r/cervical_instability

Really sad, but interesting MSC trial just failed when placebo was introduced

Really sad, but interesting MSC trial just failed when placebo was introduced

There's a company in Australia doing iPSC-derived MSCs, if you don't know what that is, could ask ChatGPT, but here's a really quick overview:

You can take an adult cell (skin cell, blood cell, etc.) and reverse it back into a super powerful stem cell, almost as powerful/versatile as an embryonic stem cell, which is able to create every tissue in the body. Doing this in the lab is called an induced pluripotent stem cell, or iPSC. You are inducing (forcing) it to become pluripotent (can turn into many things).

You can take that iPSC and make mesenchymal stem cells, which are used in orthopedics and some other indications like autoimmune stuff etc, and you can make a buttload of them this way without a bone marrow aspiration.

This company, Cynata Therapeutics, just put that to the test in a Phase 3 trial of those iPSC-derived MSCs for knee osteoarthritis, with a placebo arm. It was a big deal for the industry, I think the first company to attempt this (though don't quote me).

Sorta surprisingly, the problem wasn't that the stem cell group didn't report improvement, they actually improved really well. The problem is, the placebo group also reported the same improvement. This, of course, means it failed, and there's something else happening.

The CEO had some interesting remarks about why. His theory is basically that people have seen stuff online about stem cells, there's a huge enthusiasm for them for just about anything, especially orthopedics. So much so, if you tell the patient that's what they're getting, they're likely to report improvement, even if it's just saline. However, it's important to note that iPSC-derived MSCs are very new, and not what is injected in pretty much any CCI situation (yet).

There have been a few attempts at placebo-controlled trials for orthopedic stem cells:

  • Mayo Clinic did an interesting study. Patients with bilateral (both knees) knee arthritis received bone marrow-derived MSCs in one knee and saline in the other; both knees improved at about the same rate.
  • Duke conducted a study that randomized patients to receive steroids (control), stromal vascular fraction (adipose-derived MSCs), bone marrow-derived MSCs, or umbilical cord tissue, all of which reported about the same improvement.

 

There are however some positive ones, like Cartistem from Korea, which is MSCs made from umbilical cord blood. They showed great improvement over placebo, and even confirmed cartilage regeneration via biopsy/cameras in the knee iirc. That company just passed its Phase 3 in Japan, and is starting in the US sometime this year; pretty hopeful for them.

There are a handful of others in the pipeline too, so it's not all doom gloom and scams.

But, it does beg an uncomfortable question in CCI... what happens if we did a placebo controlled trial? Truly, what would happen here? We've seen that the stem cell group reportedly shows subjective improvement, based on the PICL app/charts posted on reddit. But, what would a placebo group show? I don't have any insider knowledge, so of course it's just an unanswered question, but I feel it's a very important one. And not just PICL, but the same goes for posteriors or other therapies from any random clinic.

If the data showed most of what the success stories (even my own, gulp) is actually placebo, think about how far the train is from the station. I know many people who have given their retirements, second mortgage on their home, I sold my lovely jeep, etc. already.

There are also a lot of people who can't afford the injections, but are told it's pretty much the only option, and suffer a lot because of that.

That's been on my mind a lot recently, of course I would want to know, and think patients deserve the right to know the answer to that, but it's very awkward to think about.

u/Jewald — 6 hours ago

A discomfort that is not even pain

I've been going with this for months and it's worse now than ever.

Even while lying flat on my back, I feel a discomfort in my neck which gaves me a general feel of discomfort in my whole living experience.

I can't forget I have a neck bothering me. It makes me feel irritable, not grounded, distracted, not in the present, not comfortable on my own skin.

Do any of you relate with this? And is there any way to stop this feeling if I can't access to treatment yet? (surgery / prolotherapy)

Maybe some kind of pill, I don't know

Thanks

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u/scaneb — 22 hours ago

Who has had cervical disc replacement?

I am being faced with this very same thing and it’s kind of daunting.
I am looking for answers, pro and con for this, what your experiences have been.
And I am specifically asking about replacement instead of fusing… (but if some of you have had fusing, I welcome your thoughts on that as well.)

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u/RevDaughter — 3 days ago

New discovery that lymphatic system in neck might play a role in csf, brain fog, recovery...this group would probably be a good cadaver population.. donate today!

