u/Quirky_Atmosphere_49

Disclaimer: I am a GM2 Peak Peni and this may be incorrect but feel free to comment. I am writing down these notes for the sake of discussion.

We've all seen it before. Someone runs attack Peni on one team and it's a tossup whether she runs the lobby or is completely useless. Attack Peni is extremely situational and it's taken me any hours to wrap my head around the macro situations at play.

Here are some scenarios that I came up with that can affect how I play attack Peni, or whether I play attack Peni at all:

1. Your team is running a brawl/dive comp against a poke comp. In this situation, the enemy team will get pushed back in an attempt to kite your frontline. If that's the case back to front attack Peni works wonderfully here. You can web off key choke points behind the enemy and they will walk into it like clockwork.

2. Your team is running poke against a brawl/dive comp. This is the inverse situation where your team gets forced back, so the space in the enemy backline that you mine off is essentially useless. In that case, switch to the reverse and play the nest in your backline to let the divers eat the mines.

3. Your team is running poke vs poke. This is one of the most suboptimal situations. You can't really run dive Peni here because Peni is hard as a solo diver, you can melt in seconds. Your team will inevitably get pushed back because Peni sucks as a frontline tank. Flank Peni is ineffective because the enemy has much more space to ignore you (this is assuming the enemy team is competent and the mk doesn't chase you alone into the nest for example)

I'm sure, though it's suboptimal, there are ways to get to make it work. You can play a hybrid frontline/flank playstyle where you take an off angle and harass positions the dps want to stand in. Or, you can time your dive/flank exactly when the enemy is making a play. This is much less consistent though.

4. Your other tank isn't doing well. This is Attack Peni's biggest crutch I feel. Plenty of tanks don't know how to play with their Peni and will overextend far away from your nest, mistime their push with your flank, expect a second shield tank but then die because Peni isn't a shield tank. In a perfect world, both teams skill level can be equal so we can predict plays perfectly, but if you notice your other tank is always dying in seconds, then it may be time to swap off or adjust your playstyle.

I wrote these notes to get clearer on how to duel enemy characters. This is especially useful for playing flank Peni because often a flank dps will break off from the team to try to contest you.

These notes were assuming the following conditions:

1. This is a straight 1v1. So this is assuming no help from either team, not any wider macro game considerations like time limits etc.

2. Neither party is willing to back down, so there are no stalemates here. Each party wants the space so they are going to fight to the death.

3. This is not assuming that Peni takes this fight in a perfect nest spot. As such, in this scenario, Peni would not have placed down her nest yet and is in a random location when the fight starts. Of course, she can retreat to a good nest spot if she needs to, but by then the fight would already have started, so she doesn't have the drone damage buildup just yet. This condition is to account for real life games where often Flank Peni takes fights in the middle of nowhere.

These notes I wrote may not be the most correct. Disclaimer: I am a GM2 Peak Peni and I don't play dps that often. So if there is anything wrong with my guide, please point it out. I posted this guide to also source opinions from the community.

Let me know what you think:

Here's the guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o1zMcrBodfT6yjp5\_yOsP3Y3dTGJ6s10ZfibmBOimAQ/edit?usp=drivesdk

As we all know, support ults are the most impactful in the game. And Invis has one of the hardest ults to get right. If she places it wrongly, or if she gets burst down while in the ult, it's useless. It's different from CnD or Luna because they can still get value from suboptimal ults. For Invis if she fks up, the whole teamfight is lost.

I'm not exaggerating when I say in the last few games I played, I'm the sole reason my team lost. Sure, maybe the dps screws up and gets picked, the tank overextends and dies, but a good support ult can erase all of these mistakes. I can play a perfect neutral but once I screw up the ult, it's all on me.

Just wanted to get that off my chest, as it's only now that I realise the sheer responsibility and power all Sue mains have with that ult. It's a stressful cross to bear.

There seems to be a soft stigma against white foxes in the game, where people often tell you to get off Fox at any one point. Sometimes politely, sometimes rudely, sometimes with a reason and sometimes without. I'm writing this in the cases where there is a reason, and it might happen more often than you think. In a game where support is the most influential role, if you mess up as Wf, the entire team will feel it much harder.

