u/dumbdit

Just want to learn lee sin from some good players. Any suggestions?

When do you build lethality and when do you build your normie eclipse sundered dd?

Context d3 peaked last split otp belveth. I struggle make it work in emerald rn.

New belveth comes online way too late and too slow imo. Any even numbers fight pre-lv9 is really tough and really flippy. And you ganking power is way worse. You end up falling back to camps or if things don’t work out either you die or you don’t get the kills from the gank you lose agency in the game really fast.

I will go as far as you shouldn’t make any plays or whatsoever when you have camps up before first item unless you can get kills almost 100%. If you do so it is an incredibly risky and you are giving your agency to your laners and put yourself behind. Even if you want to get your riven top fed belveth pick is very ineffective

Before You used to be able to clear very fast when you can snowball. Even faster than now. If you have kraken in 8 minutes while being 2-0. You probably will end up farm way quicker and had more gold per minute and had like 170 cs at 20 minutes. Now you end up with less farm and less items because you have to deal with 3-0 laners that invade you at minutes 10.

Your best bet right now is full clear into hover bot lanes. If you path top your botlane will explode unless top is a wincon. You also can’t proactive gank because you lose 3v3 on paper so you just want to counter gank.

I don’t see any high elo for players thrive on belveth now. Mo100z is definitely struggling. Bad apple is stuck 1k lp gm given he was a top 50 challenger. Any thoughts?

TLDR before rework if you lose the game at 20 minutes it feels like you deserve it because you couldn’t get the snowball rolling. Now if you lose at 20 minutes, well I guess I deserve it too because I picked a selfish belveth champion

Yuntal into shieldbow into ldr/mortal reminder into stridebreaker into DD

Lethal tempo triumph alacrity coupe de grace
Triple tonic freebots

Double adaptive flat health

Is there any way to have a circle like attack range for ward range turned on perma? It’s never smooth because it’s always out of the max range.

I’m not familiar with the max range of ward***

I made a couple posts about how belveth will feel like. A lot of people said I'm wrong. I think I am correct.

I think the biggest concern with the midscope is how will she scale well into late game with her current kit?

You should expect have you camps contested early, lose agency in the early to mid game. Overall you get less stacks and items before. You scale slower than before even you scale better. Before the rework you overall scale way quicker by snowballing kills, taking enemy camps. Now even you 10 cs per minute you don't really scale as fast as 3/0 at minute 10. The scaling diff only comes into play when every one is 5/6 items which shouldn't be happening when you play pre-reworked bel.

Expect not to contest any objective before 2 items or level 11. Every weakest jungler in the roaster spikes a lot harder at level 6 can scrap better pre-6 in the river. Evelynn, Noc, fiddle, amumu, kayn. Even zyra and karthus will fuck you up early. You afk 15 miutes just in exchange to a somewhat decent late game.

The E damage is so low right now. You can't even KS. E is your range tool and now it's just cosmetic. Which in turn your range threat is so much weaker.

Also she ranged comps become even more deadlier to her becasue of the nerfed dash speed. The fast dash before makes her cover the same distance in a much shorter time. You now are more prone to get kited. CC'ed. Even you hit harder it doesn't matter. Pre-reworked bel is a fighter jet. She always plays with numbers with the extra out of combat ms. Now I think blue smite is necessary.

Tldr: You scale slower but better. You hit harder but you are more prone to CC and get kited. You lost early game agency. You have to wish you team are not behind enough to make use the scaling.

Tldr: If what I said below is true, you spend 12 minutes afk and come out as a half-assed Yi with worse outplay potential in late-game, then what's the point?

I actually think the biggest concern with this midscope is not whether Bel'Veth scales harder, but whether her kit can actually convert that scaling into late game wins.

Yi, Gwen, and Viego are probably the closest jungle champions to Bel'Veth's archetype, and they are considered strong late game champs in the jungle roster. They don't just scale through stats. Their kits give them the tools to actually function well in late game.

