u/samthehumanoid

Hi, consciousness is overstated by humans, it is a tool we use, and cannot be the seat of free will, I want to convince you your true nature as an intelligent human exists outside of consciousness

Consciousness is itself unintelligent and passive in nature, like a rock 🪨 consciousness has been over complicated because it has mysterious origins, but its function is clear, it is just a mirror, it is not in itself intelligence

Conscious experience is 2d, and we infer a 3d world from that 2d or flat image, similarly conscious thought is only a 2d slice of a 3d mind - you can’t really see the internal state of the mind, only the thoughts it pushes to conscious experience

Already someone will argue so I want to detail what I mean by consciousness being 2d

While conscious experience feels incredibly deep, all conscious experience is “flat” or 2 dimensional, you may look out at the world and see 3d space, but the raw data is a 2 dimensional image, you infer 3d space by the differences in light, texture, cross referencing each eye etc.

The same way you infer 3d space in a video game! the image on the screen is undeniably flat, but the engine generating that flat image is 3d, and the mind interpreting it is 3d, so it works :) 3d info was translated through a lesser dimension!

When you hear a car drive away into the distance, this isn’t actual 3d space you are directly hearing, it’s a car noise gradually losing volume and you interpret that as distance

They’re just senses in consciousness, what about thoughts?

Think of the actual mind, it is 3 dimensional, an insanely complex network - for every thought that arises in consciousness fully formed, there must be so much preference weighting, cross referencing, memory recalling etc. happening in the mind - why is it that consciousness only gets fully formed, and sometimes totally spontaneous thoughts

I’d argue that all your stored experiences, memories and preferences is what makes you, you, the life you have lived and the lessons you learn are inseparable, and they are the core that directs your decisions and choices in life - what else can you base them on?

Well that core, your stored experiences, they’re “outside” of consciousness. They’re too vast, too deep to exist in the plane of experience/consciousness as we know it. but I think we’d agree thats the real human, the mind behind it all. You aren’t who you are just because of your ability to perceive, but the way you interact with the world

Why, if the real you exists outside of consciousness, does the mind chatter to itself as if it is inside consciousness? Why does conscious thought keep up the narrative?

I think this is a clear objection to what I’m saying so I’ll talk about it

Basically we naturally attach our agency to consciousness itself, and it’s a trap we can’t really avoid.

Time to use our imagination

This story has a simple setting, there is a creature that exists in a void, it has no reference, no way to know itself - the creature just exists in the dark, and it is called the subconscious mind

One day, the creature finds a flat, reflective surface - a mirror. The mirror is totally lifeless, but its surface reflects the world

The creature naturally uses this mirror as a way to become self aware and know itself

The trap is, it sees the flat reflection itself, a 2d projection, and believes it is the reflection itself. Remember, it has never seen itself directly, it wouldn’t notice that the reflection lacked its actual depth

The reflection appears to be dynamic because it’s reflecting something dynamic (the creature in the dark), not only that, but the creature cannot see its actual self, in the dark, the prior cause!!! - the creature sees a reflection which appears dynamic, with no prior cause (it cannot see itself)

It is forced to accept this reflection as “the creature itself” with no prior cause, and no knowledge of its true self, the reflection appears as the only independent, dynamic and intelligent creature. The actual creature, in the void, is now an unknowing servant of this fake creature, which is just a projection of the actual creature.

The creature traps itself with the mirror

This is like a puppeteer who cannot see himself or the strings, he can only see the puppet, after a while he forgets his true nature because he exists in the dark, he identifies with the only way he has of knowing himself, the puppet

Once a human mind has identified with this reflection (the conscious self) and forgotten they are truly the mind “in the dark” simply using the reflection, this is when ideas like free will seem apparent and intuitive

Because by believing he is the reflection itself, not a mind controlling the reflection, he becomes totally blind to the idea of prior causes outside of consciousness, ideas and choices feel as if they have formed inside consciousness itself. Consciousness feels like the source of intelligence.

Importantly, he doesn’t see a lack of prior causes and question it - thoughts don’t need prior causes as far as he is concerned, because he believes there is intelligence within consciousness that could form them

Now the fake intelligence is served by the real, it uses it to feed the narrative in consciousness, reinforcing it

Free will is just one of those stories, the narrative of the conscious mind takes credit for everything, so the intelligence that is feeding it never has a reason to question their source.

