For the purpose of this match, assume Yusuke has the same power he had in the final Spirit Gun against Toguro, but at full health. What do you think?
The main gist of this post is "ki control", the version used to explain why Dragon Ball characters aren't as destructive as they should be. Z didn't really touch on it other than some vague implications here and there, but Super has shed a bit more light into how this thing works. However, both are sorta conflicting.
Piccolo's explanation is easy to understand. Dragon Ball characters destroy planets (and probably other celestial bodies) by letting their attacks dig into the planet's crust; so as long as they detonate them on the surface, they should have no trouble using them. This checks out with canon material like Piccolo being scared that Gotenks will destroy the planet even though all he's doing is blasting "down", Frieza expecting Namek to blow up on its own because its core is gone, pretty much every time characters are amazed by objectively sub-planetary displays, and these two entries in supplementary material:
> Single Attack that Destroys the Earth \[chikyuu houkai no ichigeki\]
> First Appears Chapter 508 Category Ki Manipulation User(s) Majin Buu (pure) Characteristics A technique where he levitates a gigantic spherical ki over the palm of his hand, then strikes the ground with it. Through the ki's power, the magma within the Earth swells and explodes. This technique wiped out the Earth without leaving a trace behind. Freeza also uses a similar technique. (Daizenshuu 2, p. 216)
> The enormous planet, whose core had been shot out and could no longer maintain its shape, slowly crumbled and broke apart. After watching the dismembered pieces of the planet scatter with the flash of the explosion, Frieza smiled broadly.
On the other hand, Whis' explanation is that high level characters can hold back their collateral while fighting at full intensity (see Goku vs. Vegeta in the Super Hero movie)... but this doesn't apply to their big attacks, which he describes as "planet-shattering" in a way that suggests their normal attacks aren't.
(He did say "no transformations", but this should apply to pretty much everyone that's current Base Goku/Vegeta level and weaker. So, if you think they are SSG tier in base, then that's pretty much everyone in Z.)
This checks out with canon material like this conversation Vegeta has with #18 that suggests he wasn't planning on using planet-destroying power to fight her, Gohan having to save the boys and Piccolo from an explicitly sub-planet busting explosion, and Gotenks not only calling out a planet-busting attack, but also treating it as something that'd surely kill him. The "characters are amazed by sub-planetary displays" part can also work here, but not as easily.
With that said, which one makes more sense to you? Let me see your opinions in the comments.
The main gist of this post is "ki control", the version used to explain why Dragon Ball characters aren't as destructive as they should be. Z didn't really touch on it other than some vague implications here and there, but Super has shed a bit more light into how this thing works. However, both are sorta conflicting.
Piccolo's explanation is easy to understand. Dragon Ball characters destroy planets (and probably other celestial bodies) by letting their attacks dig into the planet's crust; so as long as they detonate them on the surface, they should have no trouble using them. This checks out with canon material like Piccolo being scared that Gotenks will destroy the planet even though all he's doing is blasting "down", Frieza expecting Namek to blow up on its own because its core is gone, pretty much every time characters are amazed by objectively sub-planetary displays, and these two entries in supplementary material:
> Single Attack that Destroys the Earth [chikyuu houkai no ichigeki]
> First Appears Chapter 508 Category Ki Manipulation User(s) Majin Buu (pure) Characteristics A technique where he levitates a gigantic spherical ki over the palm of his hand, then strikes the ground with it. Through the ki's power, the magma within the Earth swells and explodes. This technique wiped out the Earth without leaving a trace behind. Freeza also uses a similar technique. (Daizenshuu 2, p. 216)
> The enormous planet, whose core had been shot out and could no longer maintain its shape, slowly crumbled and broke apart. After watching the dismembered pieces of the planet scatter with the flash of the explosion, Frieza smiled broadly.
On the other hand, Whis' explanation is that high level characters can hold back their collateral while fighting at full intensity (see Goku vs. Vegeta in the Super Hero movie)... but this doesn't apply to their big attacks, which he describes as "planet-shattering" in a way that suggests their normal attacks aren't.
(He did say "no transformations", but this should apply to pretty much everyone that's current Base Goku/Vegeta level and weaker. So, if you think they are SSG tier in base, then that's pretty much everyone in Z.)
This checks out with canon material like this conversation Vegeta has with #18 that suggests he wasn't planning on using planet-destroying power to fight her, Gohan having to save the boys and Piccolo from an explicitly sub-planet busting explosion, and Gotenks not only calling out a planet-busting attack, but also treating it as something that'd surely kill him. The "characters are amazed by sub-planetary displays" part can also work here, but not as easily.
