u/Undead-Chipmunk

I'm over it. Beyond over it. I've had my moment and I think I've completely cracked at this point. I'm a very, lets say "Socratic" person in that I'm willing to entertain things for a long time, which has taken me to many strange places and given me many different experiences. But, unfortunately, if you're not geared up in propaganda, that mindset will get you lost in people's bullshit if not applied appropriately. I've decided, likewise, that I've had enough.

It's such a clusterfuck. Conservatives call everything demonic while simultaneously being this unholy writhing Cthulu alliance of people. Lets start with the Russian Orthodox Church, which is led by billionaire Patriach Kiril of Moscow, who blessed the butchery of Ukrainian Orthodox children.

These people then find political alliance with trad Catholics who are borderline in schism with the Pope, despite their "tradness" implying a strong adherence to rules, such as papal infallibility. "We want papal infallibility, so as long as the pope is owning woke people and affirming our creepy blood-soaked mysticism that is indistinguishable from new age channeling and occultism." Padre Pio (who screamed at people and gave them intense, harsh penances) and Mother Teresa could apparently bilocate. You know who else could supposedly do this? Aleister Crowley. All three of these individuals make me uneasy.

I'm also tired of the "moderate" pretenders too, like Jordan Peterson. Jonathan Pageau falls into this category as well, especially, pretending to be moderate, while simultaneously posting a video about Jesus not being "all kind and nice" and equating that to rejecting immigrants... shortly after Alex Pretti got shot.

I'm tired of this space. Tired. Tired of the superstition, the worship of magic and fantasy over the love of one's fellow. I'm tired of the fear mongering, the same old stuff that so consistently and utterly amounts to "every accusation is a confession," like "there's this shadowy global elite controlling everything." Yeah, like Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Vladimir Putin, Patriarch Kiril - funding people like Jay Dyer. Who is working on AI and mass surveillance? Who is funding massive amounts of propaganda? Who is claiming the rise of the antichrist while inverting Christ's message of Love?

I find interesting that a lot of Christianity treats suffering as God's will, like there is this divine justice to someone suffering. Catholicism is a particularly strong example of this.

But when I suffer, I don't wish for others to suffer. To wish for some special reward, especially at the expense of others, for suffering is an innately materialistic, egoistic desire. That is especially considering the reward of eternity as freely given to all.

This exchange-based system is so common in Christianity. The UB has the more natural Christian understanding of suffering as a consequence of sin, without the contradictory notion that suffering needs to be justified transactionally, with some special reward for suffering more.

No, Jesus gave himself freely to death, truly freely. Not out of expectation for reward, but out of a pure outpouring of love.

Now, this doesn't mean that when people suffer, we don't wish to offset their suffering out of love, and distribute the burden of suffering. Nor is it that we would not ourselves wish to be the recipient of such love when we suffer. But I would point out: this is not transactional.

I suspect many of you have had significant spiritual experiences with respect to Orthodoxy, and I just wanted to share my story to build on a perspective that can begin to integrate the reality of spirituality while also not affirming the exclusivity of Orthodox Christianity. Also, I figure a lot of you also like people like David Bentley Hart, who similarly laments the Orthobro movement.

I am asking because I was on a path to Orthodoxy, converted to Catholicism because my wife suddenly had a great desire to do so (and I wanted her to stay on a spiritual path, so I ended up joining with her), and strangely, had a spiritual experience with my Catholic confirmation rite that basically was "the living spirit inside both churches is the same." The instant I was confirmed, it was like my mind was suddenly in a different state, expanding across time. This progressed into seeing that same living spirit go back into Judaism. The image of this is like something deep and hidden within, continuing like a river.

I also had a profound set of experiences and a significant personal transformation that basically showed me that the spiritual reality is far, far bigger and deeper than the institutional church.

I can't even really begin to describe how intense all of this is and was. In me now exists a deeper spiritual hunger to be connected to God. I felt as though my mind was stretching out across time. It was like being high while being perfectly sober and lucid. I still have an imprint of it, and it's like my mind is more philosophically and spiritually clear than it was before. But, it also came with some terror, like seeing how horrific reality would be if it was just this infernalist idea of God that condemns people to Hell for eternity. Basically, I had a spiritual experience that mirrored my spiritual experience coming out of nihilism, where I understood that I had to make a choice of genuine faith, recognizing that nihilism fundamentally doesn't work. And, now, I can see that this infernalist vision of God doesn't work from firsthand experience; it's just nihilism with a magical symbolic veneer.

I had an experience of this sort of Old Testament version of God, but ironically, it kind of burnt out my enjoyment of the sort of classical things of the church, like the icononography, music, incense, etc. Instead, now, I feel a deeper love for all beings in reality, even the "evil" ones. I want all the prodigal sons to come home more than I care about whatever temporal things I might suffer, even though I do also care greatly that I don't suffer! Hah.

