r/recoverywithoutAA

like we all know Aa is a cult and its founder was just a sex pest hiding behind religion, tale as old as time.

but the program itself is actually shit.

like seriously the steps don’t help you get better in any meaningful capacity.

youll often hear them broken in 3 phases, trust god, clean house, help other.

realize you’re an alcoholic and give your life to god…. they say your higher power can be whatever you want, but it’s god because this stuff is literally built on Christianity.

well first problem is that god isn’t real. but the mind is a powerful tool and people can believe hard enough to where they will paint everyday coincidences as acts of god and that helps build their “faith” .. ok fine

clean house. basically all the trauma you carry is bullshit and you’re awful and selfish for feeling bad….. oh we are only being assholes cause we want you to get better not because this is how we take out our own frustrations…. screw your feelings… oh whats that? all this invalidation actually makes people worse? oh you’re drinking again? well you’re just doing it wrong!

ok now take all this abuse and pass it down!

seriously everything after step 1 is not real. and Aa has become so synonymous with recovery that even people on the atheist subreddit recommend doing secular 12 steps - well the problem isn’t just the community, the steps themselves do more harm than good.

aa is literally blind leading the blind.

im working with a phd psychologist now and is helping me uncover and understand and validate my trauma and lived experience after a lifetime of being invalidated!

A few days ago I had commented on a FB post quoting something from the AA big book. The one where it issues the famous challenge of “if you doubt this (my definition of alcoholic) go the nearest bar and try drinking… (part in parentheses mine.)

I suggested that the passage is rhetorical, meaning the reader has already tried that many times or they would not be in that folding chair drinking lousy coffee.

This and the nonsensical retort led me to again read that chapter. It is a well crafted piece of persuasive writing. The chapter describes in detail the cardinal symptom of alcoholism, loss of control. That line which does not really prove anything places what follows on a personal level.

It ties that down with an anecdote. This is known as the “anecdotal fallacy” or emotional heuristic. It engages the non rational part of the brain centered in emotional response which overrides rational thought. Personal stories introduce strong bias. Research shows that people are much more likely to agree with one story even contradicted by hard evidence.

That is just a part of the setup. Once you agree to one premise it is easier to agree with what follows. That is where the last line delivers the conclusion ‘you cannot overcome alcoholism without God’. It is a classic Non Sequitur. When you agree with premise A you agree with premise B which logically does not follow. It is couched in language making it seem like it does. Commonly used in interrogation and con games.

The next is the “We agnostics” chapter which is really an insult to the intelligence of agnostics and atheists everywhere. It softens objections to the pinnacle of the entire text.

The grand finale. How it works and the steps. No argument or anecdotes there. There are only categorical statements of faith to be repeated out loud at the start of every meeting.

About 2 years of AA and drinking all the time, broke down and asked for help. My mom got me in a rehab within 10 hours I was on a flight. Felt like a pussy being a big dude with others that had massive issues over mine and I’m all “yeah I’m here for white claw” about 40-60 a day tho.. with my family and a few left friends I’m happy to say I don’t miss or want any booze again. Good luck to everyone that is still struggling.

I’ve been having a lot of conflicting feelings about a 12-step group I still attend.

There are already parts of the literature and some aspects of the program that I don’t really connect with, and reading this forum has made me think a lot about what people sometimes call “13th stepping” or predatory sexual behaviour toward newcomers.

There’s a woman in my group I’ve become quite close to. She has had relationships or situations with several people in the fellowship. I’m not judging her for that, and I’m not saying that every person she has been involved with is automatically a predator either.

What bothers me is something more specific.

When she was very new and in a vulnerable place, one long-term member became involved with her almost immediately. Things ended very badly. I recently spoke about it with someone who knew what happened, and his response was basically that neither side was completely innocent and that she wasn’t exactly as naive as I might think.

And maybe there are grey areas. I know her side of some other situations doesn’t always contain the whole story, and I’m very aware that nobody in these rooms is a saint. We are a group of addicts, myself included, and people can be messy, contradictory and hurt each other.

But I still can’t get past the power imbalance when someone is brand new, vulnerable and trying to recover.

What makes it harder is that this particular person seems to have behaved similarly with other newcomers, yet nothing really happens. He continues attending and the behaviour seems to be treated as something everyone simply accepts.

There has also been another situation where someone who says he is trying to change contacted this woman sexually/romantically while she was actively relapsing and intoxicated. He later apologised, but again it left me wondering where the boundaries are supposed to be.

I don’t want to turn this woman into a helpless victim or pretend that every situation is black and white. I also don’t want to demonise everyone involved. But surely acknowledging complexity doesn’t mean ignoring behaviour that takes advantage of people when they are at their most vulnerable.