With that said, which one makes more sense to you? Let me see your opinions in the comments.
This is something that I made up recently. I went through the Dragon Ball manga saga by saga, and tried to depict the escalation as consistently as I could. I'm pretty much fishing for opinions on it.
| Saga | Physical Strength | Speed | Ki Attacks |
|---|---|---|---|
| Hunt for the Dragon Balls | [Finishes a combo attack by smashing a person through a chain of three-foot thick rock pillars](https://imgur.com/a/osI4MJa) | [Clears a 100m track in 8.5 seconds; approximately 12 m/s](https://imgur.com/a/rkkiYLn) | [Totals a car](https://imgur.com/a/GjtxEbV) \[Limit\] [Levels a small mountain and obliterates a few hundred million cubic meters of rock](https://imgur.com/a/Zfdhk13) |
| Training Island+ | [Clears several hundred meters in a single bound;](https://imgur.com/a/C1pwCae) [Kicks a hole in a brick wall big enough for a child to walk through](https://i.imgur.com/sRylW4q.jpg) | [Runs behind a person faster than they can react](https://imgur.com/a/mkzNyvw) [Catches bullets bare-handed](https://i.imgur.com/OgEoznv.jpg) | [Blasts a rock crater big enough to fit a person and propels a submarine](https://imgur.com/a/YfbLs5L) \[Limit\] [Blows up the moon;](https://imgur.com/a/C1JSHRB) [later statements suggest that blowing up celestial bodies is done by digging into their cores and triggering a chain reaction](https://imgur.com/Pdzk17m) |
| Fortuneteller Baba+ | [Clears a few dozen meters and jumps through several feet of solid steel](https://i.imgur.com/QaPjOEZ.jpg) | [Rushes forward to throw a kick that a bullet-timer struggles to follow](https://imgur.com/a/Tr9vBrt) [Fires eight seperate blows that are invisible to the watching crowd and presumably other bullet-timing superhumans](https://imgur.com/a/OOFlb48) | [Blast a crater bigger than a person on a stone arena](https://imgur.com/a/BnynaQf) \[Limit\] [Destroys another stone arena and obliterates several thousand cubic meters of rock and earth](https://imgur.com/a/0Tbkino) |
| King Piccolo | [Punches a person hard enough to form a five-meter wide crater](https://imgur.com/a/JkCHrbX) | [Nearly too fast for a bullet-timer with further enhanced perception to follow](https://imgur.com/a/yuqNIFM) | [Wipes out a few hundred meters of city](https://imgur.com/a/L84rB12) \[Limit\] [Almost completely levels a few kilometer wide city](https://imgur.com/a/CKu2TXJ) |
| Piccolo Jr+ | \[Limit\] [Tears a small ship into pieces;](https://imgur.com/a/8QF8ikf) [similar ships can smash rock craters several dozen meters wide](http://imgur.com/a/LBJTb) | [Keeps up with a cloud that flies at Mach 1.5 while wearing heavy clothing](https://imgur.com/a/QxA6wOj) | [Obliterates a rock plateau about a dozen meters wide and carves a trench hundreds of times as long ](https://imgur.com/a/nAb1OmU) \[Limit\] [Levels a several kilometer wide island that had a city and a few dozen mountains on its surface](https://imgur.com/a/7Y0dJoa) \[Limit, Piercing\] [Takes out a chunk of a mountain and leaves a few hundred meter wide hole in its side](https://imgur.com/a/Df5WDF5) |
| Saiyan | [Kicks a person through a several dozen meter tall rock pillar and puts a hole in another one of similar size](https://imgur.com/a/pNMJ3hy) | [Clears a one million kilometer long road in 28 hours, coming out to a little short of Mach 30; should be arbitrarily faster when not running a marathon](https://imgur.com/O6YeR6l.jpg) | [Levels a city](https://imgur.com/a/nCTFcIo) [with narrative and visual cues suggesting a lot more destruction](https://imgur.com/IK3YvEa) \[Limit\] [Fires a beam that threatens to destroy the planet, presumably by carving into its center](https://imgur.com/a/V3RVCdi) |
| Namek | [Throws a person into the ground hard enough to create a crater a few hundred meters wide](https://imgur.com/a/znDhNjx) | [Instantly catches up to a small object that was thrown by a person](https://imgur.com/a/7Skwkak) [that can throw bigger things through rock hills](https://imgur.com/a/v2yfNSP) | [Creates an explosion of massive proportions, presumably island-dwarfing](https://imgur.com/a/j5xBbwe) [Carves a crater that's seemingly visible on the planet's curvature and presumably obliterates dozens of cubic kilometers of rock](https://imgur.com/a/2a8mXx7) |
