u/Proper_Armadillo9583

I think everyone knows by now that Filoni has essentially taken over Star Wars. The actual real Star Wars, the one led by the films and beloved characters from Luke, Leia, Han, etc., to Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme, etc., is long gone. It's merely a background afterthought in the modern Filoni playground that is Disney Star Wars, where his characters rule. Ahsoka basically appears in 90% of media and has far more importance nowadays than Luke (when was the last time Luke did anything of real importance again?) or even Anakin. Filoni's other OCs are slowly replacing existing characters, like Din Djarin replacing Boba Fett or the Bad Batch replacing Delta Squad. And I always wondered why Disney fans ate it up.

Just yesterday, I was arguing with someone over the inhibitor chip question. And, despite me repeatedly asserting the fact that basic evidence proves that Lucas never considered the idea from 2005 to 2014 that Order 66 was brainwashing, that TCW retconned it, and that assuming that people (including people talking to Lucas on the daily) got Revenge of the Sith wrong for nine years while Lucas had some "master plan" was absurd, my opponent was unable to conceive the idea that Order 66 was brainwashing, and he mentioned the idea that the chips "replaced their personalities" which I found absurd because the clones didn't have their TCW personalities until 2008. And today, I stumbled across a post on the base Star Wars subreddit where Ahsoka and Anakin were portrayed in the whole Mortis Arc thing as the father and daughter (curiously Starkiller was portrayed as the son), which I was baffled by because while they don't fit the roles from the show, it seems absurd to put Ahsoka and Starkiller of all people over, you know, Leia and Luke. Well, it made me realize something.

How many people who defend Filoni nowadays grew up with TCW and are unable to consider any other media without it? Imagine a TCW fan who watched the actual films years later. Remember, Filoni did a remarkable job sidelining Obi-Wan, Anakin, and the other characters to just about make TCW center on Ahsoka and the clones. To this individual, Ahsoka is basically THE main character of Star Wars. She's the one who participates in 99% of TCW arcs, and she has a bunch of her own. TCW portrays the galaxy revolving around her; her expulsion is what drives Anakin to the dark, while Padmé is little more than a side character. Now, this fan goes to watch the actual films. He is unable to separate the films from TCW. Hence come the assumptions like Order 66 not working without the chips (because to this man, it's impossible for the clones NOT to be like they were in TCW), and when he sees Anakin's fall, he is so dissociated from what the movie is telling him that he ties it to Ahsoka. "Ahsoka is basically Anakin's little sister or daughter. Who's this Padmé gal? She was in that one Rush Clovis arc, I guess. Why doesn't she dump Anakin?" And, eventually, the dissociation reaches a point where the films become secondary to the show. The Star Wars story isn't about the Skywalkers; it's about Ahsoka and the clones, and the Skywalkers are secondary characters. Remember, nostalgia is one hell of a drug, and these people are addicted to it.

So in comes Disney Star Wars. Filoni, having full control even really as far back as under KK, fully commits to Star Wars being his playground and only makes the actual Star Wars characters appear to try to bring back older fans, though they won't budge. When Disney screws up the sequels, pretty much the entire older Star Wars fandom leaves and becomes distant, no longer really participating in the modern fandom. Who remains? The people who grew up with Dave Filoni's works, those who are being pleased by Filoni following his shenanigans. To these people, the fact that Luke Skywalker hasn't had any real presence since TLJ (and that's TLJ, so calling that "Luke" is questionable) isn't a big deal because Luke Skywalker is a nobody, some random guy from the films. The protagonists are Ashoka and Rex and Ezra and Sabine. Darth Vader is just some guy who appears to be scary sometimes, and Anakin can only be his TCW jocky self. Remember all the hype around Ahsoka and Vader fighting in Rebels? People who grew up with the films or EU couldn't care; it was people who grew up with TCW who saw that as incredible and way better than anything else.

I know this is probably an obvious conclusion to most, but I just needed to get this out there. I now understand WHY Filoni has the massive fanbase he does. Likewise, I'm saddened these people aren't willing to look at the films without TCW or read the EU and not make judgements about it.