Here are the most common mistakes I see foxes do:

1. Dying first. I cannot understate how important supports are. If a support is the first to die, the whole teamfight is pretty much over. And Wf players like to die the most. This is because the nature of her kit requires her to be closer to the action, but that doesn't mean she throws away all her fundamentals, like positioning, cover, sticking behind the tanks, like all other supports.

Particularly damning is when some foxes like to use Awakening aggressively, charge in first and then die. It's possible to use Awakening aggressively but its a niche use case and requires some finesse to pull off. Another wasted skill usage is teleporting right in front of the tank and dying instantly. Don't forget these two skills are also your only survival skills and have long cooldowns, so if you waste it, even if you get out alive somehow, that's more than ten seconds where you have no more escape buttons.

White Fox is a more aggressive support, but she is still a support. The base fundamentals a support should have should still stay intact.

2. Not understanding team comps and the macro game. Wf is more situational than most, and her playstyle has to be adapted to suit not only your team comps, but the enemy team comps as well.

First off, counters. Wf is countered hard by poke and if you think you can play like you normally do slashing away in front of a firing squad, you're providing no value to your team. You have to adapt. Use cover more, be ready to burn your dash to get out of range, and don't teleport in main even if your tank is dying. Bait out ults so they don't melt yours. The point is, you have to be adjusting your playstyle appropriately to the counters. And if you can't do it, you have to swap to another more reliable support.

Secondly, team comp. White fox is considered an off healer, and she does not throw up the same numbers as Invis or Cloak. So if your only other support is a dp, for example, and your team is running shield tanks against a sustained damaged comp, then you're cooked. In this case, there's not much you can control apart from maybe asking your team to play safer or swap. And you have to swap if nothing else is happening. Wf does not fit in all team comps, unlike other supports.

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Now I made this post because I recently experienced a white fox in ranked which did these two mistakes exactly. First, she ran Fox against a poke versus poke comp, and punisher pretty much wrecked her ult every time while the enemy Invis and Luna had ults for days. Second, she kept trying to brawl at the frontline with her awakening right in front of punisher and Strange so she kept dying first. And this was a champion white fox. Don't contribute to the stereotype, kumihos. If winning is the objective, I hope you don't make these mistakes.

Disclaimer: I'm a GM Peni. Trying to jot down some notes as flank Attack Peni all by her lonesome is extremely scary and requires some strategy. Particularly, it's rather important to know which enemy characters you're up against.

Flank Peni's gameplay loop is pretty standard. First, set up your nest in an area you can control. Then engage the enemy team either through passive mine throwing or active diving. Then retreat back to your nest if things get too hot. These notes assume that you have a good nest spot and cover which is reasonably hard for the enemy to take your space. But there are some characters which can still even destroy that, especially if you're alone.

Danger Level: Low 🟢

Everyone else - Basically anyone who doesn't have the tools to threaten your nest. Im including poke characters in here because while they are annoying and they can melt you fast - they can't stop you from playing on your nest as long as you limit test. I'm also including shield tanks in here because although they technically can negate your nest damage, they belong on the frontline and if they're trying to contest you, their fight is often already lost.

Danger Level: Medium 🟡 - The Duelists

These characters will actively try to contest your nest. They have either great mobility to get in or get out, or damage negating abilities. You should be able to win a 1v1, but in flank situations sometimes it isn't a fair fight, and these characters take up a lot of your resources and attention. Exercise caution.

Magik

Iron Fist

Venom

Captain America

Angela

Deadpool

Thing

Hulk

Danger Level: High 🟥 - The cc merchants

Cc I think is a death sentence to Peni. She relies so much on her mobility but the moment that's gone, she melts like a candle. These characters must be accounted for when engaging and their cooldowns be tracked.This doesn't just include stuns but also displacement abilities as well - getting pulled out of your nest isn't fun.