The idea of consciousness being the source of intelligence is what severs the causal chain in our mind and blinds us to prior cause, it gives us the feeling that decisions are being formed independently within consciousness

Did you know when you hear your internal voice/narrative, this is the exact part of the brain responsible for simply “imagining what something sounds like”, yep, so while the content of a thought is intelligent and dynamic, the actual experience of it in consciousness is just sensory data, the mind projecting a sound

It somebody said something you agreed with - you wouldn’t point to the sound waves themselves and say “that is where the intelligence lies in this statement”

Both the statement and the thought are just projections of intelligence, both arise in consciousness as sensory data, intelligence is then inferred from both

Peak human experience is “effortless action” “flow state” “surrender” losing self awareness, when consciousness allows a flow of information with no labelling, categorisation, value, judgement - actions become OBVIOUS, choices fade and it just feels like each moment very obviously follows the next, there is no worrying, no hesitation and no overreactions

Things feel automatic. The activity itself starts to lead your actions more: The painting paints itself, the song makes you dance, the game plays itself

But we live in a world that emphasises, reinforces and celebrates deliberate, conscious control, we obsess over the irrational idea of free will. I believe these ideas just block a happy flow of information

Tell someone free will isn’t real and they will probably find that idea upsetting. But peak human experience (flow states) show we are not in conscious control the way we believe, and we find that “unconscious action” where each action feels obvious, as total happiness and contentment.

Why is our idea of happiness and freedom (free will), so far from the reality - flow state, effortless action, krishnamurtis “choiceless awareness” etc. ?

I think the modern worlds obsession with free will is by (cruel) design, the more you obsess over judging the information coming into your mind, and the more you obsess over your conscious intent, the further you are from the state everyone you ever meet finds happiness in.

It is better to imagine the universe as a network of information including yourself, flow state isn’t the result of a human trying something, it is when “you” stops obstructing the flow of the whole network

You cannot “try” to enter that flow, because it already exists around you, and attempting to enter it is only going to bring your own personal idea of it to mind - the flow is already there, you can only notice it. The best way to enter would instead be to find ways to “tune in” to the flow of information around them.

For a footballer, that is things like scanning the pitch rapidly, constantly loading information - the more you scan, the more than information guides your decisions - flow. Athletes will ground themselves in the world around them, focusing on things like their breath

Many musicians and mystics call it surrender

Legendary driver Senna on his flow state:

That day I suddenly realised that I was no longer driving conscious. And I was in a different dimension, for me. The circuit for me was a tunnel, which I was just going, going, going. And I realised I was well beyond my conscious understanding…

Creatively, and spiritually, those states of “unconscious action” where we are just a peaceful observer, are the exact same mechanism - when you are in flow drawing or creating music, it is the same as a footballer playing at their peak, both have been swept up in the flow of the activity, not self awareness

When you are meditating or on a walk and feel that blissful state, no thought, it is like the world is just unfolding by itself, and all of it including you is wrapped up in that, every moment necessitates the next

Flow for an athlete or musician is hard, under a very unpredictable and dynamic environment, they have to be in a mental state that radically accepts all of those unpredictable moments. The second you single some part of conscious experience out, label it, judge it, you have put your hand into the flow of information and disrupted the current

You can watch Lionel Messi in slow motion and see this in action - many say this guy is “2 steps ahead” of all the other players, but when you slow it down you see the opposite is true - everyone else is 2 steps ahead, and that’s how he gets them.

Michael Jordan:

Why would I think about missing a shot that I haven’t taken yet?

They are all overreacting, trying to anticipate, trying to predict - all this prediction does is disrupt the flow of what actually is. Messi has this clearest, most accurate map of what is happening on the pitch, because above all else he is most focused on what actually is

While an athlete might feel anticipation is a good way to get ahead, conscious anticipation just harms your flow. The second you are trying to imagine what could happen, you are inviting a clash between imagined and reality - those clashes are what stop flow. Something will happen, and because you had a defined idea of what should have happened, there is a clash

He is behind everyone else, he waits til the absolute last moment, he uses the others anticipation against them! Watch it for yourself with this in mind.

Marcus Aurelius describes this state of readiness for anything, not anticipation here:

The art of living is more like wrestling than dancing, in so far as it stands ready against the accidental and the unforeseen, and is not apt to fall.

Flow is easier for me and you in day to day lives, we know life is unpredictable, we just have to be in a state that accepts whatever happens. That doesn’t mean “everything is good”, more, can you just hold a state of curiosity? Of just wanting to know what happens next?

It can be as simple as focusing on your breath, how the wind shapes against your face, there is so much rich information in just a breeze against your face, you’re not feeling the wind, you aren’t feeling your face, but that fuzzy boundary between the two, you feel the shape of each - that’s the kind of information that can help you notice the flow around you

Like a hundred leaves moving differently in the same breeze, life is the same, no matter how disconnected things seem, how chaotic, there is just one universal “wave” of change, rippling through everything, everything is dancing to the same song, everything is moving in the same wind, there is a flow passing around you right now that you could get swept away in, you just have to notice it

For you nondual/monist folks, what do you think of flow?

