u/captaindestucto

This'll draw some hate, but say in some extremely unlikely hypothetical, a conventionally attractive 25-30 yo woman wanted to date me - 47M virgin - and no-one had a problem with the age gap. I could hang around with her friends and have some of the social experiences I missed out on at that age, and there would still be time for a family.

That seems to be the dream of a lot of middle-aged divorced men around my age trying to relive their 'glory days', so it should appeal 10 times more to a virgin man who never dated, right?

I've actually had some interest from women both my age and a bit younger over the last few years, but I couldn't force myself to do anything serious about it. On some level I realized I would be experiencing something important twenty years too late. I felt nothing, no motivation, no anticipation, not even fear of rejection. More or less indifference.

I'll never be in the right part of life for this. The weight of those unlived years is always there. I may not have anything like the experiences of people my age, but I'm not the same person either, physically, emotionally, compared to my younger self.

This was a problem ten years ago when I started a kind of self-improvement journey (gym, travel, tentative career advancement, forcing myself out to socialize). I suspected then it was already too late, but I need to say I at least tried.

When a lonely unlived life is a fact, not some future worse case scenario, we should probably give up and find something else to focus on.

There's nothing wrong with dating and finding new love late in life; there is however something deeply weird about a first relationship at this point. We aren't late bloomers at this stage. A flower doesn't wait until mid-winter to bloom, and it doesn't really matter what we might get away with either. Even the fantasy feels empty now.

An example is the advice given to older inexperienced men.  Not advocating for big age gaps involving very young parties here, however there’s an obvious contradiction when women invoke differences in maturity and life experience with older male age gaps – ignoring men’s psychological development being 7-11 years behind women - while demanding a man with zero relationship history only date within a tight range around of his age (literally no more than 5 years younger even in the older age groups).

Maybe this breaks sub rules, but I’m a 47-year-old virgin who missed out entirely because of screwing up my young adult life   - socially awkward neckbeard gamer while at university, totally my own fault, not blaming anyone else or “society” for this -   then having to support a terminally ill parent while working a dead-end office job until my mid-30s. The closest I’ve had to a relationship was two dates with a divorcee 5 years ago.  I’ve been told I was being creepy and predatory for admitting I’d rather date a less experienced younger fully grown 30+ adult. This is not even acting on it – merely stating a preference/delusion. The worst I should be accused of is being superficial. No, I needed to get comfortable with women who had teenaged kids and had been in and out of relationships for 25+ years. The fact such women could easily manipulate a man with less romantic experience than an average teenager, not to mention the motives of women who have a fetish for this, was a non-issue. In fact it was my problem I needed to “seek therapy” for.

Then there’s differences in financial situation, status, and agency around that. Women are still encouraged to seek out high status partners, since this satisfies an innate preference, plus the possibility of piggybacking career advancement or access to half his assets. This was basically gold standard advice on the FDS sub.  The financial, educational and probably IQ disparity with a man earning two….three... four times as much never really comes up in discussion.

 … Then there’s the more extreme example of the BDSM community, where women actively seek out sexualized power dynamics with the man usually dominant. They can ‘let go’ and engage in ‘consensual non-consent’ or whatever the euphemism is.  People can call that whatever they want, but anyone looking at this objectively would realize that while it's technically consensual, it's a cosplay of sexual violence. But again, since this is something that women of all backgrounds seek out, and it doesn't represent any kind of negative in the dating market, there's only qualified reservations and "guidelines" from liberal feminists. (I've only read deeper criticism from dyed in the wool rad fems and even then it's far from universal.)

Not a question, but a warning.

47M. Never dated. Missed out on every young adult formative experience. Basically I became a neckbeard gamer as a young adult to cope with adolescent bullying, then had a terminally ill parent to care for until my mid 30s while working an office job around people twice my age.

I finally started on a kind of self-improvement journey in my late 30s (gym, career progression, first overseas trip, forcing myself out to socialize), but I think on some level I knew it was already over and I was only doing this so I could tell myself I tried.

Age really is the problem now. I can't adjust my fantasies and goals to be more age-appropriate.

