r/DebateIncelz

Incels, blackpill, feminists, any group's views in one extreme direction, and whether or not you agree with it

On average, how many new people do you talk with every week irl?

Apparently Reddit polls can only have 6 entries -_-.

But anyone else feel free to comment your answer too.

Also wondering where most people talk to new people

View Poll

Something I often see people say when someone has struggled with dating all his life is that he has to deal with his self-esteem issues and learn to look confident, that you can't expect others to love you when you don't even love yourself.

While I understand where they're coming from, I think asking an incel to love himself is like asking him to be delusional, because they have very real and valid reasons to not. I for example view myself as a loser and am deeply ashamed of who I am, so how could I have high self-esteem? The only way would be to stop being an incel so I'd actually have a reason to love myself.

I visited out of curiosity a an incel forum and it banishes LGBT people from joining and many posts are filled with homophobia. Why is homophobia so normalized there even though gay incels do exist?

And to normies: would you date an ex-incel, assuming he doesn't have any malice presently?

I saw this post on exredpill about this guy who was redpilled but went out of it a long time ago, but he felt guilt about his time in it.

Personally, I feel that if one wasn't unhinged in the group, and now have no connection with it as well as underlying theories, there's no obligation to tell anyone about it.

Although for a lot of people, it's also a hard limit to know that their partner was involved in incel spaces before, even if he doesn't believe in it at all now. So there's a lot of nuance over this topic.

I'm looking for a deeper explanation about your answers here. And all answers are valid.

EDIT: hypothetical future partners because some people take things too literally

I'm a 23 year old involuntary celibate, I would say, and I've recently felt numb and have been having a bad mindset where I just think about the black pill. I'll admit getting into the blackpill at 16 has really screwed me up, and I wish It would of never happened, but in a way, it also helped me change my looks from what I could. 7 years later still no girlfriend never had one, I have no friends left because they all moved away and a lot of them talked behind my back anyways. I'm out of college so I believe that making friends is basically over. I have a job but I can't even concentrate anymore because I think 24/7 about looksmaxxing or blackpill I start panicking what my future will look like if I don't try with everything I have now to change myself. I am trying I really am I've tried eating healthy and working out more but as soon as I get even slightly remotely happy about something, something else comes and messes it up like I've gotten a ton of acne recently and it's been leaving marks which I can't get rid of which stresses me out even more because it just doesn't help with my face. I've tried to cope with playing video games, but it's just so boring playing alone I usually quit after 20 minutes. I've tried learning new side hustles online like affiliate marketing to make more money just so I can hope that soon I can get double jaw surgery or something else to fix my face. I'm trying to go outside more and find things to do but im not exactly sure what I can do. I live like an hour away from the nearest city and even then i wouldnt know what to do if i lived in a city. If anyone has any advice let me know I won't stop looksmaxxing because I have the chance to still do it but it's really hard when having such a negative mindset

One of the common misconceptions about inceldom is that incels are nihilistic. However that is incorrect: incels hold strong, negative views about themselves, the world and women, which are value judgments. Blackpill and inceldom are fatalistic ideologies instead of nihilistic. True nihilism posits that everything has no value or meaning, including human existence itself.

I have tried Buddhism and Christianity but I think both are ultimately unsatisfactory, in that both require strict adherence to moral and metaphysical principles. So I am exploring philosophy now. Existentialism is an alternative to nihilism, but I think it might not be appropriate for me, since personal meaning creation is just another form of faith.

By treating everything having no value, including the self, it actually frees the mind from all sorts of projections and obligations. Therefore, I think it might be an antidote for inceldom.

Hi, I’m the owner of the sub and this is my monthly rant.

As an owner of this subreddit I’ve observed countless patterns of behavior that limits us as a community.

That’s not to say that the community is bad or anything, in fact this community has a ton of good to it.

But if we want to improve being open about the limitations may be helpful.

Emotional appeal typically gets the most upvotes rather than diverse opinions.

This one is kind of expected, especially when I observed my own patterns as a blackpiller, sometimes validation hits you emotionally.

I personally think this may also be a Reddit limitation, due to the nature of upvotes and downvotes, it kind of rewards circlejerking related behavior with karma and attention. We have minimal levels of control for this functionality as a moderator.