| Frieza | [Kicks a person through a rock island a few hundred meters wide and carves a large trail through it into another one](https://imgur.com/a/gvpRzZS) [Potential Physical Strength Meta]Completely reverses the momentum of a ki ball that would implicitly have drilled into the planet's center and ruptured its core | [Escapes from the center of a paralyzing ki ball and crosses several kilometers the instant it detonates](https://imgur.com/a/tGnq4AG) | [Destroys a several hundred meter wide island and reinforces the fact that even Saiyan Saga level characters can easily delete landmasses of this size](https://imgur.com/a/qBsBugc) [Carves a several kilometer deep trench that splits the ocean into two and stretches beyond the horizon; narration suggests that it stretches along the length of the planet](https://imgur.com/a/Y88Ds8L) [Carves a several hundred meter wide hole into the center of the planet and excavates thousands of cubic kilometers of earth, before blowing up its core](https://imgur.com/a/OS7imU3) |
| Androids | [Slices through a person that can get kicked through giant landmasses like he is a stick of butter](http://imgur.com/XRGWDZQ) | \[Limit\] [Travelling ten thousand kilometers in less than a second is something that can only be achieved by teleportation at this point; and this stays consistent for a long time](https://imgur.com/20z4T1Q.jpg) | [Obliterates a chain of islands, all of which are several kilometers wide](https://imgur.com/a/hhiKS) \[Limit\] [Carves a several kilometer long and several hundred meter wide trench with a beam that could have destroyed the planet](https://imgur.com/a/JyIUUx6) \[Limit\] [Fires a beam that could destroy the solar system;](https://i.imgur.com/tLXawqF.jpg) [the beam that overpowered it dug a trench of massive proportions along the ground till it left the planet's orbit, likely several kilometers wide](https://imgur.com/a/PXY8WH6) |
| Buu | [Spikes a person into the ground hard enough to create a several hundred meter wide impact crater;](https://imgur.com/a/N04ikUw) [Spikes a several foot wide ball through the planet till it creates a country sized hole upon exit from the other side, though this could be stylized](https://imgur.com/a/CFYYkDM) | [Circles the globe a few dozen times in less than 29 minutes; placing his speed at Mach 1000 at the bare minimum](https://imgur.com/a/UtsrNM7) | \[Could be Physical Strength\] [Scrubs a several kilometer wide city off the surface of the Earth by exhaling really hard, could do the same to the planet if he tried](https://imgur.com/a/TNNkeZC) [Fires a beam that seemingly destroyed a tenth of the planet's surface, enough to destroy over a *billion* cubic kilometers of rock](https://imgur.com/a/AJbFRAi) [Fires a several kilometer wide beam that could have destroyed the planet](https://imgur.com/a/P9RDWC8) [Fires a several meter wide ki ball into the planet's center and blows it up completely](https://imgur.com/a/5TJ2WfM) |
Tell me your thoughts in the comments.
Some person PMed me today, saying that they accidentally reported me because they mistook me for a person that stole their account. Apparently, I was supposed to go and meet a mod on Discord to appeal it for some reason. I didn't think much of it at first, but the mod asked me to change my account email address, log out and fill out some personal information (despite saying he wouldn't take any personal information.) That's when alarm bells rang in my head, so I quickly changed my e-mail back, and closed the chat. Did I do the right thing?
To be honest, this is just an excuse to show off this table I made. Think of this as a guideline for the question in the OP.
Once again, remember this is feats-only. You can use statements from other characters if you want, but you must justify them. Apart from that, knock yourself out.
Just to be clear, this is Goku from the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, after his fight with Piccolo Jr. He's going to against the Yusuke that nearly beat Yomi. Who wins?
I figured that instead of waiting for the next "Can insert low-tier Dragon Ball character solo the verse?" to pop up and having to explain that, No, Mr. Satan doesn't stand a chance against Yujiro; we could get a character from another somewhat realistic (somewhat is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) martial arts franchise. How would he do? Let me see your thoughts in the comments.