My cci aai tbi odyssey has proven to me that movement is better for me than bed bound atrophy. If you have upper cervical instability, you know its mind fuckery can keep you from moving like you intuitively think you should. This new research maybe point to alternative fluids could locked up and or disrupted in tight cervical facia, and structural cervical dislocation that is inhibiting brain health coming from the lymphatic system.but its role is unknown

rdcu.be
u/lifeafterwhiplash — 4 days ago

Overhang doesnt equal picl

Here is another case where someone regained functionality without a picl. This is Dr Hutcheson in Fl. He used to do the curve correction at caring medical. I saw him a few years ago and he had pretty decent lateral overhang, has never had PICL, has done some posterior prolo and curve correction and hes doing great! Very healthy guy.

u/Particular-Employ741 — 5 days ago

Upright MRI Radiologists

Hello, Is there a website where you can send your urpright MRIS and get an experienced in CCI radiologist to read it and write a report? . Thank you

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u/heyhihowarey — 5 days ago

Posterior PRP

Im scheduled for my first round of posterior prp at the CSC next month. Curious to hear others experiences. I tend to be very sensitive so super not ready to jump into a PICL. I have had luck from PRP in the past but things have gotten worse since getting covid this spring.

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u/Particular-Employ741 — 7 days ago

How can I make driving with CCI less painful?

One of my biggest functional challenges with CCI is driving. I feel I’ve tried so many different set ups with not much success. Would greatly appreciate if Dr. C or anyone else can answer these questions:

  1. Why specifically is driving so difficult with CCI?

  2. What can we add or remove or change to our car set up to make driving more manageable?

Thanks in advance!

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u/Significant_Value365 — 8 days ago

MRI "cleared" me of CCI but just learned the report has no CCI measurements. Looking for guidance.

Hi everyone, my neurologist (who doesn't specialize in CCI) ordered a cervical flexion-extension upright MRI at my request back in November. The report came back with nothing significant besides a few disc bulges, and I was told CCI wasn't a concern.

While organizing my medical notes, I found out that CCI evaluation requires specific measurements and none were in my report.

Is there anywhere I can send my MRI report to re-evaluate and take the proper measurements needed?

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u/No-Egg4825 — 7 days ago

Do you regret starting with posterior PRP?

Just curious if anyone regrets getting 1-2 rounds of posterior PRP and wishes they just went straight for the PICL instead.

Also, if you did opt to try posterior injections first, do you think they helped you at all, and the PICL just built upon it, so to speak (in the posterior structures of course)?

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u/JoanArcane815 — 10 days ago

Where to find PICL patients

Does anyone know where I can talk to people who have underwent the PICL procedure? I would really just like to hear about people’s experience with it and if they got better or not. I understand it will probably be a mixed bag but I’d still like to hear from people?

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u/SaladDry8868 — 12 days ago

Just got diagnosed with CCI wondering about PT

I officially got diagnosed with CCI today, I’m looking to try more PT or other more conservative treatment for a while before I decide to go for the PICL procedure. I’m still on the fence about it because of the cost and my symptoms are manageable even if very disorienting and frustrating.

I’m just curious if anyone knows any good places to look for CCI conscious PT or even chiropractic care.

I’m also in the North Jersey area

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u/SaladDry8868 — 13 days ago

Have you found relieve with any collar?

I already bought an adult Aspen Vista (adjustable) and I get pain as soon as I put it. I feel it pushes me forward in a weird position.

Have you been lucky with any one else?

And have any of you gotten a professional fit collar?

I'm thinking on trying a classic Philadelphia (easily accesible), a Miami J (I often see it mentioned in cci communities), and a proffesional fit one.

I just meassured my neck and it's 10 cm tall, 39 cm circunference.

Thanks!

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u/scaneb — 12 days ago
▲ 20 r/cervical_instability+2 crossposts

Stem Cells for CCI Learning Ride Along, Volume 1: What Are Stem Cells?

Georgia just joined Utah, Florida, Tennessee, and a few others in the pipeline in "allowing" umbilical cord-derived mesenchymal stem cells, and I've gotten tons of questions about them from patients, ranging from:

  • What are these?
  • Aren't they a scam?
  • I just attended a timeshare-like dinner on a clinic trying to sell me a 25K umbilical cord stem cell package, what the hell was that? (These are happening, stay away)

There's a ton of misinformation, mostly from clinics, but also social media about what stem cells are and what they do, and it feels timely to start putting together some stem cell 101 posts for CCI patients because there is a lot happening in the field that is likely to impact your care in the near future, for the positive, but also some negative.