Now obviously, the external reasoning is obvious in that A New Hope was released decades before the establishment of the clones let alone the 501st. The stormtroopers canonically went through flip-flop phases of being clones and being conscripts through the evolution of the EU: The pretty famous Soldiers of the Empire! article in Poster Monthly #4 had Anthony Fredrickson directly call them clones, which was contradicted by other mentions of conscription including Zeth Durron in the Jedi Academy trilogy; by 2002, WotC released their ANH card set which names all stormtroopers in the film explicitly as "clone stormtrooper" and after RotS Lucas did a couple interviews here and there explaining he did view the stormtroopers in the films as clones, though later EU media would overall largely contradict this and lean more with the angle of clones being slowly phased out for other clones and mainly conscripts.

Battlefront II was the main source on the formation of the 501st before and after the Empire. As stated in the Kamino mission:

>Future clones would be bred from a variety of templates. Though the 501st itself remained pure, the rest of the Imperial Army gradually became more and more diverse. We never really got used to the new guys.

Battlefront II also confirms it was Vader's Fist which boarded the Tantive. Now, obviously assuming that characters like Daine Jir or Praji are not part of the Fist and rather other officers from the Devastator, that still doesn't explain why the commander (or lieutenant or whatever role he does have) who tells Vader the Death Star plans aren't in the Tantive's main computers is voiced by Terry McGovern in an explicitly American accent, or why the stormtroopers who stun Leia also have an American accent, etc. Has this ever been tackled?

And I must wholeheartedly agree. Modern Star Wars has an obsession with trying to make it obvious the Empire is like the nazis with constant banners and logos everywhere, but it makes vehicles and ships look off and almost insecure that they're not recognizable.

The Original Trilogy was able to make it clear that the Empire was authoritarian and soulless without relying on putting its logo everywhere. In fact it purposefully goes against the Prequels using the Republic logo a lot.

Anyways, great video as always. Dude never misses a beat.

Pre-TCW. The chip would probably make all this irrelevant.

When one takes a look at all the different "commando" clones which were given more individuality, it's striking how many of the ones we know about ended up sacrificing their loyalty to the Republic to where their supposed skills became irrelevant. Consider for a sec:

• All of the Null-Classes, which were given to Kal Skirata and became major liabilities.
• Most of the Alpha-Classes. We know of only three which seemed to be relatively loyal: Alpha (who even then was highly independent, deciding to destroy the clone batches due to Jango's orders rather than what the Republic desired, and may have refused Order 66), Jangotat, and possibly Fordo if he's an Alpha. All the other ones were far too independent, ranging from wanting to merely leave the Republic to being Spar who literally became Mandalore for a period. This was such an issue that the Republic had to waste manpower with shadow trooper squads tracking down rogue ARCs.
• A bunch of the RC units. Omega Squad had Darman fall in love with a Jedi and the team almost completely desert, being foiled and forced to work for the Empire against their will. Ion Squad completely refused Order 66 and Vader had to go there in person. Hyperion and Yayax Squad also deserted. Delta Squad was on the verge of deserting for Sev before Boss put them in their place. We know of maybe a couple RC squads at best that followed Order 66 and became Imperial, like Aiwha Squad. In fact, the idea of letting them be trained by Mandalorians and Corellians seems quite horrid retrospectively, as unlike Jango who may have the motivation against the Jedi or due to payment by Dooku, these people all have different agendas they could implant into these commandos.

I know a large chunk of these probably come down to happening during the Traviss era when every clone was super Mandalorian and defected. Content not affected by that era had more loyal clones (like Cestus Deception's Jangotat, Genndywars' Fordo or Clone Wars Adventures' Aiwha Squad). But frankly, it seems like commandos were a terrible idea, as the ones we do see seem to have overwhelmingly become a thorn in the Republic/Empire's side.

Just got this video randomly recommended and I quite like the song. Haven't been able to identify it with any tools though. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance.

