Development of OIA forms to into the Classical Sanskrit and then to MIA
▲ 13 r/sanskrit+1 crossposts

Development of OIA forms to into the Classical Sanskrit and then to MIA

This mainly a continuation of my ongoïng argument with u/srkris on the nature of the topic stated in the title. However, I hope that this will help to inform others of it. Obviously, I am not a historical linguist, but I shall make sure to underline where ever I'm using my own reasoning to achieve a conclusion and where I am referring to real papers and books written by professionals.

To Srkris in particular: I would like to implore you to read everything I'm about to layout thoroughly. My experiences in our previöus bouts have shown me time and time again that you seem to not fully read my arguments and/or consistently misunderstand what I'm saying.

To begin with I would like to state what exactly it is I'm trying to prove:

>The Old-Indo-Aryan (OIA) stage of languages/diälects (hereafter just 'forms of OIA') is one that involved more than just pure attested Vedic and Classical Sanskrit. Vedic does not simply evolve into Classical and Classical is not the sole mother language of all the MIA languages. This does not imply that there were parallel non-Vedic or proto-Pāli civilizations in South Asia; rather, all forms of OIA would still be spoken by people of what we would consider the same culture and civilization as Vedic and post-Vedic peoples. All forms of OIA would still closely resemble and be mutually intelligible with what we call Vedic and Classical Sanskrit. Moreover Sanskrit was no longer the primary spoken language of the sub-continent by the 4^(th) BCE (c. 400-300 BCE) at the latest.

Now, let us get started.

The first thing I would like to bring into consideration is a call to reason based on the structure of Early Vedic sociëty. Given that the people of the RV were organized into various semi-nomadic "tribes" or viśaḥ (ref. the Jamison & Brereton RV, introduction), it is not difficult to reason that many of such viśaḥ did not conform to the standards of Vedic Sanskrit as we have it in the RV. In fact, I find it hard to believe that many different groups inconsistently in contact with one another would speak the exact same homogeneous form OIA for hundreds of years.

Next, let us examine the early OIA evidence that points towards non-Vedic OIA. Primarily, we have the OIA attested in 14th century BCE Mittani documents that shows distinct phonology from attested Vedic, primarily in the form of the presence of voiced fricatives: Bi-ir-ia-ma-aš-da = priyamazd(h)a instead of the Vedic form of priyamaidha (Cl. -mēdha) and vašana(š)šaya = vāžhanasya instead of Vedic vāhanasya (ref. Witzel Autochthonous Aryans? §18). I know my opponent has previöusly raised an objection on the nature of this language, questioning whether it could not be Iranian, but this can be resolved by the fact that the Mittani documents rather helpfully mention the Vedic Gods by name (again see Autochthonous Aryans? §18). This, in itself, should be enough. It is a clearly a distinct non-Vedic form of OIA. But let us say you want to consider this an exception since it migrated so far from India; surely the rest of OIA in India is just "Vedic".

Then, we can examine the evidence within the Vedic corpus itself as well. Contrary to popular belief, even it is not as homogeneous as people might think. Consider the RV ळ vs variöus later texts preserving the older ड, consider KS preserving the original श्छ instead of च्छ or छ, consider क्श in place of ख्य among the Kurus, the preservation of सुवर् in TS, and य्म instead of ज्म in variöus texts including KpS (Micheal Witzel, Tracing the Vedic dialects, §6).

But even those are just phonetic differences; I will quote Witzel on actual textual citations that speak of different forms of speech:

  • the famous ŚB quotation, he 'lavo he 'lavo, spoken by the Asuras, which is believed to be from an early Eastern 'Prākṛt' for: he (a)rayaḥ.
  • the better speech of the Northerners: KB 7.6
  • the higher tones of the Kurus, Pañcālas: ŚBM 3.2.3.15; or Kurus, Mahāvṛṣas: ŚBK 4.2.3.15 uttarāhi/°hai)
  • the son of a king of Kosala speaks "like the Easterners": JB 1. 338 = ed.Caland §115
  • the names of Agni/Rudra in the East viz. West: Śarva with the Easterners, Bhava with the Bāhīkas: ŚB 1. 7. 3. 8, cf. 6. 1. 3. 11-15
  • the gods, Gandharvas, Asuras, and men speak differently, ŚB 10. 6. 4. 1
  • so do the gods on one hand (rātrīm) and the author of the passage in question (rātrim), MS 1. 5. 12 : 81. 3-4
  • the dīkṣita has his own language
  • so have the Vrātyas (cf. H. Falk, Bruderschaft)
  • note the difference in the language of women: they speak candratara, probably "more clearly", with higher pitch; at RV 10. 145. 2, a woman uses the younger (and more popular) kuru instead of kṛṇu.
  • (All citations to other papers and footnotes can be reviewed in Tracing the Vedic dialects on pp. 4-5)