I also find it really unique and cool that patients are fascinated by stem cells and want to learn, you don't see that with pharmaceuticals.

But, on the bad side, most of us rely on a handful of salespeople doctors for information, which is often riddled with smoke and mirrors and half-truths to the unsuspecting/desperate/vulnerable. I feel it's brainwashing people making a not-so-great patient environment and I actually expect that trajectory to get worse over the next few years.

I don't have any stem cells or procedures to sell you, so in the hopes of making a dent in that, maybe some neutral education can be beneficial. Will do my best not to get zesty, but no promises 😎.

For a bit of hope, I didn't coin this, but someone mentioned stem cells will do for chronic disease what antibiotics have done for infectious disease and I believe that to be true. Meaning, probably, one day things like Alzheimers, spinal cord injury, TBI, CCI, you name it, may be a pretty simple fix at your local Walgreens, or maybe an Amazon robot that comes to your house. Sounds wild, but things are accelerating, and it could happen in some of our lifetimes.

Some people know, but I don't flaunt it on here. In my alter ego, I'm a B2B journalist on regen med. I get to interview these labs and clinics similar to how I do for this sub. What's being worked on behind the scenes in these labs is super cool. Maybe someday I'll connect the right lab to the right CCI hands...

If there's interest in this, LMK and I'll continue, though it'll be sporadic as usual. The topics I had in mind are:

  • What are mesenchymal stem cells, what do we know/don't know? Why are they so controversial? What does real stem cell research look like? (Hint - not "this" 🫠)
  • How are they regulated? It sounds boring but it's a huge deal. Once you understand this, the mess we all live in (do stem cells work for CCI?) begins to make a lot more sense. The regulatory environment is partially to blame for our situation and needs to change. Maybe that could make some good patient advocates.
  • What are the next-generation stem cell therapies? What are companies working on that might impact CCI care, and how far out is that?

Unless people want other topics. As always, I'm not a doctor or scientist, just a dingus on the internet, so talk to yours before taking on any new therapy.

With that, let's start with the basics:

What is a stem cell?

You may have heard of people getting "stem cells" and some miraculous yet mysteriously anecdotal recovery. Sometimes that's a PICL patient, Joe Rogan, or someone on Facebook who went to Mexico, and think to yourself, "I need to try stem cells".

Then, hopefully not the hard way, you learn how this side of healthcare colors well outside of the lines of traditional healthcare, and is rife with scams.

YGLT

It's been going on for decades, and sadly, CCI patients have been thrown right into the lion's den. However, on the positive side, CCI is a prime target for stem cell/regen med technology. We just need to get through this awkward early phase.

You should know first and foremost that "stem cells" is actually a very broad term; there are buttloads of types of stem cells that do many different things. Here are 2 examples of stem cells in action:

1 - Skin. Over your life, you've had 100s, maybe 1000s of pimples, scrapes, or bug bites that you scratched off, and this broke the skin enough to bleed. You damaged that skin.

But, as long as the cut isn't big enough to scar, it turned back into regular ol- skin, and you forgot it even happened. If it didn't, or if you could see a heatmap of all those, you'd be decimated, but you're not.

How? Skin stem cells! They live in your skin and regenerate normal skin when damaged. Pretty cool.

2 - Blood. When you donate blood, they take that away from you, it's gone. But, over a few weeks/months, your body magically "tops you back up" with more blood. You can do this again, and again, and people do (I hate needles so not me).

How? Blood stem cells! Also known as hematopoietic stem cells, which live in your bone marrow.

When the body senses you're low on blood, it tells those blood stem cells to turn into blood cells. Or, if the body senses an infection, it tells them to turn into white blood cells and go attack the infection. These are also useful as a stem cell therapy for people with blood disorders, you can transplant healthy people's blood stem cells into another with good success in things like Leukemia. Interestingly, if you're an organ donor and pass away, they may also take your blood stem cells for this use case, they just did the first deceased donor last year I believe with good success.

You have stem cells in the cornea of your eye, inside your colon, almost all over. But their use case is usually specific to that tissue. For instance, blood stem cells don't become skin, skin stem cells don't become blood, colon stem cells don't become nerves, etc.

Mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) are the biggest interest for CCI, you can think of them as orthopedic stem cells, though they have a few other use cases. Probably next article topic.

Where did they come from?

This is actually one of the most interesting pieces that almost no patient, and even many doctors, don't know much about, but how they got there in the first place is shaping the next generation of stem cell therapies.