I wish there was a tag for powerscaling-related questions... Anyway, a common take in this fandom is that while Goku and co are narratively supposed to be capable of destroying celestial bodies (moons, planets, solar systems, galaxies), they generally don't *feel* that strong. That's due to a number of reasons which I'm not ready to go into, but how would you have them feel like they are that strong? Or, for those who think they shouldn't have gotten that strong to begin with, change things to prevent that type of escalation? Let me see your thoughts in the comments.
I wish there was a tag for powerscaling-related questions... Anyway, a common take in this fandom is that while Goku and co are narratively supposed to be capable of destroying celestial bodies (moons, planets, solar systems, galaxies), they generally don't *feel* that strong. That's due to a number of reasons which I'm not ready to go into, but how would you have them feel like they are that strong? Or, for those who think they shouldn't have gotten that strong to begin with, change things to prevent that type of escalation? Let me see your thoughts in the comments.
I knew Sukuna's glazers were prone to leeching Yuji's feats, but this was a new one. What do you think?
• This is Goku immediately after his fight with Piccolo Jr, but fully healed with his gi intact. He can pull off his weights at any point during the fight.
• Every match takes place in the already destroyed Tenkaichi Budokai arena. In every round, both combatants will be assumed to be in-character, but won't be bummed about killing the other person.
• To ward off any comments about this being a mismatch or stomp thread, Goku will not get scaling to either of the two moon-busting feats, but every other feat is valid.
• Goku will get a Senzu Bean every round he wins.
• The matches are as follows:
Round 1: Son Goku vs. Denji (War Devil Arc, Denjiman)
Round 2: Son Goku vs. Yuji Itadori (Modulo)
Round 3: Son Goku vs. Yusuke Urameshi (Demon Tournament, fighting Yomi)
Round 4: Son Goku vs. Ichigo Kurosaki (Thousand Year Blood War)
Round 5: Son Goku vs. Naruto Uzumaki (War Arc, Six Paths Sage Mode)
It's still interesting that Whis still tells them not use "planet-shattering" attacks like the Kamehameha (in a way that suggests their normal attacks aren't), but this pretty much establishes that "ki control" is true to some extent.
This might sound like an agenda post, but it's not. Let's say Gege stated in some interview that Yuji surpassed both Sukuna and Gojo, and that he could (maybe) take them on at the same time; and that Dabura still wasn't on his level after his fight with Mahoraga. What would your reaction be? Would you agree with the statement, or not for whatever reason? Let me hear this sub's thoughts on the matter.
This is basically EoZ Goku, not taking BoG, RoF, Daima, Super or GT scaling into account. You can provide an answer for the low end or high end interpretation seperately, or you can decide to simply provide an answer for one end. I'm not your mother.
Physical Strength/Toughness:
Kicked Frieza through two islands in base form.
Scales to Fat Buu in Super Saiyan 3, who tore through several buildings by running.
[Strength Feat?] Scales to Fat Buu, who levelled a city by exhaling really hard.
Speed:
Destructive Power:
Physical Strength/Toughness:
Shattered hills with the shockwaves of his punches while fighting Majin Vegeta.
Gets hit hard enough to reshape the landscape by Kid Buu.
Created several country-sized shockwaves in his fight with Kid Buu.
Speed:
Destructive Power:
Blew away Vegeta's planet-busting Galick Gun in the Saiyan Saga.
Said to be capable of destroying the Earth with a full power Kamehameha in the Cell Games.
Scales above Super Perfect Cell, whose Kamehameha could destroy the solar system.
Well, that's it. Let's see who you got.
I enjoy battleboarding, and Dragon Ball was my first anime, so it makes sense that it would become one of the verses I regularly battleboard with. When I was new to the hobby, I pretty much just ran with the popular meta of Piccolo/moon -> Vegeta/planet -> Cell/solar system -> Buu/galaxy -> Beerus/universe, but I slowly became drawn to arguments to the contrary like split durability, core busting or the one I'm adopting right now, variable outputs. While I thought there was merit to all these alternative theories, I also had it at the back of my mind that just going with the flow and acknowledging ki control would be much easier than having to make up theories to explain why Piccolo can be a mountain buster and moon buster at the same time. Add the fact that some of the people who backed said theories always seemed to have some sort of... well, not resentment, but they always seemed like people who were familiar with Dragon Ball not because they enjoyed it, but because they wanted to prove that it wasn't all that. Of course, I might be wrong, but that's not important here.