But let us say all this is not convincing enough. Let us say all of these citations are somehow only minor diälectical differences and are still the same Vedic. Can we find traces of other forms of OIA even then? Yes, yes we can.

Consider the Proto-Indo-Iranian root *źʰáȷ́źʰ- "to greatly laugh; roar" which is a reduplication of *źʰas- (whence हस्) "laugh". In Vedic, this root has devoiced the *gẓʰ in to kṣ, thus forming the root जक्ष् of the same meaning. However, there is one exception to this in the form of RV hapax legomenon of जज्झतीः (also written जझ्झतीः). It should be pretty clear that this is not onomatopoeia (Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch Des Altindoarischen Volume 1, pg 562). One can quite clearly see that the poët has clearly borrowed the word from an otherwise unattested form of OIA, and not knowing how to say gẓ, transformed the word into jjh, just as later Prākṛts would transform kṣ to cch.

In case this seems a stretch, we can see the influences of forms of OIA that preserved the voicing of this cluster as far as Pāli and the Prākṛts: (ug-/pag)ggharati not reflecting Skt. क्षरति; jhāyati, not reflecting Skt. क्षायति; jhijjai/jhīṇa not reflecting Skt. क्षिणोति; and of course jagghati reflecting a relation closer to *जज्झति and not Skt. जक्षिति (Oberlies' Middle Indo-Aryan and the Vedic Dialects). My opponent's counterargument that these are simply the influences of some infiltrating Avestan related language cannot reasonably be taken seriously as cognate roots for क्षै and जक्ष्/हस् seem not to even exist in Proto-Iranian (as far as I can see) and by the fact that this phenomenon is observed as far back as Vedic. It is for the same latter reason that we cannot just disregard this as plane irregularity.

Pāli and the other Prākṛts are also useful in showing traces of variöus other archaic features that are not present in attested OIA; for example: PIE *-ṛh2- is continued by īr in Sanskrit like in tīrtha but Pkt. tūha suggests *tūrtha as well. The Pāli and Aśokan (i)dha and (hi)da continue PIE *dʰe whereas the Sanskrit form has already debuccalized to इह. A more complete list can be found in Oberlies' Middle Indo-Aryan and the Vedic Dialects, at §2.1.

But this is not all. Consider the regular external sandhi below:

>aḥ + X (voiced consonant or a) = a + u + X = au (Cl. ō) + X

This is, of course, the remnant of Proto-Indo-Aryan final sibilants, which became *z in such positions. When this *z was dropped from Vedic, it became u. However, in other places, the dropped *z was also transformed into an i: *azdhi → aidhi (एधि). Thus, one might expect that we should see aḥ + X becoming ai (Cl. ē) + X, and indeed there are a very small number of instances of this in the RV for a single form: सूरः॑ (the gen. sg. of स्वर्); ex. 1. 34. 5: सूरः॑ दुहि॒ता → सूरे॑ दुहि॒ता. Everywhere else in all of attested Sanskrit, only conversions to u are seen. (Micheal Witzel, Tracing the Vedic dialects, §6.7) (Witzel does suggest that the near absence of the i version in the RV could be because of redactors, but underlines it by saying that more instances preserved through misunderstanding would be expected). Despite this, we can reason that a form of OIA must have existed which predominantly used the i version of this sandhi as it was popular enough for the suffix of languages like Eastern Ashokan Prākṛt to become -e instead of -o for etymologically -aḥ ending forms (Tracing the Vedic dialects, §6.7 for the prākṛtic -e ending).

Thus, the evidence presented above quite clearly shows that Vedic must have had contemporaries.