Just as a sidenote which will tie into the below: Stem cell therapy, in a nutshell/completely broad stroke, is a crossroads between 2 sciences:

- Developmental biology: The study of how you became what you are, meaning how did the sperm/egg meet, form a baby that grows up, becomes an adult, then dies, and everything in between.

- Medicine: What can we apply to heal a person?

To answer the question of how you got those stem cells in the first place and why that matters for chronic conditions, we're gonna go into the weeds just a tiny bit, but all you need are the broad strokes so don't worry or ChatGPT for a simpler explanation.

In short, sperm meets egg, forms a single-celled organism called a Zygote. That Zygote is actually a stem cell, the most powerful type there is, and unlike the previously mentioned stem cells (blood, colon, etc) which are limited in what they can do, this will eventually turn into every single tissue of your body from tooth to blood, and create/store extra stem cells around those tissues for when things go wrong.

The very general process is like this:

Sperm meets egg, makes a zygote (one master "totipotent" stem cell) -> turns into an embryo (cluster of "pluripotent" stem cells that can turn into any type of specialized stem cell) -> specialized stem cells (blood, mesenchymal, colon, whatever type of tissue-specific stem cell) -> turn into tissue.

Ignore the left side, here's a quick chart of this process:

https://preview.redd.it/sbls4mcs6j8h1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=7b5c34edc7b83ab78508137757d31fbe46079f49

And don't forget, it also stores some for later. All from a single cell which is pretty incredible.

https://preview.redd.it/f4scrlm0qi8h1.png?width=1149&format=png&auto=webp&s=240f0aff0243723a7e09458cbd1b5e329ccde533

One thing that stem cells can do is divide/duplicate themselves over and over and over, similar to bacteria growing on your kitchen counter, and that's what the Zygote does as it travels down the fallopian tube.

When it lands in the uterus, it's now a cluster of super powerful stem cells that can turn into any type of those specialized stem cells (like the MSC, colon, etc), which will then turn into your tissues. The only thing it can't become is that single master stem cell (zygote) from the previous step that made these ones.

This cluster is called the embryo. This ability to turn into any type of stem cell is called "pluripotent", whereas something like a blood or mesenchymal stem cell which can only turn into a few things is called "multipotent".

How does this tie into the potential next generation of stem cell therapies?

We could use embryonic stem cells to make anything in your body. You could turn them into neural stem cells and build a spinal cord, you could turn them into a new set of pearly whites, really anything, with the right lab and scientist of course.

However, there's an ethical dilemma, because it can involve abortion (although usually IVF), and a lot of the funding was cut off for that reason.

But, about 20 years ago, scientists in Japan discovered something pretty amazing. They learned how to take adult skin cells, insert some genetics and the right lab conditions, and reverse them in time back into pluripotent stem cells, which can then be turned into anything like embryonic stem cells.

So you can take a sample of my skin, reverse it back to a pluripotent stem cell, multiply it a bunch of times, turn that into a neural stem cell, and build me a new spinal cord from my own cells and transplant it into me. In fact, Israel did that in mice a couple years ago with good results, and last year they apparently did it in humans, but no word on how that went probably for a long time.

https://regmedfoundation.org/2025/09/09/worlds-first-spinal-cord-transplant-to-take-place-in-israel-could-allow-patients-to-walk-again/

This whole thing is called "induced pluripotent stem cells" or iPSCs, as you're "inducing" them to become pluripotent. That discovery won the nobel prize.

Here's a really simplified chart of iPSCs:

https://preview.redd.it/zvr8ui2z6j8h1.png?width=548&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7440432fb4a24fd956f4a6a42f099232b7acd6b

How could this impact CCI?

So if the problem at its core is that ligaments have been damaged, causing the head to wiggle on the spine, irritating everything. The goal of most treatments is to take mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs), which are essentially musculoskeletal stem cells (fat, bone, muscle, cartilage, ligament, tendon, though they have other uses too), put them on the ligaments, and hope for the best.

But, at least the way it's done right now, it comes with many problems and may not work that well especially the older you are. There is a lot more to it than just spray the ligament with stem cells and hope for the best... stem cells aren't magic, and they don't speak english, so you can't just tell them what to do. They talk to each other through what's called cell signaling. An example of that would be inflammation, which gives off a chemical signal to those cells, telling them "we're busted up come help", the environment (also known as the "niche") matters a lot, and many other things.