This'll get hate - but when I think of a girlfriend it's usually still women in their 20s or early 30s. The thought of dating a middle aged divorcee makes me uneasy. It feels like pairing up with an older female authority figure. Even if I find their appearance attractive, their older person manner and all their life experience is very off-putting. I've been to singles events trying to keep an open mind but left more discouraged. And even if I could get past this, I'd still have to deal with the 'serial killer vibes' stigma of having no relationship history at this age - all while operating on a less than average teenage boy level of romantic experience.

It's a similar problem with socializing.

When I attend hobby meetups/events I often end up gravitating towards younger people, then I have to snap out of it and realize most of them wouldn't want a guy my age in their circles before I embarrass myself.

That energy and spontaneity - those kind of friendships - I'll never know what that's like now. Having been on the outer edge of a middle aged social circle, it's clear that people at this age are slowing down and not so keen on new people/experiences. Everything has to be planned weeks or months ahead and fit around older adult responsibility and health issues. A good percentage of men my age have drinking problems and are completely sedentary. Getting them out of their comfort zone was like pulling teeth and at some point it just isn't worth the declined invites and humiliation of one-sided effort.

This leaves a life I can't feel much enthusiasm for, in large part because of a series of stupid choices made at crucial junctures.

I didn't choose the situation with my mother but I did choose to waste that critical 18-24 stage, plus too much time afterward wallowing. It isn't possible to make myself want this life, and in ten years I'll be stewing in the same regrets.

In other words, it's an empty, unlived sort of life, and I've run out of road/time/opportunities.

This probably doesn't belong here but some might benefit from hearing it anyway. There isn't unlimited time. Age is not just a number. Do what you need to now, even if every fiber of your being is telling you to remain comfortably anesthetized behind a screen instead.

47M. Never dated. Missed out on every young adult formative experience. Basically I became a neckbeard gamer as a young adult to cope with adolescent bullying, then had a terminally ill parent to care for until mid 30s while working an office job around people twice my age.

I went on a kind of self-improvement journey starting late 30s (gym, career progression, first overseas trip, forcing myself out to socialize), but I think on some level I knew it was already over and I was just doing this so I could tell myself I tried.

Age is really the problem. I can't adjust my fantasies/desires/goals to be more age-appropriate.

This'll get hate and downvotes - when I think of a girlfriend it's usually a woman in her 20s or early 30s. The thought of dating a middle aged divorcee makes me uneasy. It almost feels like pairing up with an older female authority / parent figure. Even if I find their appearance attractive, their older person manner and all the life experience is very off-putting. I've been to age-appropriate singles events trying to keep an open mind about it but left more discouraged than ever. Don't expect younger women to want anything to do with me but I can't see this 'creepy' preference changing.

So I'm having to reconcile now to the fact that a relationship probably won't happen. Even if I could get past this, I'd still have to deal with the 'serial killer vibes' stigma of having no relationship history at this age - all while operating on a less than average teenage boy level of romantic experience.

It's a similar problem with socializing.

When I attend events I always end up gravitating towards younger people. Then I have to snap out of it and realize most of them wouldn't want a guy my age in their circles before I embarrass myself.

That energy and spontaneity - those kind of friendships - they aren't going to be something I can experience now. People my age are slowing down and sticking to a long-term network of friends; that is if they maintain a circle at all. Everything has to be planned weeks or months ahead, fit around older adult responsibility and, increasingly, health issues. A good percentage of men my age have drinking problems and are completely sedentary. That seems to go for single men more than married, who in theory should have time on their hands. Getting them out of their comfort zone is like extracting teeth and at some point it just isn't worth the declined invites and humiliation of one-sided effort.

This leaves a life I can't feel much enthusiasm for.

Maybe it isn't possible to make myself want this life. Maybe in ten years I'll be stewing in the same regrets, the same fantasy that will be even further from reality.

The fact I might have to spend another 30-40 years like this makes me want to zone out completely. Dull my mind with some numbing antidepressant (which I've so far avoided) or an all-consuming distraction, anything to not have to think about it.

47M. Never dated. Missed out on every young adult formative experiences due in part to terrible choices and maladaptive coping measures as a young man, plus bad luck with family (neckbeard gamer, then a terminally ill parent to care for until mid 30s).

Been through that already here.

I don't know how to adjust my fantasies/desires/goals to be more age-appropriate.

When I attend social events I always end up gravitating towards younger people. People my age seem unrelatable - not that many of them are out in the first place so it often is mainly younger people.