I've been wandering about this for a little bit and I wanted some other opinions as I often do. So, reading about Naboo's culture, I noticed that despite them having a clear military security force including starfighters (and not just the N-1s if we follow Galactic Battlegrounds), stories like The Starfighter Trap in Gamer 1 portray the Naboo as fervently pacifist to the point of essentially disowning sons if they indulge themselves in any militarist occupation (granted, it could be exclusive of the family in that specific story but we do get hints there's more). However, they don't seem particularly heartbroken like Padme does in The Phantom Menace when driving the Federation out requires an all-out warfare including collaboration with the Gungans (which would presumably be seen as violent monsters since they are actively far more willing to deploy military assets than the Naboo per at least that story).

So I started thinking, would Naboo change its mind later on? The total conquest of the planet by the Trade Federation could easily push a lot of people to support the Military Creation Act and the fact Palpatine, a beloved local celebrity as the senator for the planet, was selected as Chancellor would breed a lot of nationalistic fervor for the man. And then of course we have the repeated assassination attempts on Padme through AotC and whatever different battles occurred on Taboo during the Clone Wars, as well as tragedies suffered by Padme herself, now turned senator (note that we know that Nute has a vendetta against her so who knows how many things he tried.)

Then we reach the Imperial era. For one, Padme dies due to broken heart but through Imperial propaganda that could be used to blame the Jedi and push the Naboo more towards supporting the Empire. We know for a fact that Panaka became Moff, and while that largely happened because of his personal attachment to Sidious, it's likely he would gain a lot of support as a national war hero and aide to the beloved Padme. But then we also know that there was a Rebellion brewing in Naboo, per Galaxies and Battlefront II where the new queen, Apailana, gets assassinated by the Fist for harboring Jedi fugitives, which we do not know how that affected the Empire's reputation. We also, as far as I know, know not how they reacted to Alderaan. We do see a massive celebration at the end of RotJ but that cannot be at that point in time since per other media Panaka remains Moff of the Naboo sector and an Imperial Remnant for a long period until he retires when Naboo officially joins the New Republic years later, meaning either Panaka got kicked off his own center of power or that scene happens in the future.

So, what would most of the Naboo be at the time of the Empire? Militarists? Pacifists? Imperials? Rebels? Would there still be a lot of jingoism for Palpatine, Padme and Panaka? Would Luke and Leia being confirmed as Padme's sons push people to rebel or even leave Naboo, or would the Naboo system of monarchy keep most people attached to whatever (presumably pro-Imperial) regent rules after Apailana?

Less of a canon thing and more just my opinion on how these ships are and how I think they ought to be.

Anyone who has watched RotS will very well know that the Eta-2 Actis and the Alpha-3 Nimbus V-Wing both serve as evolutionary steps to the TIE Fighter. This is obvious from not just their design, but also the fact that the V-Wing can be heard making the iconic TIE noise at the end of RotS, presumably a few years into the Imperial reign. However, despite these being intended by George Lucas to be precursors to the TIE Fighter in the same way the ARC-170 is a precursor to the X-Wing, these are all Kuat Drive Yards products rather than Sienar Fleet Systems products even with all their aesthetic similarities and mirror designs. The supposed explanation is that these designs MAY have inspired the TIE Fighter, or that they were sold to Sienar, but that's ridiculous. No other fighter has acted like this, and furthermore it doesn't make sense when we consider again that the V-Wing at the end of RotS makes a TIE sound, distinctively produced by its Twin Ion Engine system, which means these are prototype V-Wings outfitted with it. It feels quite odd that Sienar would be using old ships from another company to give new revolutionary sublight thrusting technology to.