Typically the comments and posts we remove have the most upvotes because they appeal to emotion rather than productive conversation.

Additionally an emotionally charged environment makes it harder to introspect and respond in depth.

Surface level or low effort or repetitive discussion and the acceptance of such

This one hurts me personally as I want us to dive deeper on topics so we can grow in knowledge as a community.

This may also be due to Reddit’s low quality expectations, a-lot of people have accepted quantity over quality.

We will look into ways to enforce more thinking for every post, maybe a rate limit or something.

But honestly the community needs to shift into expecting more from everyone they chat with or information they read and do more critical thinking.

Frankly we have so many people but the opinions and thoughts feel the same, it almost feels like reading content from bots sometimes (dead internet theory? Lol).

Not responding to what the other person said

Please, if you notice this, just point it out and if they refuse to engage with what you said, end the conversation early if blatantly obvious.

If we keep accepting shifting the goal post type of behavior rather than diving point by point, debates will never be productive.

But also be self aware and notice when you yourself are doing this, prior to calling them out.

Sourcing with bias or treating a source as a conclusion

This one we actually ended up making a rule for, but it still occurs sometimes.

Basically I notice that some people will just spam research urls in a comment or post and act like it justifies their conclusion.

No, it doesn’t; not even a bit.

If you want to source research, please show that you have understanding of what you are linking and its limitations.

Almost all research will show patterns, not conclusions for said patterns.

Unbalanced diversity of identity

This is one that is hard to deal with as it’s a combination of all the things I’ve mentioned here and preconceived notions.

I literally want people with diverse views, yes that includes people from inceltears, feminists, blackpillers, etc.

However when those people try to engage, they get written off quickly by a few people.

Please stop doing that, be open to new views and be civil about it.

Treat each other as humans with different views rather than a satan spawn.

Poor attention span

This one is likely due to the nature of social media nowadays. Social media has been focusing on getting as much attention as possible and showing shorter content in rapid succession.

It’s the reason a-lot of people will likely not read what I’ve said here and why making change in society is so hard.

It’s almost like the government and companies want this outcome, because it’s harder to do any action/protest irl when you’re bombarded with information.

Additionally it literally impacts our brains, I always think back to before I had the internet as a kid, I was able to be bored and be ok with it. I find it much harder now to do “boring” things.

But boring things is where we grow the most, so please don’t offset your thinking to LLMs, instead do the HARD (research in depth, etc) path and actually learn.

Treating a single example as proof

This applies to everyone whether that be incel, blackpiller, normie, feminist, etc.

Humans are very quick to make conclusions of reality off of their personal experience of life.

Sometimes this shows up as a blackpiller that got rejected in high school being used as proof that all women are bad.

Or it shows up as woman finding one example of a guy who had success and using that as proof for their points.

The point is, always be skeptical at sweeping claims without sufficient thought process and evidence (notice not only “evidence”).

Try to challenge your own views more and seek opposing opinions rather than appealing to bias or emotions.

Minimodding (but what about…)

This one I find very annoying as a moderator that tries to apply our rules evenly.

If someone gets punished or muted or etc. Often times they will try to argue their case by pointing out other cases they deem wrong and wasn’t punished.

Please just stop, maybe get help lmao.

In mod mail I’m not there to argue our entire subreddit history with you.

Yes, we make mistakes, surprise we are indeed human (well I’m a pufferfish but eh).

The most productive thing you can do in modmail is chat rationally and with a calm mind with us and show some willingness to take in what we say and in some cases make a change.

Anything else will result in more punishment or being ignored.

———

That’s all I had for this post, thanks for reading.

If you have any ideas on how we can improve the sub, please let me know.

- your favorite pufferfish 🐡

Ps: special thanks to the mod team for helping me keep my sanity

looking for any proof other than personal experience, something more concrete.

EDIT: dating apps are known to be superficial, have a terribly slanted ratio between genders, and are based entirely off looks with no real connection to start off. i do not believe that how attractiveness is weighed on a dating app is the same in person, so it is not proof on its own

Not the manosphere broadly, but specifically blackpilled incels who believe that men’s looks determine dating outcomes and that some men are undesirable to women due to genetics and related factors (height, bone and facial structure, neurodivergence etc.).