Yi:

- Q gives untargetability to dodge spell, mulitple Q resets to dodge more spells and gapclose

- R removes slows and gives MS, gives excellent access to backline

- Resets prolongs your R duration, let you have insane clean up potential (flash or dash over walls is his biggest weakness, that's why vs yi you want to bait his R with Q'ing over wall)

Gwen:

- Q and passive auto gives percentage true damage

- W gives untargetability at best, resistance steroid at worst

- R Q gives AOE damage and slow

Viego:

- E helps with flanking and accessing backline

- Possesion gives untargetability

- has a ton of mobility with mulitple W's , R's , and takedown spells from pick up Possesion

- has oneshot potential to 100-0 a stunned squishy

What do these champions have in common?

- Survivability

- Mobility and target access

- High DPS

- Strong cleanup potential

Bel'Veth has the DPS, but she is lacking in the other areas.

Bel'Veth's current kit are underwhelming and inferior to these champions in these aspects.

Survivability

Her E is powerful, but it has several problems:

- It is interruptible.

- It forces her to stay in place.

- It is both her defensive tool and her finishing tool.

She is very vulnerable to CC. Good players can hold their CCand use them when it's point blank. A compentent Lux or Hwei is not as free as you think. They won't use their CC from distance like a silver. So you are forced to walk at them and use Q reactively. But now you don't have bonus MS. The only reliable mobility of bel'veth is wallhopping.

Mobility and clean up capbaility

Bel'Veth's mobility looks strong on paper because she has four Q dashes. However, most of her mobility is tied to using terrain and wallhops with True Form to act as a psuedo-flank.

Her Q does not solve her biggest problem: sticking to targets. She has to deal with flash, peel, CC and disengage.

Yi straight up runs you down.

Viego either gets a flank, oneshots the squishies, or plays front to back extremely well.

With viego you killed the Naut and posses (gap close) -> use the hook (gap close) - Viego R (gap close) -> viego W (gap close) -> AA.... -> pick up the zed (gap close) -> WW (gap close) - > R***(gap close)*** -> resine and repeat

Bel only can flank well if she has form. She doesn't have the clean up capability of YI and Viego, (or Gwen's ghost). You almost are gated by the CD of your Qs. Even you have Q's it needs a lot of room for the chasing.

DPS

This is where bel is strong. Also the only upside of bel over them is

- you're not ult reliant. You can make plays after plays.

- you have the baron wincon.

- you are barely stronger 1v1 when even gold

That's it.

Shoving more stats into Bel'Veth does not suddenly turn her into a late game hypercarry. A champion can scale extremely well in stats but still struggle to perform late game if their kit cannot reliably apply those stats. Nasus and Veigar are good examples.

Riot is asking Bel'Veth to give up a lot of early agency. She spends the first 10-12 minutes farming toward her first real power spike, but the reward needs to justify that sacrifice. The question is whether becoming a stronger stat stick is enough when champions like Yi have better access, better cleanup, and better survivability.

Even champions like Gwen can access their power pattern earlier. At level 6, she can run people down with R and Ghost. Bel has to wait much longer for her scaling to come online.

Even before the rework, Bel'Veth could struggle in coordinated late game fights. Imagine a game where you are 12/0 and full build while everyone else has 4 items, but both teams ha are dancing around Baron or Dragon waiting for an engage. Your stats are massive, but you still have the same problem: finding an angle to enter, sticking to targets, and outplaying the enemies cc. Those other 3 champs just have better tools to deal with these situations while spike earlier and scale just as hard late game.

The rework does not fully solve that problem. It gives her more scaling, but it does not necessarily give her the tools to convert that scaling into wins. Meanwhile, her tempo becomes slower and her sidelane pressure is weaker.

So what is the actual payoff?

With the Bel'Veth midscope rework gutting her early game in exchange for late game scaling while her kit current has problem reliably outputting such dps. Riot is officially killing off one of the last expressive playstyles in the jungle.

What makes belveth rewarding to play is not the stat checking aspect. It’s she has options. A ton of options. It legit makes you think hard how you should approach the game from the loading screen. She is like a Swiss knife in the jungle. She is the perfect soloq jungler. She is extremely blindable and adaptable. She is one of those junglers who could step outside the standard full clear clear box and get the game rolling without shooting yourself in the foot. You start playing the game from minute 0. Now? She is being forced into the exact same braindead, lowrisk, powerfarm loop as every other standard jungler. If your lanes int? Sorry gg go next.