Next, let us move on to proving the non-linear development of OIA into MIA.

This is mostly done already by the evidence presented above confirming the influence of other forms of OIA on the Prākṛts. However, we have further evidence to prove that Classical Sanskrit is not the sole parent. Consider that Pāli exhibits the masc. pl. ending āse/āso), and the a-ending inst. pl. ehi which are continuations of Vedic endings -आसः and -एभिः, which are completely absent in Classical. So too with the infinitive in -tave, the absolutive in -yā, and the participle in -āvi(n). A more thorough list can be found in Oberlies' Pāli Grammar on page 8 in the introduction. Page 9 also starts a 70 word list of words found in Vedic and Pāli but not in Classical, which is described as only a "first attempt" at cataloguing such a category.

(Reasoning) Doubtless, my opponent will object that the evidence I have presented here is insufficient as the majority of Pāli words can still be derived from Classical Sanskrit, but this is irrelevant. I have no doubt that the majority of Pāli words can find cognates in a large number of later Prākṛts, but this does not make Pāli their progenitor. As I have stated previöusly the forms of OIA would still be similar enough to understand one another, thus making it possible to derive Pāli from any one of them. For example, you can even derive Pāli medhā from the Mittani IA mazdha if you wanted.

Then there is non-linear development of Classical Sanskrit. Observe that many Vedic forms are largely r-centered: लघु is unattested in the RV, चलति is similarly missing in the TS, MS, and RV (from find command on sanskritdocs and titus). These forms of OIA are called the r-diälects because they do not preserve the original r-l distinction of PII and PIE. However other diälects preserved this distinction and these mixed with the r-diälects in Classical along with minor contributions from possible l only diälects as well. Thus we have variöus doublets in Classical, which are sometimes synonyms but also often take up different semantics: चरति-चलति, रघु-लघु, शुक्र-शुक्ल, लिख्-रेखा etc. (T. Burrow, A Reconsideration of Fortunatov's Law). I would also recommend reviewing Some Aspects of Pre-Historic Indo-Aryan by Madhav Deshpande for a greater overview of the more complex development of Classical Sanskrit.

Finally we come to the last portion of this argument: Sanskrit's decline as the primary spoken language.

First, to establish a base line for the latest Sanskrit disappears as a vernacular, we have only to look at the Aśokan Edicts which are clearly written in Prakrit and are usually dated to the 3rd century BCE (300 to 200 BCE) (Masica, Colin, The Indo-Aryan languages). My opponent has previously claimed that Aśokan Prakrit (which seems to be early Magadhi itself?) is somehow just vernacular Sanskrit, but any reading of the edicts should prove otherwise. Take, for example, a sentence from Pillar VII:

>एतं देवानंपिये पियदसि लाजा हेवं आहा। एस मे हुथा। अतिकंतं च अंतलं हेवं इछिसु लाजाने कथं जने अनुलुपाया धंमवढिया वढेया ति; नो चु जने अनुलुपाया धंमवढिया वढिथा; से किनसु जने अनुपटिपजेया; किनसु जने अनुलुपाया धंमवढिया वढिथा ति; किनसु कानि अभ्युंनामयेहं धंमवढिया ति।

This is obviously not Sanskrit, and is not considered Sanskrit by literally any credible source that I could find. Consider also that this was an official formal edict, not necessarily even the common vernacular (compare more latinized formal English with common vernacular forms of English). Thus, we may reason that the common speech might have been even further from Sanskrit than what we have presented to us.

However, a language's first attestation does not imply that it first developed then and there. Indeed, we can reason that it probably existed at least a century before, if not more, given the extensive sound changes that would need to have occurred between Sanskrit and Ásokan.

We can look at the Buddha for more concrete proof of this, as he is normally considered to have spoken some kind of Prakrit and not Sanskrit (Norman K. R., Philological Approach To Buddhism, IV). It is generally agreed upon that the Buddha died sometime around 400 BCE (ibid. pg 38). Therefore, we can conclude, that at the very least Sanskrit was not the language of the people by the 4th century BCE.

Thank you for reading.