This'll get hate and downvotes - when I think of a girlfriend it's usually a woman in her 20s or early 30s. The thought of dating a middle aged divorcee makes me uneasy. It almost feels like pairing up with an older female authority / parent figure. Even if I find their appearance attractive, their older person manner and all that life experience is very off-putting. I've been to the age-appropriate singles events trying to keep an open mind about it but left more discouraged than ever. Don't expect younger women to want anything to do with me but I can't see this changing.

So I'm having to reconcile now to the fact that a relationship probably won't happen, because even if I could get past this, I'd still have to deal with the 'serial killer vibes' stigma according to perceptions of inexperienced men at this age - that's just the reality of it - while operating on a less than average teenage boy level of romantic experience.

Same thing for socializing. The energy and spontaneity of youth - those kind of friendships - aren't going to be something I can experience now. People my age are slowing down and sticking to a long-term network of friends, that is if they maintain a circle at all. Everything has to be a compromise with older adult responsibility and, increasingly, health issues. A good percentage of men my age have drinking problems and are completely sedentary. That seems to go for single men more than married, who in theory should have time on their hands. Getting them out of their comfort zone is like extracting teeth and at some point it just isn't worth the declined invites and humiliation of one-sided effort.

This leaves a life I can't feel much enthusiasm for.

Maybe it isn't possible to make myself want this life. Maybe in ten years I'll be stewing in the same regrets, the same fantasy that will be even further from reality.

The fact I might have to spend another 30-40 years like this makes me want to zone out completely. Dull my mind with some numbing antidepressant (which I've so far avoided) or an all-consuming distraction, anything to not have to think about it.

So recently the trend is to tell men who find no success with the apps to do this, ignoring the fact that for about 15 years young men have grown up being told the opposite. Situations that used to be normal to find dates in previous generations have been off-limits for a while now. That includes social spaces like bars, clubs, events etc

Advice on how/when to approach from people who don't have to do it is already of dubious value, but most of the women saying this are aware of the atmosphere young men exist in even if they're not actively contributing to it.

And just to be clear with what I mean here, approaching and trying to spark up a conversation with a woman who isn’t interested is a hair’s breadth away from violence according to some of the same people who browbeat young men for not knowing how to.

'Keeping it online’ is just a self-preservation strategy for men who internalized the message.

Picture-in-picture implementation on Chromium browsers is awful. Rounded corners (loses content), ugly title, dimming effect over the entire window, which is distracting when moving the mouse around.

Worse than that, no support for subtitles from youtube videos. Wait, so I have to use some janky extension sending my viewing history to advertisers?

Watching in my 30s as my classmates on social media get married, have kids, get divorced, then remarry, while I stay at the stunted experience level of less than an average 19/20 year old.

Finally 'getting out there' in my mid 30s, only to be insulted to my face at bars or meetups by people more interested in networking and status games than relating genuinely. This includes being called a piece of shit on multiple occasions.

Being invited out out of pity by a workmate for a drink on my fortieth birthday. When his friends turn up -none of whom I know- he loudly proclaims it's my birthday. I can still clearly remember their looks of second-hand embarrassment since it was obvious there was no-one else there for me.

Invited out again to see Joker (..why?) and he makes condescending comments about how much sympathy he has for me because I had to support my mother when I was younger. Because I'm Arthur Fleck, apparently.

Getting an invite from said "friend" again to a holiday spot over New Year's Eve. His friend who picks us up from the ferry terminal shouts "I not driving you everywhere!" to me. I'm perceived as this burden and get death stares from a woman in the group. Then I realize the invite was for half a day and I'm just expected to leave before they all go off to have dinner and celebrate New Year's together.

At 41 I finally work up the courage to ask someone out, but after a few dates she abruptly ends things when I let it slip about never having had a relationship and how I struggled with socializing and making friends at university. Stupid of me. And the look on her face...oof. Her face hit the floor when she heard that.

Being ditched by new male acquaintances when I refuse to dance on a string and do exactly what they want, when they want. Realizing how disposable and low priority I am. Also how people without social circles at this age are often alone for good reason and don't necessarily make decent friends just because they're also struggling.

99% of the time I'm the only person eating out alone at night at a cafe/restaurant - or out anywhere alone for that matter. This is my normal, but clearly it isn't normal. The staff are extra polite because I'm a regular but it's easy to guess what they're thinking.