Doesn’t necessarily have to be looks-related, but do you have any standards that you know, as an incel, are unreasonable to have? Maybe you maintain these standards out of pride, or simply being unable to control your feelings on the matter. Personally I cannot bring myself to be attracted to a certain group (probably not whatever you’re assuming), and wouldn’t date them given the opportunity despite my desperation. This of course hurts my already low dating prospects but I cannot see myself compromising. It is superficial, arguably irrational, but I cannot help it. Does anyone feel similar? And what is that standard/preference specifically if you don’t mind.

I know this might sound like a basic question or it might seem repetitive on here but this is my first time here lol. I just don’t really understand the thought process. To me it’s like “the people I want don’t want me, so I’m just gonna say no one does and blame everyone but myself”. Maybe that’s just due to the interactions I’ve had but I would like to get a better understanding. I’m not here to judge but I will ask questions and for clarification so if you are easily triggered this might not be the discussion for you🙃

idk where to ask so im asking here. if i were a woman and for some reason wanted to one shot an incel male, id probably play competitive shooters, start watching anime, and pick up magic the gathering or something. but what would the inverse of this be? what hobbies are attractive to femcels, or is there no inverse for this?

I've noticed a pattern where, incels are subjected to unhealthy sexual caricatures. They are either:

1. Seen as asexual beings, whose desires should be non-existent at best. This is seen more common among the ones I notice, in the sense that others don't see them as someone who have sexual desires. So much so that their families might think they are gay for the lack of female attention they recieve.

2. Or seen as hyper-pornified beings whose whole life is centered around sexual desire alone. This is more of a general caricature in the sense of being portrayed in some demonic stance.

So, both of these are unhealthy expectations/perceptions upon us, since most of us are normal people with normal sexual desires. I don't think most incels are that far off when it comes to this, compared to non-incels.

I've particularly experienced (1) in my life, since a lot of people don't really try to talk about dating stuff with me, or are surprised when they realise I want to date too. If you know my past posts, I've talked in length about being seen as an asexual being and also the (negative) surprise of those who realise I'm single for some reason.

So, how can one get out of these perceptions? And be seen as sexually attractive or desirable in general? Like, even if one isn't attracted, they might think "yeah but maybe someone might like what they see".

This could be better answered by those who already are dating or had a similar situation before.

I’m going to be as factual as I can in all of this and leave all feelings out.

I matched with a guy on Hinge about two months and we had been seeing each other multiple times a week. I am going to add these descriptions because I think based on other posts they may be relevant to your views. He is 32, male, blue collar worker, about 5’5 and probably a 5/10 on the looks scale. I am 27, female, work in finance, about 5’3, 120lbs, big boobs and a 6.5/10 on the looks scale. We both wanted the exact same thing. Serious relationship, marriage, kids.

Another thing I want to add is that I would try to pay for meals and he would refuse even though he would say he was broke and I live comfortably. He knew I did not care about money and was not using him for anything.

About two days ago I brought up the topic of defining the relationship as I am not one to waste time if it’s not going anywhere. He said he couldn’t see us having a long term relationship because I have the same name as his niece… I literally couldn’t believe it as I thought we were headed in the right direction then got met with a shitty ass excuse.

Anyway, today I see he commented on an Instagram Reel “hoflation” on a video of a girl talking about cooking for her situationship.

I went down a rabbit hole of what that means and it has brought me here. I could sense some incel traits in him but I think he kept them pretty guarded.

He has absolutely nothing going for him yet he (from what I have seen I would say I am a “high value woman”) didn’t want a relationship. I am thinking men lack the exact same self awareness that incels are claiming women have.

Bonus question: Would you consider it conclusive evidence of the person being ugly?

View Poll

I never expected to end up thinking like this. I used to be a normie who looked at dating pretty simply. You meet someone, you get along, and you see where it goes. I followed advice and did everything by the book, spending thousands of dollars dialing in my personal care from dermatologists and high end hygiene routines to personal trainers in the gym. (Helped out a lot when dating, I don’t have complaints on getting women more of their personal life and character)

Experiences led to another, and eventually there were too many of them to ignore.
I've met women who presented themselves as innocent, loyal, and reserved, only to find out later that their history was nothing like what they originally told me. The story would change. Details would slowly come out. Things they swore were true would eventually turn out to have happened.