पुण्यं प्रशस्तम्।

Works Cited:

  1. The Rigveda The Earliest Poetry Of India by Jamison & Brereton
  2. Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts by Micheal Witzel
  3. Tracing the Vedic Dialects by ibid.
  4. Etymologisches Wörterbuch Des Altindoarischen Volume 1 by Mayrhofer, Manfred
  5. Middle Indo-Aryan and (the) Vedic (Dialects) (Miscellanea Palica VII) by Thomas Oberlies
  6. Pāli: A Grammar Of The Language Of The Theravāda Tipiṭaka by ibid.
  7. A Reconsideration of Fortunatov's Law by T. Burrow
  8. Some Aspects of Pre-Historic Indo-Aryan by Madhav Deshpande
  9. The Indo-Aryan languages by Masica, Colin
  10. Edicts Of Ashoka by the Beloved of the Gods Possessing Loving Sight, edited by G. Srinivasa Murti
  11. A Philological Approach To Buddhism by Norman K. R.
u/_Stormchaser — 6 days ago

My proposal for a better flair system piggy backing off of u/srkris' idea.

This is a continuation of this discussion. As per u/ksharanam's request I am making this post to detail how my proposed flair system will work for community approval. u/srkris might also make a more detailed post proposing a hierarchical system as an alternative.

The Proposal

The basis of my proposal is that we reward users with specific flairs for outstanding posts and comments showing expertise specific aspects of Sanskrit, as each Sanskrit learner often specializes in different things.

How To Gain A Special Flair

If a moderator scrolling through r/sanskrit randomly sees a post or comment and deems it worthy, then they will grant the author the appropriate flair. However, if a post is too old to be visible or you would like to nominate a comment or post directly (whether they be yours or another person's), then you would post the nomination as a comment onto a pinned post made for this purpose.

The Flairs

The flairs I propose are thus; all Sanskrit words are in प्रातिपदिकरूपम् and would be changed based on the each receiver's preferred gender:

वैयाकरण/Grammarian - for people who show exceptional skill in the technical grammar of the language, including but not limited to Pāṇini's sūtrāṇi.

शैक्ष्य/Phonetician - for people who have exceptional knowledge of the phonetics and phonotactics of the language.

रचयितृ/Composer - for people who have exceptional skill in writing poëtry and prose, especially those with a good understanding of syntax.

नैरुक्त/Etymologist - for those who have an exceptional knowledge in the historical developments and etymologies of Indo-Aryan.

वेदिन्/Vedist - for those who have an exceptional knowledge of the Vedic forms of the language, specifically knowledgeable in reconstructions, accent, Vedic grammar, and Vedic vocabulary. Essentially u/Dhvasra.

Format

Each flair should have a specific color associated with it so as to distinguish them form each other and self-chosen flairs. A sixth color would reserved for those showing more than one expertise. Flairs for more than one expertise or for personal flair + expertise would formatted thus:

वेदिन्/Vedist | रचयितृ/Composer

संस्कृतोत्साही | वैयाकरण/Grammarian

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u/_Stormchaser — 13 days ago

The confusing case of the Anusvāra

Throughout my journey in Sanskrit, I have taken a particular interest in Śikṣā, or the correct pronunciations of all the phonemes in Sanskrit. Be it ऋकारः, ऌकारः, विसर्जनीयः, ज्ञकारः, चवर्गः, रेफः, or वकारः, I have always found a sufficient amount of evidence in phonetic treatises to point me towards the most likely ancient pronunciation.

However, when it comes to अनुस्वारः, things get a lot murkier, as the only description that the ancient sources give is that its only source of production is the nose; essentially. branding it as a "pure nasal". This is, of course, exceedingly unhelpful, as no nasal sound can actually originate only from the nose. Be it nasal vowel or consonant, the mouth must play some sort of role.

before presenting my own theory on the subject, I will evaluate the most common theories I have seen throughout my Sanskrit studies. To do this, I will use these criteria:

  1. How plausibly the theoretical pronunciation could be interpreted as a "pure nasal".
  2. How distinct the pronunciation is from all the other nasal consonants (since, for example, संराट् is wrong and only सम्राट् is right).
  3. How plausibly the proposed pronunciation is able maintain the metric heaviness of a सानुस्वारम् अक्षरम्.