Less dangerous cc:

Luna

Mantis

Scarlet Witch

White Fox

Emma (dangerous but hard to proc)

Thor

More dangerous cc:

Spiderman

Squirrel Girl

Bucky

Invisible Woman

Danger Level: Extreme 💀 - The assassins

The characters that can not only contest you on your nest, but will be able to win singlehandedly everytime, rendering your flank useless. So far there's only one character in this category I have found

Star Lord

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And that's the list. Feel free to tell me what you think. Thanks!

I'd always thought Peni was a decent counter to dive tanks. Until I started matching with Venom - especially the good ones which get their dive timing right and don't get focused. The guy's health pool is big enough that he ignores my nest and just breaks it. He's easy to web, but his health pool is so big he doesn't care. He serves his exact purpose - a distraction which wastes too much of my time while the frontline collapses onto me.

How do you deal with a Venom diving at your supports? Does the nest help? Does webbing help? Do I just need to ignore him?

I don't know if it's just a skill issue, but even if I'm looking out for it, when Spiderman ults he's always moves in this zigzag pattern thats completely random and I always miss my web. Do any of you have trouble stopping Spiderman ults?

Strange always flies through the air at mach 10 and I can never web him before he gets off his ult, even if I'm purposely watching out for it. Is it a skill issue? Any tips on consistently webbing a flying strange?

The counter to poke is dive, right? So I run Venom whenever the other team is running too much poke for my team to handle. But punisher is the only poke character that shuts me down. His shotgun singlehandedly stops me and forces me to retreat from the dive super early, rendering my dive useless. Alone, he can be handled but as long as he is pocketed by at least one support, he gets insane value from the anti dive.

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How do you guys handle Punisher as a Venom?

I always encounter iron fist one on one, usually on the flank both on attack and defense situations. Word on the internet is that Peni should stomp him in Duels, but maybe it's a skill diff on my side, I always have trouble facing him

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-His skill is % dmg so he can melt me quickly

-He's highly mobile so I can't run from him

-His mobility also allows him to bypass my traps

-He uses his block ability to completely ignore my nest

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Any times for this matchup? Is it just a skill diff?

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*Our teams getting wrecked*

Me: We gotta get a dps to focus the enemy Dino

Teammate: Bro Dino's not the problem

Me: oh, then what's the problem?

Teammate: Open your eyes bro

Me: What? I'm asking because I don't know

Teammate: *Complete silence*

Later I watch the reply and find out the black cat was wracking havoc in the backline. I wasn't able to grasp that since I was playing Emma in the front. Maybe I should have saw the killfeed and figured it out, I don't know. But regardless it's still frustrating when a teammate refuses to communicate with me on what's happening. Like, are you afraid I'll start blaming you? I seriously don't understand teammates sometimes.

After the second checkpoint, the museum map opens up into a wide open space and I consistently have a worse time playing Peni either on attack or defence when the game reaches that point. I almost always swap off then, but maybe it's a skill issue. What are your thoughts on that portion of the map as Peni

I haven't seen any Peni at all, whether it be content creators of actual people in my games play flank Peni on this map, so sourcing opinions from the pros here. Thanks!

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As the title says. Peni does have some niche uses on defense, and plays well as an AntiDive. But on attack, what does she do that is better than any other tank?

Obviously she's not a good frontline tank like Strange or Mag

For brawling Rogue and Thor are better

For flanking and being annoying on the back Cap and Venom are much more consistent and harder to ignore

The only use case I can see for Peni playing on attack is for AntiDive, but that's much less effective on attack I find.

Give me a reason to continue playing Peni on comp! I love her but doesn't seem like I get much value on her compared to the rest...

Hi all I'm new to Vanguard and something I'd always wondered:

As a tank, what is the correct play if the enemy Strange ults the backline? Do I instantly fall back to brawl with the enemy Strange? Or do I remain where I am at the frontline to stop the enemy team from following up?

My thought is that if Strange ulted, hes going to pull off his lethal combo before I can kill him anyway so might as well put my efforts into holding back the frontline. Am I right in just ignoring him?

Thanks for all the feedback this far, it's interesting to see where people play.

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