I believe the explanation as to why these vehicles are Kuati rests in an unfortunate set of decisions by Curtis Saxton during the writing of his Cross-Sections books. Both the AotC and RotS Incredible Cross-Sections books I think I've traced the first mention of company associations to each vehicle. Now, the thing with the Eta-2 and the Alpha-3 is that, by their names, one can tell that they're intended to be evolutions to the Delta-7, the starfighter flown by Obi-Wan through AotC. This starfighter is also Kuati per the AotC cross-sections. I believe this choice was done because of the triangular ship design: firstly, it mirrors concept art by Colin Cantwell which has the original design for the Star Destroyer (later readded into Disney as the Arrestor Cruiser) shoot out smaller triangular ships, which act as starfighters. Secondly, AotC also introduces the Acclamator, which is a clear precursor to the later Venator and Imperator-Class Star Destroyers. Hence, the film seems to be setting up a trend of triangular ships leading to the final ISD design from the OT, which may be why Saxton decided to make the ship Kuati.

However, when RotS came along, the Eta-2 took the role of the new Jedi Interceptor which the Delta-7 had once had. Despite its visual similarities to the TIE Fighter such as the folding wings that mirror the TIE wings when deployed or the canopy shape, Saxton (be it purposefully or mistakenly) decided to make it Kuati (why he did it is unclear, perhaps due to the visual similarity of having the astromech on the side or perhaps just to continue the trend of Kuati ships. Another reason for this may have been because of Saxton's interpretation that Kuat and Rothana would be producing the majority of Clone Wars vessels as part of their secret deal with Sidious, with the ARC being an exception made as even Saxton saw clearly that it's a precursor to the X-Wing.). Similarly, the V-Wing took the role of the interceptor starfighter design for the clones, and as such he also decided to make it Kuati even though the design very clearly has a lot of notes leading to the TIE. Giving them both names that directly connect them to the Delta-7 in lineage, he put them firmly in the KDY lineage.

And so we got stuck with what George Lucas very clearly intended to lead to the TIE Fighter being largely irrelevant to the TIE Fighter. Funnily enough the Star Courier from Episode I, also intended to be a TIE precursor, was correctly identified by David Reynolds as a Sienar product.

In short, I believe that through basic logic and film theming, these two ships OUGHT to be technically Sienar rather than Kuati, possibly even the Delta-7 too; but Saxton's choices have caused a small, although slightly mendable, hole in the intended visual storytelling.

For a while, I've been tracking what I think are three distinct interpretations of Order 66 that have appeared throughout the years per different writers. I wanted to ask which one would be the most logical choice Palpatine would make for his galactic plan to eliminate as many Jedi as possible. First, some context on the three differing interpretations:

1. Clones are both aware and actively ready to do the deed: This seems suggested by the film itself, the novel, and Battlefront II 2005. In the film, Palpatine tells Commander Cody: "The time has come. Execute Order 66." Now, while this could be Palpatine gloating, using "the time has come" implies that at least the Clone Commanders were aware of the order being something which would inevitably come at some point. The RotS novelization goes further:

   > A holoscan appeared on the palm of his gauntlet: a hooded man. "It is time," the holoscan said. "Execute Order Sixty-Six." Cody responded as he had been trained since before he'd even awakened in his creche-school. "It will be done, my lord." The holoscan vanished. Cody stuck the comlink back into its concealed recess and frowned down toward where Kenobi rode his dragonmount into selflessly heroic battle. Cody was a clone. He would execute the order faithfully, without hesitation or regret. But he was also human enough to mutter glumly, "Would it have been too much to ask for the order to have come through before I gave him back the bloody lightsaber. . . ?"

   Cody is actively aware that Order 66 would happen and has been trained for it, although still retaining his independence to be able to grumble about Sidious' decision. Battlefront II also has a similar take where the clones actively know about Order 66 arriving per the 501st journal entries (Remember that Order 66 was actively given to all troopers during the beginning of the Jedi Temple raid, so them knowing before even arriving on the steps means they were aware beforehand): >Mygeeto: What Ki-Adi-Mundi didn't know however was that our unit of the 501st was really after an experimental Mygeetan power source that the Chancellor wanted for his "superlaser." Keeping Mundi in the dark wasn't easy; the Jedi had become increasingly wary of the Chancellor's doings, and were on the lookout for the slightest hint of treachery. Just like the rest of them, though, he never caught a whiff of what was really going on, until it was far too late. The success of the mission on Mygeeto was something of a revelation for the men of the 501st. Suddenly, we realized that the Jedi could be fooled. And if they could be fooled, they could be killed.