That said, I find most people are divided into two camps when it comes to interpreting the sound:

  1. The अनुस्वारः is a nasalization of the vowel to which it is attached (अं = ã)
  2. The अनुस्वारः is a nasal consonant.
    1. This group is divided to many sub-camps, ranging from अं = aɴ to अं = am. The most interesting and plausible of these is presented in this monograph; it essentially says that the अनुस्वारः is the nasal sound produced when the mouth is at rest (i.e. when the lips, teeth, and tongue are closed).

Theory 1 is highly plausible when looking at criteriä 1 and 2, but must be rejected because of criteriön 3. A word like अंशः simply cannot be heavy-heavy if it is pronounced as ãśaḥ. Any vowel lengthening like that of Latin (um = /ũː/) doesn't make sense as not only does the language differentiate between अं and आं, texts also rather explicitly split a vowel and its following अनुस्वारः into different fractions of the syllable.

Those of theory 2 who suggest any proper nasal consonant fail criteriön 1, and in the case of the अं = am theory, also criteriön 2. Some have argued that the uvular nasal is somehow not an oral consonant, but this is ridiculous as not only is the uvula an oral body part, ancient phoneticians most definitely would have recognized the uvula as being a distinct point of origination and assigned the anusvāra there. Moreover, the uvular nasal is by far one of the rarest sounds to occur in language (often only occurring because of the presence of a uvular plosive like /q/) and it would be entirely ludicrous for Sanskrit to just spontaneously develop such a sound when none of its near ancestors nor itself posses any uvular sounds.

The sub-camp of theory 2 presented in the monograph linked above is the most plausible of those examined thus far. However, despite the attempts of the author to try and reason out of it, the proposed pronunciation is not actually discernibly different from a मकारः in any way, failing criteriön 2.

This is starting to feel like one of those triängles, where one can only achieve two points and never the third. So what is the correct pronunciation. To explain, I think it is best that we look at the oldest phonetic treatises: the प्रातिशाख्यानि.

The most peculiar of these is the अथर्ववेदप्रातिशाख्यम् (APr.), which is the only text I have encountered that doesn't recognize the existence of the अनुस्वारः at all. Instead it is equated to the चन्द्रबिन्दुः or अनुनासिकः (आँ) (for context, the चन्द्रबिन्दुः is universally recognized as an actual nasalization of the vowel to which it is attached and usually only occurs due to Vedic सन्धयः where a word-final नकारः is dropped after a long vowel; there are some other optional instances in classical as well, like सँस्स्कृतम् and अन् + च = अंश्च or अँश्च). However, the text still readily differentiates the length of vowels with अनुस्वारः and says they are still heavy even when the vowel is short. As stated before, it is rather hard to believe that a word pronounced as ãśaḥ is truly heavy-heavy, so I suspected that something else must be at play.

Next we have the तैत्तिरीयप्रातिशाख्यम् (TPr.) which is also rather interesting. Consider these two rules:

>The jaws, also, are more closely approximated, and the tip of the tongue is brought into close proximity to the upper back gums, in ṛ, ṝ and ḷ. || 2-18 ||

>As also, according to some, in anusvāra and svarabhakti. || 2-19 ||

Rule 2-18 seems to be describing the schwa part of ऋवर्णम् and ऌकारः (/ᵊɾᵊ/, /ᵊɾəː/, and /ᵊlᵊ/), since TPr. recognizes these vowels as being non-homogeneous. However, 2-19 is the interesting part, suggesting that the anusvāra is pronounced something like /ə̃/. This is the closest thing we have gotten to a real description of the sound. 1-34 also classifies the अनुस्वारः as ह्रस्वः.

Now, I want to return to a statement I made previously: "texts also rather explicitly split a vowel and its following अनुस्वारः into different fractions of the syllable". Specifically, this is from the वाजसनेयिप्रातिशाख्यम् (VPr.) 4-148 to 149 (or 150 to 151 depending on the edition). It essentially says that when combined with a short vowel, the anusvāra makes the sound 1.5 मात्राः, with the अनुस्वारः taking up the latter 0.5. When in combination with a long vowel, the vowel stays at 2 मात्रे but with the अनुस्वारः taking up the latter 0.5.

This is rather strange as no other non-vowel sound influences vowels this way. Even in a syllable like आम्, the vowel is still independent of the consonant despite being in the same syllable.