A few months ago, I stumbled upon this old YouTube channel, the ones that do AMVs and stuff. It had a playlist of every major Dragon Ball fight, all the way from Goku fighting Roshi's cousin (wonder what happened to that guy) in the 21st Budokai to Goku killing Kid Buu with the Super Spirit Bomb. I killed about 2-3 hours to watch everything from beginning till the end, and while it was a good watch (Hirudegarn is the best movie villain. I have spoken.), I came out with the conclusion that Dragon Ball just... isn't suited for cosmic level power. It's not that the fights themselves were unimpressive. Pretty much any ki blast of note would consistently create a hill or mountain-sized kaboom in the distance by the time I got to Vegeta's fights on Namek, and the Buu cycle (Buu walked so Sukuna could run) was epic enough I could buy any of the people involved destroying the planet with a dramatic Kamehameha or giant enough ki sphere. But according to the narrative, all of that is worthless. Frieza and Goku had their final fight right above the country-sized crater he drilled into Namek's mantle, and as epic as that is, it's hard to enjoy that when you have it in the back of your mind that Raditz would do even more damage if not for "ki control". It might be valid, but it's lame.
This isn't related to the main post, but one solution I regularly see is giving Goku and co. the ability to breathe in space so that they can find deserted solar systems to destroy or go into other dimensions and do all that sweet collateral damage, and... I don't know if I agree? I like the idea from the movies that being blasted into the Sun is a death sentence for any Dragon Ball character, and the most important event in DB history is Frieza's destruction of Planet Vegeta. There's no real need to make any statements beyond that in my honest opinion. Leave planet-shattering punches and galaxy-destroying shuriken for the verse with the appropriate choreography for it. It's not like any of the universes Dragon Ball rivals in battleboarding are consistently anywhere near that strong either.
I enjoy battleboarding, and Dragon Ball was my first anime, so it makes sense that it would become one of the verses I regularly battleboard with. When I was new to the hobby, I pretty much just ran with the popular meta of Piccolo/moon -> Vegeta/planet -> Cell/solar system -> Buu/galaxy -> Beerus/universe, but I slowly became drawn to arguments to the contrary like split durability, core busting or the one I'm adopting right now, variable outputs. While I thought there was merit to all these alternative theories, I also had it at the back of my mind that just going with the flow and acknowledging ki control would be much easier than having to make up theories to explain why Piccolo can be a mountain buster and moon buster at the same time. Add the fact that some of the people who backed said theories always seemed to have some sort of... well, not resentment, but they always seemed like people who were familiar with Dragon Ball not because they enjoyed it, but because they wanted to prove that it wasn't all that. Of course, I might be wrong, but that's not important here.
A few months ago, I stumbled upon this old YouTube channel, the ones that do AMVs and stuff. It had a playlist of every major Dragon Ball fight, all the way from Goku fighting Roshi's cousin (wonder what happened to that guy) in the 21st Budokai to Goku killing Kid Buu with the Super Spirit Bomb. I killed about 2-3 hours to watch everything from beginning till the end, and while it was a good watch (Hirudegarn is the best movie villain. I have spoken.), I came out with the conclusion that Dragon Ball just... isn't suited for cosmic level power. It's not that the fights themselves were unimpressive. Pretty much any ki blast of note would consistently create a hill or mountain-sized kaboom in the distance by the time I got to Vegeta's fights on Namek, and the Buu cycle (Buu walked so Sukuna could run) was epic enough I could buy any of the people involved destroying the planet with a dramatic Kamehameha or giant enough ki sphere. But according to the narrative, all of that is worthless. Frieza and Goku had their final fight right above the country-sized crater he drilled into Namek's mantle, and as epic as that is, it's hard to enjoy that when you have it in the back of your mind that Raditz would do even more damage if not for "ki control". It might be valid, but it's lame.
This isn't related to the main post, but one solution I regularly see is giving Goku and co. the ability to breathe in space so that they can find deserted solar systems to destroy or go into other dimensions and do all that sweet collateral damage, and... I don't know if I agree? I like the idea from the movies that being blasted into the Sun is a death sentence for any Dragon Ball character, and the most important event in DB history is Frieza's destruction of Planet Vegeta. There's no real need to make any statements beyond that in my honest opinion. Leave planet-shattering punches and galaxy-destroying shuriken for the verse with the appropriate choreography for it. It's not like any of the universes Dragon Ball rivals in battleboarding are consistently anywhere near that strong either.