To name some of the biggest problems I see with what we do today:

1 - The source: MSCs are found in many places. Fat is rich in them, but it requires an enzyme to break the fat away, and the FDA doesn't like that (this can be explained in the regulatory article, it's baffling). The uterus is also rich in them, menstrual blood contains MSCs, but there's a marketing problem with that amongst others (although it's picking up in the veterinary space).

Your bone marrow also has some MSCs, but it's a tiny tiny number. As you age, that number declines, and they become less functional, which is one reason kids "bounce back" while adults do not. They've also likely taken in every toxin/stress that you have. Every hot pocket, every polluted breath, etc.

Clinics whose tool is to take your bone marrow, spin it, and inject it that day will often highlight cases from older people in hopes of convincing you to swipe your card. Not that it can't or hasn't been shown to work, but I don't buy it, sorry.

Lastly, on different sources, not every MSC is the same, and I don't think we really know the differences in what a fat-derived MSC might do vs a bone marrow-derived or what your MSCs might do in my body. Cart is before the horse by a wide margin.

2 - Invasive harvest: Clinics will try to downplay this as NBD, but I've had several bone marrow aspirations. Getting your hips drilled into sucks. Additionally if you're doing PICL or another anesthesia-required procedure, you're doing double anesthesia that day. The second time you wake up, you feel like ass.

3 - No idea what you're getting: This carries from point 1. Some clinics will give you a "TNCC" with your bone marrow aspiration, but even that's rare. TNCC is total nucleated cell count, or a count of how many cells they got out of you. That is not a stem cell count, the MSCs in there, according to the peer-reviewed literature, is about .001-.01%. So if you got a TNCC of 1 billion, this means 10-100K MSCs.

That alone is a massive difference in dosage. I don't buy that a 10x potential difference in dosage doesn't affect outcomes... hence why, if you ask, the answer is never "it doesn't matter", but rather "we haven't seen any difference". Two very different answers. You really don't know what you got sadly.

But, that's just how things are in this first wave. The way things are going is likely to be mass-produced, off-the-shelf stem cell therapies, for which every lot (batch) will go through a third-party lab to characterize how many stem cells and what else is in there. They're actually required to give you the third-party lab results in Florida, though it's not the whole picture.

The economics of doing third-party lab testing for every bone marrow draw don't make sense, but when produced in bulk, they do, so that could be huge.

Now, how could iPSCs be used? For one, you could turn them into an almost unlimited amount of MSCs, without a bone marrow harvest. One company is making them for research purposes, calling them iMSCs:

https://www.reprocell.com/clinical-stem-cell-services/gmp-imsc-and-msc-production

But, on top of that, if you have nerve damage, maybe in your spinal cord/brainstem, you could also make neural stem cells and inject those too. Or maybe your jugular has taken a hit, you could engineer those too.

There's a future for that, but the current problem is the cost. If you're making them for an individual, each dose costs about $500K-1M per patient, though it's coming down with automation. Cost-per-dose is top of mind and there's some amazing tech in the pipe.

Additionally, there's the risk of tumors from pluripotent stem cells. Early on, China threw them into the market, and I believe a bunch of patients got cancer, and they halted a lot of it, but that part's getting better too.

The first iPSC-derived therapy in the world actually got approved in Japan just a few months ago, where most of this stuff is happening.

As a sidenote, I interviewed one of the japanese guys from the nobel prize lab. He's starting an iPSC company in california, and when trying to explain iPSCs to immigration, they were really suspicious because they had no idea wtf he was talking about lol. But he says in Japan, everybody knows them! That will change in time. Once that seal breaks... Anyways.

Is there something between today's bone marrow concentrate and iPSCs that could help CCI?

The answer is yes, probably, and I'll hold off on too much until the next post about mesenchymal stem cells, the various sources, and things you could do to them to make them potentially more effective.

That's when things get pretty controversial and scammy, yet hold a ton of potential if done right. We'll dig into why everybody goes to Mexico (I wouldn't do this) for stem cells, the new state laws, what's in the pipeline for MSCs (some companies seem to have actual tissue regeneration demonstrated; it's cool), and some pointers on how to stay safe as a patient.

Stay tuned!

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u/Jewald — 13 days ago

Tennesee doctor interview on the new stem cell laws. Things are changing...

https://www.actionnews5.com/video/2026/06/08/doctor-explains-new-law-that-establishes-stem-cell-therapy-tennessee/

That's Tennessee, Utah, Florida, Georgia, Wyoming, likely others with new laws allowing for new, potentially more powerful stem cell treatments outside of bone marrow concentrate.