So what does this all mean? Well, in my opinion, this indicates that the अनुस्वार is a literal nasalized after-vowel, where something like अंशः is pronounced as /ɜɜ̃̆.ɕɜh/ (where अ = ɜ) and धनूंषि is pronounced as /dʱɜ.nuˑũ̆.ʂi/. As odd as this may sound, it would explain why the अनुस्वारः still causes heaviness, is described in such a vowel-like manner in TPr., and why it edits the vowels to which it is attatched. It also comfortably passes the three criteriä I have set above, as, under this theory, अनुस्वारः is simply unpronounceable without a vowel before it because it would just be "purely nasal" without one.

The only problem I see with this is the TPr.'s description implying /ə̃/, which I believe is a generalization approximating the the अनुस्वारस्य effect on अकारः, since अं is the most common form in which अनुस्वारः manifests. This also explains the "according to some" part of the rule.

But of course this pales in comparison to the only true theory: anusvāra echo.

mama tarkaṃa paṭhitavate ahaṃa dhanyaṃa vo vadāmi. namāṃāsi vahahaha. /j

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u/_Stormchaser — 17 days ago

अन्येषामपि एष क्लेशोऽस्ति किम्?

u/_Stormchaser — 28 days ago

अर्जुनः– अहो बत महत्पापं कुर्तुं व्यवसिता वयम्। यद्राज्यसुखलोभेन हन्तुं स्वजनमुद्यताः॥ कृष्णः–

u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago
▲ 57 r/sanskrit+1 crossposts

ग्यान् ग्यान्निति श्रुत्वा मुमूर्षामि। वैरशुद्धिं प्राप्नवाम!

u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago
▲ 8 r/tamil

Are the temple pillar elephant-lions யாளி or யாழி?

I’ve seen both spellings online, so which one is it?

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u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago
▲ 72 r/1984

The real reason I think they weighted so long to arrest Winston.

Near the beginning of the book, there is this passage:

"Winston’s greatest pleasure in life was in his work. Most of it was a tedious routine, but included in it there were also jobs so difficult and intricate that you could lose yourself in them as in the depths of a mathematical problem—delicate pieces of forgery in which you had nothing to guide you except your knowledge of the principles of Ingsoc and your estimate of what the Party wanted you to say."

Now consider O'Brien's work. Most of it deals with tedious people like Syme, who will never consider the deeper implications of what the Party does, but are nevertheless too intelligent to keep around. Doubtless, there are many Symes around that speak a little too plainly and need to be removed.

But Winston? He is the difficult and intricate work that O'Brien is entrusted with. Unlike the others, Winston analyzes the philosophical implications of what the Party is doing: how lies are reshaped into truth, how a an uprising of the proles is required, how thought is being constricted and history erased. Most people don't care about this; Julia only gets slightly philosophical because of Winston, but is only really "a rebel from the waist downwards".

"In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening. By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything, and what they swallowed did them no harm, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird."

In a way, I think this is the reason why she was able to fly under the radar for so long; she simply didn't care about overthrowing the Party until Winston. But Winston stuck out and was identifiable by O'Brien and by Julia, only that O'Brien recognized what he would become first.

It is this philosophical tendency that the Party wants to watch grow and reach its zenith, because there is no better way to test their methods then by brainwashing a philosopher at the prime of their rebellion–no better way to cull a population of its would-be revolutionary thinkers than by predicting, crushing and "debunking" their arguments just as they grow into them.

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u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago

The real explanation as to why the udātta and svarita changed.

As we all know, the udātta and svarita in traditional chanting have changed from the original values from high/rising and falling to mid-tone and peaking tone, respectively. While I previöusly thought that these, along with the sannatara, were artificial changes deliberately made, I recently found some papers that changed my mind.

Specifically, I learned about the phenomenon of peak delay that occurs in many tonal and pitch accent languages like Chinese. Jamison argues that this is how the svarita shifted in its value. Moreover, it seems to be quite common for a rising pitch to be preceded by a slight lowering, making the existence of the sannatara–which I previöusly thought was one of Pāṇini's inventions since he is the sole source of it–more plausible.

https://gbegus.github.io/assets/pdf/begus_the_phonetics_of_independent_svarita_in_vedic.pdf

https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/icphs-proceedings/ICPhS1999/papers/p14_1881.pdf

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u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago

मम भ्रातुः लीढमद्व्याधिरस्ति

किं लीढिमद्भवति?