A couple of instances of getting used as a trauma dumping ground by women online, who make overtures of friendship then treat me like their unpaid therapist. I accept it because I don't want to be rude and being spoken at is better than nothing.

Getting out there 2.0. This time in the form of overseas travel. But now I'm 43, faced with the sight of families everywhere, as well as thousands of young backpackers and young people in their friend groups. I'm having to fight off depression the whole time. People in major cities are mostly cold and unapproachable. I get weird looks as a man on his own. One night, checking into a hostel to save money, I realize I'm the oldest person there and end up immediately checking out and escaping to a budget hotel out of shame.

During all this, I'm clean, in shape, well dressed, and at least employed if somewhat of an underachiever. Far from the worst. But it doesn't matter. I'm a loser to anyone who cares to look close enough and there's no hiding it now.

These aren't the awkward growing pain humiliations of a late adolescent, they're the experiences of a fully grown adult decades behind his peers, with no-one to vouch for him and no cards left to play.

So I tried....for a while.... and now I just want to give up. I'm done.

Male attractiveness isn't particularly complicated if you understand the importance of standard archetypal masculinity.

This is after all how abusers find partners: overconfident, overbearing behaviour, sometimes combined with superficial charisma, passes as masculine for women who are susceptible to that.

This is how conventionally unattractive men can still find partners. They compensate hard with assertiveness and charisma (the second still arguably a masculine trait).

Even deadbeats with nothing else going for them will be found attractive by a percentage of women if they have enough confidence.

The worst thing for a man looks wise isn't a bad facial structure or poor grooming - it's being (unusually) physically small. And likewise the worst thing personality wise isn't selfishness, arrogance - arrogant, selfish men get in relationships all the time - it's shyness, introversion, awkwardness.

Shy men do not even register as men in the majority of women's eyes.

Women no longer have to depend on men economically, that aspect of society has changed, but their basic preferences and the way men interact and relate to one another, particularly in their teens and early 20s, hasn't. Male socializing is still hierarchical and every hierarchy requires people towards the bottom.

I'd argue that the majority of men who struggle with dating these days are the victims of other boys/men. Of bullying and social isolation in adolescence when their personalities were still forming. They always existed of course. It's just that now they aren't being settled for any more.

That's not to say every man who was seriously bullied ends up a perma-single virgin, that it's impossible to overcome or that there's no responsibility to try, but it seems to be a common theme among those who have NEVER once been able to form an intimate bond with a woman.

I went through that, and I talk to other men like this on various subreddits and forums. Some of them are in their 40s/50s or even older, The one thing that ties them together, the one close-to universal isn't misogyny, red pill extremism, porn addiction, or lack of 'the basics' (hygiene, job, basic life skills) - it's the ongoing and relentless humiliation endured in their teens.

47 yo dateless, socially awkward virgin. Some people here might have read a previous post so I won't go over backstory of how I got here.

My current manager is making it their mission to push me into applying over and over for higher level management type roles within and outside the organization.

On some level I'm flattered at the confidence in me, however, I really wish they would stop.

Nothing holds any meaning for me now, everything feels too late. I'd prefer to be left alone in my own mediocrity to eek out a living with as little stress as possible.

This might just just be laziness speaking, and honestly I'm okay with admitting it. Most people require external incentives to progress in career and I have none. It's not like we're curing diseases here either.

I don't want meetings with other managers, toxic office politics, higher demands than I currently deal with, longer hours, more stress. All I'd really be 'earning' at this stage is an empty older man's life, just with less spare time and more money. Yes the money's a lot better, but what would I use it for. I'm not earning the respect/approval of a partner. Getting too old to be a father and therefore the prospect of supporting kids isn't there. It could pay for travel, but I wouldn't be seeing the world as a young person in the right part of life, just an older guy filling up time, and I don't plan to live much into old age either so saving for retirement seems absurd.

It feels like such opportunities are wasted on someone like me, but I'm also worried about the consequences of being seen as having no ambition, the implications for long-term job security.

The last two applications I purposely messed up just so I didn't have to mess it up at the interview stage.

Has anyone else intentionally self-sabotaged for similar reasons? (Can't imagine there's many here.)