I’m interested in the clear links of flow state and the lack of self reference felt in it, as well as many feeling more connected to the world around them

I hope we shift the idea flow is “losing self awareness” more towards “gaining universal/network awareness”

I think we treat it as a human ability, a special state the human does, but I think the reality is flow is just the natural state of the universe - flux, change, a process, and we humans exist in a flawed state unaware of that

I think the part of the human that thinks it is separate from the world (the ego, self whatever) is thrashing around in that flow, but occasionally things allign and it sweeps us up - it’s not that we are entering some special state, it’s the universe taking the wheel

Let’s talk about the dynamic between consciousness and the subconscious, and how this relationship isn’t what it looks like

Here is a situation which can help reveal the relationship between consciousness and the subconscious:

Someone asks for your top 5 songs on the spot, without warning - no matter how hard you consciously try, you struggle to remember even one song. But, if you were deep in the flow of a passionate conversation about music, songs would just be popping up in your consciousness without even asking, you could hear their tune, you could sing their lyrics, see the album cover

Both situations you might consciously want to recall something, but they are different outcomes. Your conscious effort made no difference, because “you”, your favourite songs, your life experiences, memories, passions, are all part of the subconscious

First, this tells us consciousness is at most on a need to know basis with the subconscious - it cannot freely delve into the subconscious, retrieving what it likes

And second, it tells the opposite is true, the subconscious has free access to consciousness - how else does it recall relevant information, or store it, how else do the deepest parts of you manifest in your decisions and actions?

This is a one sided power dynamic, if your consciousness and subconscious were coworkers, consciousness would find this alarming - it isn’t privy to the subconscious, but the subconscious sees everything it does!

It’s undeniable that conscious experience feels like we are the one in control, the observer - we experience our environment and react accordingly, it makes perfect sense at a glance

But we aren’t even experiencing all the weighing, consideration, cross referencing of our deeper subconscious…
consciousness is only privy to this intersection where subconscious and environment meet - it only experiences the “need to know” which subconscious projects to the surface, and it only experiences the environment from this one singular point - as vivid as it feels, consciousness IS a 2d, flat intersection of a 3d, deeper reality

Think about that parallel - we experience the world, but only our slice of it, while we can’t really imagine it we can understand there is a wider, objective reality behind our subjective reality. We just have a snapshot of the whole picture!

Considering this limited experience of reality, would you identify as the wider reality? Of course not, even those of us who believe in a form of nonduality can’t just identify as it at the flick of a switch

Well it is the exact same concept for “you”, you experience “you” but only a slice of it. There is a deeper “you”, the subconscious, which exists in the void outside of conscious experience

we only get a slice…do you see the parallel?

It’s undeniable that we feel like we are the consciousness, though!

For explanations sake, my name is Sam, and even though I believe in some kind of universal oneness, it’s hard not to shake the feeling that “Sam” is the consciousness I am currently experiencing.

But when we look closer like we have, it’s clear “Sam” actually exists outside of consciousness. Consciousness may contain a 2d slice of Sam, but that’s all it is. The Sam which is present in consciousness is just the bubbling surface, a flat reflection of a 3d image.

Another way of looking at it: Sam, the subconscious, has mistaken the mirror it is reflected in (consciousness) as itself. Sam cannot truly know itself because it exists outside of consciousness, it can only know its reflection.

Conscious experience is as much the world as it is “you”, it is an intersection of both, the meeting point where each can interact and know themselves.

You know those visitation booths in prisons, with the glass to see through and the phone to talk through it? Consciousness is that booth, it isn’t the human on one side, or the world on the other, it’s the intersection that BOTH can know themselves through, which I always feel points towards oneness. ❤️

I doubt this is easy to understand, it is manic and stupid, but thanks if you read

Anyone feel it’s really hard to bait a kick with footwork now? It feels like even if I somehow bait a kick from its crazy range (they lunge/teleport so far now) if I make it miss by a small amount (to counter them) it still hits me, even though it’s visibly missing?

Sometimes these ghost hits don’t even do damage, but they stunlock you/triggr an animation so they can carry on comboing or prevent your counter

It feels like punching range is a tiny bubble, and kicking range is the entire cage lol

Hi I’m a dumbass and a nut job so stick with me

I am a little obsessed with this one thing, I will do my best to explain it, and then I’d like to hear it you think it’s at all significant to yourself, meaningless, or totally wrong haha

Anyway, the thing I can’t get over is this; consciousness/conscious experience is not privy to the subconscious, but the subconscious can “see” everything in consciousness

I can’t get over the feeling that this relationship is revealing in some way

Let’s get on the same page first, what do I mean when I say consciousness: subjective experience itself

I believe that within your own consciousness, you can prove to yourself that the subconscious is “in control”, despite our intuition of being in control (or at least sharing the wheel with our subconscious)