Imagine she gained a huge playerbase. The riot nerfs the shit out of her. It wouldn’t surprise me some otp can drop from low master to emerald. That’s what happened in 2024 gwen jungle 2024 tank Diana.

An OTP kindred, nidalee, lee sin, reksai will almost always be a better jungler that a otp lillia karthus when you put all of them into a J4 imo. Power farming junglers are extremely one dimensional, all you left for skill expression is mostly mechanics. All your play pattern is farm up get to your spike and play fights. Jungling should be about decision making, risk management. You don’t even have to f keying lanes post rework because you are so weak early your definition of a free kills is almost nonexistent. You don’t even bother to walk into midlane for a 100hp enemy zed shoving before reset. Because he can just walk away from you.

A master gwen jg otp and a gold gwen jg otp will almost play out exactly the same other than the execution of the champion and some simple macro here and there.

On the other hand there is a massive difference between a master belveth and a gold belveth. It’s not even close.

I’m sure a lot of people are excited for the rework. But I truly feel sorry for people that don’t understand this. What makes belveth belveth. You are not playing jungle. You are playing “belveth jungle”.

People complain about ranged top and spam all chat ff15 x9 jg afk while riot is turning every jungler into braindead full clear slave and lock them into the jungle. You cant even sacrifice your agency and enable a lane because all you can do is clear.

The only man on earth can rival or even clear ninkey. Where is he? The world needs him. The gwen community needs him. Still remember he dropped 20 bomb against Agurin in NA with his corki jg. I miss his racecar gwen

Edit: is killag here? I think nobody knows xerizo anymore in this sub. Do you still talk to him?

She will be just another nasus is the jungler. So much depth so much fun so much skill expression so multi-dimensional. R.I.P.

So basically, you're not really a champion until level 9, which is around the 12-minute mark when you unlock the 1-second Q cooldown.

Before then, your options are very limited. For the most part, you're just minimizing and avoiding the enemy jungler. You almost want every game to be a chill 10-minute, 0-0 game. You can barely duel champions even like Fiddlesticks, Karthus, or Ivern. You have shit 2v2 and you run for your life whenever you see almost anyone on your screen. In the early game, you're arguably the weakest jungler on the entire roster.

Most weak early-game junglers spike at level 6 because they have game-changing ultimates. Bel'Veth doesn't. She still needs takedowns for her form and level 9 for her Q cooldown. So you're weak early, but you're also reliant on objectives or takedowns to become relevant, which feels like a weird design. Even if you secure Grubs, your level 1 R still isn't that impactful because they lowered the stats up till lv11.

Your gank threat is almost non-existent early. While W refreshes the direction of your Q, you still have to wait for Q's cooldown, which depends on its rank. You can only take freebies. You're basically a pre-6 Gwen, except with a knock-up that has a huge wind-up.

For people who have enough mastery on Bel'Veth, you know the threat of W is often stronger than W itself because it's so easy to Flash, and casting it roots you in place. A lot of the time, you lead with autos and Qs instead. If they Flash your W, your gank is almost guaranteed to fail. Now that she can't auto-Qs before level 9, imagine how little gank threat she actually has.

So you end up in a situation where you can't duel and you can't gank. Your only real option is to farm and take freebies until you hit your spike. I imagine Bel'Veth won't perform very well in higher elo unless she has strong lanes around her, making her a situational pick at best. I don't see any reason not to invade Bel'Veth and make the game volatile. It always feels awkward having a weak early-game scaling jungler in higher elo.

The art of playing Bel'Veth has always been knowing how to snowball and execute that plan well. Knowing which matchups you can invade, how to path your invade, when to full clear, when to gank early. Those were the decisions that made her rewarding. To me, she's always been a thinkingman's champion with strong mechanical skill expression. The challenge was creating your lead in the first place and then knowing how to snowball and close out the game.