   >Felucia: When the 501st was finally rotated out of Felucia, Aayla Secura made a point of seeing us off personally, calling us "the bravest soldiers she had ever seen." It's a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye.

   > Coruscant: What I remember about the rise of the Empire is... is how quiet it was. During the waning hours of the Clone Wars, the 501st Legion was discreetly transferred back to Coruscant. It was a silent trip. We all knew what was about to happen and what we were about to do. Did we have any doubts? Any private, traitorous thoughts? Perhaps, but no one said a word. Not on the flight back to Coruscant, not when Order 66 came down, and not when we marched into the Jedi Temple. Not a word.

   The notable aspect of Battlefront II's interpretation is how the clones seem actively ashamed of their future actions. This seems to contradict both the novel's interpretation, where at least Cody seems not to have felt anything for Kenobi when betraying him. Now, the big thing with this explanation is: do only the Commanders know, or do all clones do? Could a clone be compelled to confess, or is their intense biological programming capable of keeping them quiet out of sheer loyalty to Sidious? Do RCs and ARCs know and comply with it, or would they rat it out sometimes out of disagreement with the Republic?

2. Clones are aware of the Order, but it's just one of many: Also known as the Contingency Orders interpretation. Supposedly began by the RotS junior novelization, although I question that the following passage can be interpreted only that way:

   >Darth Sidious—Chancellor Palpatine—stood alone in his enormous office. He’d sent his new apprentice and a battalion of clone troops to the Jedi Temple. That would take care of the Jedi on Coruscant. He scowled slightly under his hood. He sensed that his apprentice was not yet as fully committed to the dark side as he should be. Well, destroying the Jedi here should certainly tie Anakin closer to his Sith identity—Darth Vader. Now it was time to deal with the rest of the Jedi. The frown vanished, replaced by a smile of anticipation. Reaching out, he keyed a frequency into his hologram projector, and waited. A small hologram of the first of the clone commanders sprang up before him. “Yes, my lord?” “The time has come,” Darth Sidious said, savoring the words. After a thousand years, the time for revenge has come at last. “Execute Order Sixty-six.” “I understand, my lord,” the clone commander replied, and the image winked out. Darth Sidious keyed in the next frequency, and another, identical hologram appeared. Again and again, he repeated the same words to clone commander after clone commander, on world after world. With every message, his faint smile grew. The clone troops followed orders. That was, supposedly, why each battalion was led by a Jedi. What the Jedi had forgotten was that the clones served the Republic, not the Jedi Temple…and he, Darth Sidious, was the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. The clones would follow the Chancellor’s orders unquestioningly. Even if they were ordered to kill their Jedi leaders. Order Sixty-six commanded the clones to do just that. Still smiling, Darth Sidious leaned back, picturing the scenes all over the galaxy. Jedi on jungle planets, crystal worlds, water worlds, in the heat of battle and safe in their command centers, all dying at the hands of their own clone troops. He could sense it happening, though not in detail—but he could feel the dark side growing stronger with every Jedi death. His only regret was that he couldn’t be there in person to watch each one of them die.

   One could argue that the following quote from Pablo Hidalgo in Insider 83, published on August 8th 2005, was the real beginning: > Order 66 is not some pre-programmed genetic trigger. It's not some Manchurian Candidate brainwash button. It's rather just one of a catalog of orders that clone commanders and their soldiers are trained since birth to follow without question. It identifies their generals, the Jedi Knights, as traitors to the ideal to be dealt with accordingly.