Time will tell whether this is a net good or bad. The industry has long been notorious for grifters lining their pockets with half-truths, and that is accelerating.

However, the positive side is patients will have access to new therapies, which can be done responsibly. If I'm a physician, I'm tripling down on informed consent (long discussions on what we know/don't know), regularly gathering and publishing my data, and telling people this isn't the sort of thing to stretch yourself thin on... meaning don't give me your retirement, don't take out a second mortgage, and don't get your hopes up.

Ironically, any clinic that shares that attitude would crush it right now!

But regardless, good for patients to know what's happening, there's a lot changing at both state and federal level right now. Controlled deregulation seems to be a step in the right direction.

If, and it's a huge if, let's say mesenchymal stem cells from the umbilical cord works well the slew of things it's being studied for: TBI, autoimmune conditions, orthopedics, stroke, aging, etc. This is bigger than people understand because the production could be completely decentralized, without a big pharma supply chain.

I often think about my times volunteering in the Bangkok slums. My first day they took me on a tour, which I'll never forget. Those people have 0 access to anything... they can't afford food, let alone Pfizer.

A lot of them are very sick, and sadly, they progress until they die, and that is just life for a lot of people outside of our Western bubble. We likely have folks in similar situations on this sub.

This is the sort of thing that could be manufactured at a tiny rural hospital at a price that reflects the local purchasing power. But it's up to the developed nations to do things the right way and raise the scientific bar here, not just for CCI but regen med as a whole.

I'm pretty excited for the future of regen med, which will bleed into CCI.

u/Jewald — 10 days ago

43-year-old dad with cervical spinal cord compression and possible myelopathy — looking for similar experiences

Hi everyone,

I'm posting on behalf of my dad. He is 43 years old and recently had a cervical spine MRI. We have already visited multiple doctors and spine specialists, but we are getting different opinions. Some doctors recommend surgery because of the spinal cord compression, while others say to monitor it and avoid surgery for now. My dad is hesitant and wants to better understand what people with similar situations experienced.

His MRI showed:

  • C3-C4: Broad-based posterior disc protrusion causing significant spinal canal stenosis with compression of the cervical spinal cord. There is T2/STIR hyperintense signal within the cord, suggesting possible compressive myelopathic changes.
  • C4-C5: Disc protrusion causing central canal stenosis, mild cord compression, and similar cord signal changes.
  • C5-C6: Disc-osteophyte complex with disc protrusion causing canal narrowing and compression of the ventral aspect of the spinal cord.
  • C6-C7: Disc protrusion with foraminal narrowing but no significant cord compression.

His symptoms currently include:

  • Left shoulder numbness
  • Occasional burning sensation
  • Episodes of dizziness

We understand that every case is different, and we are not looking for medical advice. We are mainly hoping to hear from people who have had similar MRI findings and what their journey was like.

For anyone who has experienced cervical spinal stenosis, cervical myelopathy, or spinal cord compression:

  1. Did your MRI show spinal cord signal changes?
  2. What symptoms did you have before deciding on treatment?
  3. Were you advised to have surgery or monitor the condition?
  4. If doctors disagreed about surgery, how did you decide?
  5. If you had surgery, did it improve your symptoms and how was recovery?

Any personal experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

https://preview.redd.it/20kxswd6da9h1.png?width=1708&format=png&auto=webp&s=654f825080105c393008ccc44df8b7fd6dde65c0

https://preview.redd.it/gm4kfxd6da9h1.png?width=1538&format=png&auto=webp&s=68cbedeedbcf62832060d4d38395e14597768a26

https://preview.redd.it/npncrxd6da9h1.png?width=2453&format=png&auto=webp&s=dadb9595a950420b16a824bf94ce8328fd975019

https://preview.redd.it/28iidxd6da9h1.png?width=2442&format=png&auto=webp&s=28a52e8391fc2c0cd2c0ed94f1d6da081b8a2e6e

https://preview.redd.it/rabwnyd6da9h1.png?width=1310&format=png&auto=webp&s=743a955944aebd199c7e7db9758c52c30ae874f9

https://preview.redd.it/ib558zd6da9h1.png?width=2390&format=png&auto=webp&s=bd40a71b58603838c1eebacfe0c1cff64c29dcd1

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u/heyitsmorry1 — 11 days ago