This has left me feeling very uncomfortable with the group and with the culture around it.

The problem is that where I live there really aren’t alternative recovery meetings or secular groups I can attend in person, so walking away completely would also mean losing one of the few recovery spaces available to me.

She has made it clear that she doesn’t want me to confront these people or bring what happened to her up with the group, and I want to respect that. But I honestly don’t know what to do with the anger and discomfort I feel around some of these people now. Part of me even feels a responsibility to keep going in case another vulnerable woman walks through the door and the same pattern starts again, so that maybe someone is there to notice it or step in. At the same time, I’m wondering if I’m taking on a responsibility that isn’t mine. Am I overreacting? I genuinely feel completely lost about how to handle this.

i quit recently and was so excited to "make community" and see how "connection is the opposite of addiction" but i ran into an old problem i forgot about which is why i always ditched recovery groups and went back to drinking and using, not just aa, but every type of even secular group, i have a particular kind of neurodivergence and trauma response, as well as a psychotic disorder that hasnt been properly medicated yet. i talk off topic or trauma dump, or am scattered hypervigelent, cant create a coherent train of thought without a tangent, and ocd to the point of it being disruptive.

i say things that are against social convention without realizing it. for years ive gone to numerous types of groups hopeless because my "disruptive" "defects of character" never change. im the "egomaniac' or the "large personalities" they like to talk about as paraias. all i wanted was help, sisterhood, love, like they give to everyone else but i can tell nobody can stand me and i cant read the room. idk what to do i cant find people like me or who will accept me. i feel im unwanted ive even been straight up kicked for trauma dumping then felt guilty. i did it again recently and after years ruining my chances of getting into new meetings cause of my behavioral problems ive been at a loss thinking i dont deserve sobriety.

at a week and a half sober i almost ended my life today because i just want to be in community with other addicts in recovery but im too mentally ill to ever fit into a group setting, i could never even work a job, im that mentally unwell. im not just awkward or shy or arrogent and self centered, im actually something akin to a paranoid schizophrenic with poorly working meds and severe cptsd. people just berate the things i say i hate it. i dont even know why im sober or what there is to live for without drugs and alcohol in a world where im too mentally ill to even get sober friends and community, its feels so grim like im better off using

Hello, I’m a little nervous posting here but I feel like I need to get some feelings off my chest while being anonymous for now. I have struggled with shyness and anxiety for entire life, and symptoms of ADHD and depression started becoming more apparent during high school. I am now in my senior year of college after struggling through the entire time. My dad died after a very long battle with cancer while I was in college a few years ago, and since then my depression has worsened and my struggles with school and life got so bad that I had to take a semester off and continued to have poor performance in school afterwards.

I have been in therapy for years and years and in college found a therapist who is great. I have also bounced between psychiatrists and have found one now who I am confident will be able to help me with medication (currently Prozac and Ritalin, which have been good so far)

However, I have felt for a few years now that my drinking habits are problematic. I only started drinking in college and have had frequent blackouts and events where I have taken drinking way too far and just acted stupid, embarrassing, or put myself at risk. Recently, I don’t go out to bars at much, but have started drinking by myself more often, or when I start drinking I will stay up all night drinking and not be able to stop. I do not drink most days, but I do sometimes have the urge to drink to deal with stress, and when I do drink I can’t just drink casually. This is also where some issues with cocaine use come in. I never buy it for myself, but I know that my best friend and my boyfriend both have it on them if we go out, even if they don’t mention it. I don’t want to fault them because they are absolutely not encouraging me to take it, but if I’m drunk I will ask them for it and since they’re drunk as well they always give. This doesn’t happen super often, but I am genuinely concerned about my ability to control myself around substances nowadays and it seems to be getting worse. I feel terrible after if I get really drunk and high, but in the moment it feels like the only thing that can take away the pain, grief, and depression I feel.

I guess my question is how do I approach seeking help about this? I like my therapist and psychiatrist a lot but I have this weird idea that I will be judged harshly if I mention having trouble with drugs and alcohol. My mom does know that I tend to have drinking problems (she has struggled with this as well) and regularly checks up on me about that, but I find myself lying to her because I don’t want to disappoint her.

I am just so scared that this will develop further, I’m ashamed of myself, and reluctant to admit that I’m having an issue to anyone despite the fact that I have a great support system. I just needed to vent and see if anyone has ever felt this way or has advice. FYI, my boyfriend is extremely caring and loving towards me and I know would deny me any drugs if I told him about this to keep me safe: I just don’t want him to feel like he is responsible for my actions because I need to learn to control myself. Sorry for the long post.