>!लीढि मद्गोलौ!<

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u/_Stormchaser — 3 months ago

For a very long time, I have believed, like most others on this subreddit, that stress accent in the Classical language was introduced by Europeän scholars superimposing the Latin rules of accentuätion onto Sanskrit; as Whitney states:

>80. The phenomena of accent are, by the Hindu grammarians of all ages alike, described and treated as depending on a variation of tone or pitch; of any difference of stress involved, they make no account.

>96. Since the accent is marked only in the older literature, and the statements of the grammarians, with the deduced rules of accentuation, are far from being sufficient to settle all cases, the place of the stress of voice for a considerable part of the vocabulary is undetermined. Hence it is a general habit with European scholars to pronounce Sanskrit words according to the rules of the Latin accent.

I, and the many others, therefore, have vehemently battled against the usage of stress accent in Classical Sanskrit, as any system that might have been was completely unattested.

However, I recently came across this request on the Wikipediä talk page for Sanskrit. In it there is quote from Masica, Colin. 1991. The Indo-Aryan Languages:

>'Among the other factors that need to be considered is the new Latin-like stress system referred to earlier. Although it came to characterize Classical Sanskrit, it may be considered a MIA development. Briefly, the new stress fell on the first long syllable, up to the fourth from the end, starting with and going backwards from the penult. In other words, it never fell on the final syllable, whereas the Vedic accent frequently did so.'

I was intrigued, since I had seen Colin's book before and knew it was well researched, cited actual sources, and was more modern than other books that insisted upon this system of accentuätion. I found the full quote to continue as:

>… Already in Pali, this resulted in a weakening and confusion of the vowel in the post-accentual syllable (Vedic candramā́h 'moon' > CI. Skt cándramāh > Pali candima.

For the first time, I had seen actual evidence of the Sanskrit stress accent, so I dug into the sources Colin had listed:

>9. At least one authority, namely Bloch, disputes the existence of a stress system (as distinct from "rhythm") in MIA, or for that matter in NIA. Most, however (e.g., Jacobi, Pischel, Geiger, Grierson, Chatterji, Turner), hold that there was one, although they are split into two camps as to its nature. See below.

>10. By Bloch, on grounds that there was no stress, and by Jacobi followed by Grierson on grounds that the Vedic system nowhere survived, the new system of Classical Sanskrit having prevailed everywhere.

>12. For further discussion see Allen 1973 and 1983.

(Apparently, Mahārāṣṭri might be an exception that continued Vedic accent placement in its own stress system, but this is disputed; see #MIA-LQ-3 on page 186 of Colin's book)

Looking into Allen 1973, I found he said much of the same, but with more examples of reduction and a citation to his book "Accent and Rhythm". In it, on page 157, I found perhaps the most convincing piece of evidence yet:

>That this existed already in Sanskrit is suggested by certain accentuations prescribed in the Phiṭsūtra of Śāntanava, which are at variance with the Vedic, and by such a rule as that (ii.19) 'a heavy syllable of a polysyllabic word (is accented) when followed by one or two light syllables'.

The rule he cites is लघावन्ते द्वयोश्च बह्वषो गुरुः (Commentary- अन्ते लघौ, द्वयोश्च लघ्वोः सतोर्बह्वच्कस्य गुरुरुदात्तः । कल्याणः । कोलाहलः ॥)

Thus, having seen the evidence of stress-induced reductions and from the Phiṭsūtra, I feel that this "up to the fourth from the end" stress-accent system is rather plausible. However, I would encourage others to research this (especially the views of Bloch, as I haven't looked into that yet), and see what they can find.

Links to my sources:

Colin's book: https://archive.org/details/indoaryanlanguag0000masi/page/182/mode/2up

Allen's 1973 paper: https://libsysdigi.library.illinois.edu/OCA/Books2009-09/illinoisclassica/illinoisclassica81983univ/illinoisclassica81983univ.pdf

Allen's book: https://archive.org/details/accentrhythmpros0000alle/page/156/mode/2up

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u/_Stormchaser — 4 months ago