While in OCIA, I prayed to Alexis Toth, and a week later, by complete coincidence, I met a parishioner from the church in my city that he was a pastor at. I got his number, but somehow I don't have it on my phone, which was also weird, like "yep, this is real, but you're not coming in here yet, but you're invited." I have yet to visit this church because I'm very busy, but I know I very much want to.

I feel a deep connection to Maximus the Confessor - and mind you, he was degloved and had his tongue cut out by the institution of the church. So, if you feel wronged by the institution of the church, you have something in common with one of the greatest of saints and theologians. Maximus the Confessor was also a universalist.

I feel that something rather significant is happening spiritually in the world, like the time we are in now reflects the time of Jesus when He was bestowed on the planet. The church inherited the spiritual heritage of Israel, and that includes its baggage.

The church, like Israel, is scattered into tribes, and has fallen into all sorts of idolatry and corruption. People think that the Pharisees were like these especially corrupt men. No. They were typical religious authorities. They were also the kind of people to blame everything that disagrees with their worldview as demonic, which is ACTUALLY the context when Jesus said that those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will never know forgiveness.

Jesus cast out a demon, and the Pharisees accused Him of using the power of the devil to cast out the demon. Gee.... doesn't that sound familiar. And doesn't that sound like what the real meaning is "if you think that God reaching out is just demons, how will He ever reach you?"

What's funny is I actually now am starting to warm up to the idea that the Orthobro movement is actually demonic. Something Orthodox people talk about a lot is how you get attacked after confirmation or face demonic resistance joining. Well, Orthobros seem to be waltzing right in in droves, so what does that tell you? Don't take this too seriously, I just think it's an irony that I don't know the true reality of or answer to.

Heh. I almost feel like starting an "Apokatastasis Orthodox Protestant Reformation" with a lot of you haha. Like, think about it... the early church had this profound plurality of ideas, and then there were all these councils and ossification, and now the theology that comes is like a shadow of what the early church fathers did, which, in my view, is some of the most immensely predictive philosophy ever performed. I.e. Gregory of Nyssa being the first to oppose slavery, and anticipating that the physical world works in this "matter has physical laws moving from chaos to order," like, shit, if we all just built our theology on Gregory of Nyssa, there would never, ever have been a conflict between religion and science. Instead, we got people burnt at the stake for their now confirmed scientific views by the same institution that maimed St. Maximus the Confessor.

Seeing ROC blessing the war in Ukraine is just horrific as well. I had a little vision/flash in consciousness of the Orthodox children butchered by Putin as having little halos, and I broke down and cried, especially being a father myself.

IDK, I feel like I'm experiencing some new perspective arising like it's being shown to me spiritually, and I'd love to hear if anyone here is going through something similar, where it's like "yeah, this institution is obviously suuuuper messed up, but also still with spiritual fruit that is part of a larger, deeper spiritual reality."

I wanted to become Orthodox because I'm a massive fan of St. Gregory of Nyssa, and I have to look very hard to find things I disagree with him on. I find him to be one of the most philosophically and theologically profound writers of all time. St. Maximus the Confessor is also a favorite of mine because he became a saint after being brutally tortured by his own church, by a consensus of people within the church. To me, that is like this glaring sign that the institution itself over-asserts itself, while there is simultaneously a great spiritual power within it.

His view that all will eventually be reconciled in Christ and God while being sainted, a very serious and spiritually aware person is of great interest to me.

I really do believe that Christ was not mincing His words when He said the Greatest Commandments. You love your neighbor as yourself, and you love God with all your heart. You also love your enemy.

When I take that seriously, the thought of losing a single soul to eternal suffering becomes unbearable, even the worst of sinners. I literally cannot bear it.

I feel that the traditional churches - both Catholic and Orthodox - tend to be theologically too assured of eternal damnation, while being skeptical of universal reconciliation - even if through painful purification. I think what drives this is pessimism and security seeking. You don't want to give people dangerous advice.

Likewise, I cannot say that universalism is indeed the case, but I do feel that skepticism of eternal damnation is warranted. What is helping the poor and sick compared to eternal damnation? If someone's poverty and sickness makes them more likely to be saved from eternal damnation, would helping them not be increasing their chances of experiencing extreme suffering in the next life? What if the poor person grows selfish and worldly after being assisted?

I feel such a draw to Orthodoxy, but it's been tempered by the amount of pessimism I've encountered about the possibility that all may be reconciled to God in time. One thing I can consider is that some beings might actively choose against God literally forever. But the idea that one would be inescapably locked in a state of endless torment? I cannot bear it.

If I find myself saved, and people are suffering in Hell, all I can imagine doing is praying for them and subjecting myself to as much as I can bear to get as many souls out of that state as possible. I couldn't imagine being concerned with anything else if I was in Paradise.

IDK. Help me here. This is me wrestling.