I will try to word that better. an obvious example is maybe you were stuck on a problem, or trying to remember something and gave up, later on it just POP comes to mind as if it was being worked on behind the scenes

Whatever you are experiencing, the subconscious is obviously privy to…it’s formed of conscious experiences, it solves them, remembers them etc

but we can’t say the same for the opposite, and this really bugs me, its a power imbalance that my intuition of “my subconscious does some things, I do others” clashes with

Because I can’t just consciously delve into my subconscious, I can’t see all the inner whys and weights of every decision, sometimes were in a bad mood and we don’t even know why, and it turns out to be something that was bothering us, but we weren’t conscious of

fuck, if I try to remember my favourite film on the spot I suddenly forget every film I’ve watched!

But when some deeper passion is activated by a conversation, I’ll remember every film, in fact they’ll come to mind without me even consciously looking for them! I can’t just tap in and out of that knowledge, something deeper and “out of sight” does that.

I guess I feel like if consciousness and the subconscious were just two equal functions of the mind, they’d have equal power, no? But they don’t, one is totally in the dark on the others workings, getting fed on a need to know basis. The other can see EVERYTHING…

if you and your subconscious were coworkers, this relationship would probably alarm you 😂

I’ve always enjoyed the idea of consciousness as a sort of situation/control room for the mind, where all information across the various parts of the mind is pooled, prioritised, cross referenced etc. the function would be to take all that chaos and leave us with “the essentials” - conscious experience in this case would be the big screen in the control room, allowing all the different teams to share and access the vital information in one space

It would explain why it feels like your attention and ability to remember or engage with things are directed by something “behind the scenes”

I think we have this intuition that we, the conscious experience itself, are in control, or at least sharing control with our subconscious. Im not disputing that feeling at all, i feel it too, it’s undeniable.

but when we look closer at the power dynamic between conscious and subconscious it seems totally one sided to me, and doesn’t fit that intuition

So do you think it is at all revealing, do you even care, or should I take crazy pills 😂

For me, this isn’t about “I’m not in control, my subconscious is oh no!” It’s more, maybe I am my subconscious, and I have been mistaking the mirror i am reflected in for myself (consciousness)

As rich and beautiful as conscious experience is, in terms of who you are, could it just be a 2d “slice” of a deeper, 3d subconscious “you”

I know the quick answer is “very” lol

I’m not a huge boxing guy, I watch more MMA, so I’d like to hear from the hardcore fans and people who train

The fight that really made me think about this was the recent Usyk vs Rico - maybe my takeaway is wrong, but it felt like a lot of Ricos success (not to be reductive) was because Usyk couldn’t have prepared for him, and maybe Rico even came out in a style he’s never really used to kinda double down on that advantage?

Controversial stoppage and scorecards aside, I think anyone agrees Rico did better than he “should”, even considering he’s sparred elite boxers for a while, he shouldn’t have done that well against Usyk, right?

It really made me think - is the case that there are simply some natural/instinctive fighters, and some who really need mental preparation. Just how different would Usyk look if he could’ve game planned to the same level he usually does, and what do you think that says?

Do you think the ability to compete against a new person just off instinct is a “skill gap” that just isn’t tested in modern sports much now, given everyone has tape?

Are there any fighters known for the opposite - just making reads on the fly, fighting the same way regardless of opponent?

In MMA we have Jon Jones who’s fantastic at on the fly adaptation, but I think even he acknowledged the lack of tape on Aspinall (a guy with a lot of early stoppages) was a big advantage for him.

So yeah, are there any fighters/boxers who stand out for their methods of gameplanning (or lack of)? I know this is quite open ended but I’m interested in all of your takes

Does anyone else feel as if, hard to describe, but the underlying mechanical side of the game (dodges, damage calculation, the actual physics) is just totally disconnected from the animations/visual gameplay?

It’s like we’re playing the underlying game, and a bunch of animations that more or less match that are happening

That’s why you get “invisible strikes” knock outs and really hit and miss hitboxes

It’s great there are all these new animations, but the more I play, the more I can feel that there is a common underlying punch, or lean etc like “heavy hook” and just a variety of animations plastered over it, because often the animation simply doesn’t match the timing or position of the underlying strike/slip

You can see it most clearly in slow motion or in slow motion replays, you can actually see the hidden underlying hitbox hitting the fighter, and the animation is nowhere near, and so often the fist position just doesn’t match the hitbox rotation and impact, like it would even in ufc 4

Well, sometimes the animations all happen to be beautifully timed and allign correctly, and the game feels and looks great.

Unfortunately for me I just find the animations quite glitchy more often than not, head movement is especially bad, can any other of you guys feel that your “I frames” during head movement are totally out of sync with certain fighters animations while nicely timed with others ?