Right now, her power curve is so extreme that she's arguably weaker than Kayle or Kassadin before level 9, and then she slowly turns into a stat stick.

Changes like these contribute to that feeling:

• E execute was removed, so timing E is now mostly about soaking key abilities instead of finishing kills.
• Q dash speed is slower, making you much easier to hit with skillshots.
• Her hitbox is bigger.
• She lost the bonus out-of-combat movement speed, so her tempo is worse.
• Out of combat movement speed is lower, making her side lane pressure and pick potential weaker.
• W also feels like it has a slightly longer wind-up.

In the late game, she now has higher DPS and is tankier, but she's also much clunkier and slower. You still need a good flank angle. Teamfighting on Bel'Veth has always been difficult because you need to:

• Pick the right moment to engage.
• Wait out key cooldowns or dodge them with Q.
• Use wall hops effectively to jump on key targets.
• Find a good flank, ideally coming from fog of war.

Now it feels more like you just slam your keyboard, right-click, and face-tank people.

Fundamentally, though, her kit still isn't that great in coordinated teamfights if your opponents know what they're doing, similar to Irelia. She still lacks the untargetability or invulnerability that champions like Master Yi, Gwen, or Viego have. Her cleanup also isn't as reliable as Yi's.

Accessing enemy backline carries has always been one of Bel'Veth's biggest problems unless you can use wall hops to close the gap or catch someone isolated in a long side lane where you have room to spam Q and chase them down. In proper teamfights, people should still be saving their CC specifically for you.

I imagine this version of Bel'Veth will be much stronger in lower elo because her gameplay now leans more toward Warwick or Briar. Players just run into fights, and she'll excel in longer games where her stats eventually take over. Riot will probably balance her around those elos, nerf her stats, and she'll end up feeling pretty underwhelming in higher elo.

What makes Bel'Veth so fun and skill expressive is how adaptable she is. She's a true jack-of-all-trades jungler. She can invade, full clear, pressure side lanes with high tempo, and teamfight reasonably well depending on the situation. Right now, she feels extremely one-dimensional. She's basically become the jungle version of Kayle. Please tell me how many of you lock-in Bel'veth because you find it fun playing teamfights post 15 minutes? Now riot is trying to fulfill her late game scaleing fantasy and want people to have fun right-clicking people at minute-30 without changing her kit while make you afk in the first half of the game.

TL;DR: Your early-game options are heavily restricted in exchange for becoming more of a late-game stat stick. The problem is that her kit fundamentally doesn't offer enough outplay potential to support that identity, which contradicts Riot's stated goals for the rework. I expect she'll perform well in low elo and eventually be balanced around it, similar to Briar or Warwick. Once that happens, Riot will probably just nerf her numbers. She will be dead in higher elo.

I could be wrong but I'm just theroy-crafting here. Also the changes that I have problems with are probably the goals perfectly achieved by riot. This is how they want bel'veth to be. I imagine people like the current version Bel'veth will not agree on this direction at all. And people that don't like her current state will love this. It's almost like a 180 flip.

I'm not trying to gatekeep here. I'm a Bel'Veth OTP and peaked D2 this season. I'm only sharing my perspective because I think a lot of people misunderstand what this champion's identity actually is. To me, Riot essentially took a Nidalee-esque champion and tried to turn her into a late-game scaler by simply giving her better stats without fundamentally changing her kit to support that fantasy.

Edit: gramar only with AI

I think belveth is perfectly fine as is. I love the invading lv1 and I don't know why riot does not want this to be a viable strategy. It's not like she has no counter play. I don't know why Riot wants all junglers full clear and fight bot 3v3 every game.

Who says she is a late game scaler? She is a snowballing champ! Why can't everyone learn to it's champ identity and play like that? I don't want another nasus jungler yet they want to make another one. She is just a weaker nidalee with decent scaling into mid late game. Why can't riot just leave her as is?

It's always okay to have a niche one trick champion. It's okay to not have a champion that is popular and doesn't perfectly align with the lore. You are not writiing a novel or making marvel movie. It's just sad to see it go.