarily blow me away. I only continued the series based off of the hype surrounding it. Now, I am legitimately blown away by the amount of seeds planted and information sewn into the first book that completely flew over my head on my initial read through. The world-building is top notch and I am consuming the book with a much better understanding of what it going on in the bigger picture.

I am eager to read the other books with this outlook and see what else I missed on my first journey. This seems to be a series that demands a second read to truly appreciate the world that Erikson has created here (not that I didn't love it the first time through).

My previous rankings were as follows:

1. Toll the Hounds 10/10
2. Bonehunters 10/10
3. Midnight Tides 10/10
4. House of Chains - 8.5/10
5. Deadhouse Gates - 8.5/10
6. Memories of Ice - 8.5/10
7. Reaper's Gale - 8/10
8. Gardens of the Moon -7/10

I am a little over halfway through GotM right now, but I can already tell that my rating will bump up to at least an 8. Most likely an 8.5. I can't wait to see how my thoughts change over the course of my re-read.

This series is just so fucking cool.

I just finished chapter twenty one of Deadhouse Gates and I'm emotionally devastated.

First time reader, I started Gardens of the Moon in June and greatly enjoyed it.

After finishing it I went straight to Deadhouse Gates, but was not prepared for the roller-coaster of emotions that came with it especially the last two chapters I read. I've been bowling my eyes reading about Coltaine and the Chain of Dogs. That last part of the march was truly gut wrenching and I kept hoping for a miracle even though I knew it could not happen and it was already incredible that the refugees made it to Aren.

I'm still reeling from what I just read and trying to process it. Sorry if I'm not making any sense, just wanted to share with the community my impressions.

Amazing book and I can't wait to go on reading and see what happens next.