   But I, personally, associate this much more with Karen Traviss, as further detailed in her Republic Commando books, including True Colors: > Order 4: In the event of the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) being incapacitated, overall CAR command shall fall to the vice chair of the Senate until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified as outlined in Section 6 (iv). Order 5: In the event of the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) being declared unfit to issue orders, as defined in Section 6 (ii), the chief of the defense staff shall assume GAR command and form a strategic cell of senior officers (see page 1173, para 4) until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified. -From Contingency Orders for the Grand Army of the Republic: Order Initiation, Orders 1 Through 150, GAR document CO(CL) 56-95

   > Order 65: In the event of either (i) a majority in the Senate declaring the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) to be unfit to issue orders, or (ii) the Security Council declaring him to be unfit to issue orders, and an authenticated order being received by the GAR, commanders shall be authorized to detain the Supreme Commander, with lethal force if necessary, and command of the GAR shall fall to the acting Chancellor until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified as outlined in Section 6 (iv). Order 66: In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after receiving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established. -From Contingency Orders for the Grand Army of the Republic: Order Initiation, Orders 1 Through 150, GAR document CO(CL) 56-95

   In this interpretation, clones know about Order 66 as one of 150 Contingency Orders designed for different emergency situations. This one does have the inherent benefit of giving the Order leeway as merely a defensive measure alongside Order 65, hiding it in plain sight. An interesting result is that some troopers believe the Order to have either been sent as a mistake or a Separatist trap, and refuse to act on it, such as Ion Team in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Some ARCs and RCs refused the Order out of personal principles due to their increased independence.

3. Mind control. The inhibitor chips from TCW. Now obviously these contradict what Hidalgo said earlier on, but they make sense with TCW's individualization of clones. Of course, this brings the issue that nobody ever detected these microchips even during head scans, nor did they ever trigger in a way similar to how Tup had one misfire despite the large scale of the war. These can also be removed, and clones with enough willpower can temporarily overpower them.

So anyway, which one would be the most realistically successful at achieving Sidious' goals long-term? Apologies if the post was a bit too long.

Yes, following up on my A-Wing post with a related topic based on various comments I received. Anywho, the TIE Fighter for the longest time has been an absolute joke as it is an easily destructible starfighter known for being mocked by anyone fighting against them, to the point Kyle Katarn calls TIE pilots suicidal. But have they been mistreated by lore?

Of course, we know for a fact that I'm ANH they are most certainly competent. We only see a single squadron of circa ~12 TIEs be launched by Vader as Tarkin refuses to deploy any defensive measures, viewing the Rebel attack as a pitiful desperate attempt. These fighters successfully take down a large chunk of the 30 Rebel fighters deployed, leaving only around 2-5 fighters alive depending on your source. Some TIEs die as well, of course. But one could argue that these are Vader's elite pilots and normal pilots would be far more incompetent.

Thematically speaking, people tie the TIE Fighter's disposability to an Imperial doctrine of troopers not mattering. At the same time, pilots take time and money to train, and certainly giving supposedly elite troops like Vader's (presumably clone-based) forces these weak fighters with no shielding or life support or anything of the sort would be wasting good troopers. Regardless of how big the Empire is, training takes time and investment. Similarly, I've heard that the Empire were "equipping themselves for a war closer to the Clone Wars", but even then would TIEs fare any better than V-Wings, Torrents, Headhunters and ARCs at defeating the Separatist forces? Particularly considering how there isn't much evidence of alt fighters like the Starting being used en masse like the ARC was (although this may be a case of media just not focusing on it)

Finally, overall, how badly have games like D6 treated the TIE Fighter and degraded the threat it poses? Do you believe they worsened them, merely kept them similar to how they were or improved their lore? I'd like some opinions on the topic. Thank you.

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan explicitly says that a ship as small as a TIE Fighter is incapable of operating in deep space, which most likely refers to having a hyperdrive at all. This is followed up in the Prequels with the Delta-7 and Eta-2 lacking hyperdrives and instead using hyperdrive rings. How come the A-Wing, only slightly longer than the Eta (at 6.9m) and shorter than the Delta (although admittedly bulkier, but not enough to seemingly fit one) has not just a working hyperdrive but a class 1 one while also having advanced sensor capabilities and considerable weaponry? Would George Lucas have given it a hyperdrive ring had he come up with the idea before RotJ?