I've seen enough of that firsthand that I stopped dating entirely

I understand that not every person who finds men attractive needs a large penis to enjoy sex, and there is a small minority of people who prefer small dicks in sexual settings. But what I find most frustrating about the anti-incel subreddits is the complete lack of acknowledgment when it comes to small penis shaming.

In real life and on the Internet, men with small dicks are constantly told that they are lesser men, inferior, and their anatomy is a punchline to every joke. It's the only form of bodyshaming that has yet to experience any significant social pushback, in sharp contrast to body positivty movements surrounding plus-sized women and shorter men. Any time someone wants to hurt a man, they will say he has a small dick. Any time a man does something that people find gross, it's because he secretly has a small dick. Trump has a small dick, fucking Hitler had a small dick...I could go on.

I don't think it's unreasonable for men with small penises like myself to conclude that, on the whole, it's not safe to trust other people to let them see us naked, when the consequences for being exposed as being small are usually widespread social ostracization and shame. As such, I find it reasonable to still be a virgin at 31 - potentially having sex is less important than protecting myself from the relentless cruelty and dehumanization of others.

And BTW, I don't consider this to be a gender-specific thing. I view both women and gay men as equally untrustworthy and unsafe to reveal myself to.

i stumbled upon this sub by accident, but have this question for you. i guess because my hunch is that you can't be blackpilled without being cruel to yourself. and in reading up on the comments and the posts i felt like many people here are quite cruel to themselves in their actions and beliefs. maybe i am wrong. but i have dealt with self-directed cruelty quite a bit and i have noticed that the less cruel i become to myself the better my life seems to get. so i do understand the instinct to be cruel to yourself, but i think it's an instinct worth resisting. in any case, looking forward to your responses! (this is not as much a debate as it is an attempt at understanding, i am also not found of the adversary method in knowledge production so won't be following it)

edit: thank you so much for engaging with me, i've replied to most if not all comments. and this has been an insightful exercise. also just wanted to share some of the resources that came up in this conversation for reference:

helen longino's science as social knowledge

devon price's laziness does not exist

byung chul han's the burnout society (and a video that explains it)

an intro to philosophical theories on truth by carnedes.org

So I have accepted that dating isn't for me. I don't have the face, head, body, height, superficial charm and lifestyle required for dating women

And that's ok. I really want to accept this and move on with life. I really want to find coping mechanisms and find fulfillment in other things. I don't want to hate women for being more selective than men. I really want to accept this biological reality. There's absolutely no entitlement at this point. Its totally my problem, not theirs.

But barely a day goes by without being bombarded by messaging from women that:

• The bar for men has never been lower - (The bar has never been higher for looks and height. The bar is only low for men they find physically attractive).
• There's a male loneliness epidemic and men like me are single because we worship Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan, Elon, or Trump - (Even though we've been like this long before the manosphere or Tate surfaced).
• We're probably unsafe, threatening, potential abusers - (even though men who are actively dating and having sex are far more likely to harm women than single, celibate men and I've never harmed a woman in my life).
• We give off bad energy that women can smell from miles away - (even though we have no issues interacting with women in non-romantic, non-sexual contexts).
• We have unwashed asses, lack hygiene, smell bad, and have bad teeth and breath. - (A claim so ironic given that they found these issues in men they literally dated and who weren't incels by that definition. Meanwhile most of us have very good hygiene, our jobs require it and its something we have always considered a given)
• We're man-children who are unemployed, play video games all day, and are financially lagging - (even though many of us have decent careers and are otherwise disciplined in life).
• We're looking for a mommy, can't do household chores, and need a bangmaid and chef - (even though many of us have been living on our own for years and are completely self-sufficient in chores, cooking, cleaning, etc).
• That we lack emotional intelligence, kindness, empathy - (things that only matter when you're someone's type and a relationship is established)
• that we're right-wing, neo-n*zi, far-right etc (I didn't vote for Trump)
• That we're porn-brained (even though I've never progressed to the point where I could've expressed such desires)

So is there any possibility I can admit and speak my reality without being ridiculed, pathologized, or turned into a cartoon villain?

Or is there a deeper, more sinister philosophy behind this that we're missing? One whereby the "defeated" should not be allowed a catharsis? One that is built around schadenfreude?