Multiple "Max is overdramatic" posts (Ginny & Georgia) and "Santos is the devil posts" (The Pitt) are driving me straight up a wall.

JUST ONE FORKING DAY WITHOUT THIS PLEASE. Or like, just create a megathread for hating on a character (not that that worked in The Pitt sub w/Santos since we still had to endure the multiple "she's so evil and if you have any empathy for her you're a psychopath" threads.)

JUST ONE DAY PLEASE. I AM BEGGING PEOPLE

(I'm currently rewatching G&G and so I'm waiting to post my analysis of it and Max since she's such amazing undiagnosed ADHD & OCD rep that I feel seen and while I was originally going to post it in one of the G&G subs I don't want to deal with people focusing only on what I say about Max.)

"We feed our media and our media feeds us."

tl;dw (though you should I <3 Shanspeare); WE MUST critique media that we enjoy. It's not "doing too much," it's actually necessary for a healthy society

Why is this here? We're not always talking about wives & mothers. Well, yes, but those examples have prominent discussions surrounding them. Hence the naming of the phenomena after Skyler White. And I do believe the below paragraph from Breaking Bad: Why We Follow Philanderers & Murderers But Hate Their Wives is HIGHLY familiar to all of us. Female characters are never allowed to have flaws.

>Reading Twitter and comments sections rapidly becomes wince-inducing as certain members of the audience seem determined to mis-read the show-runner€™s intent. Or simply refuse to regard prominent female characters with any degree of empathy. Worse, even if the emotions are not as strong as I€™ve stated; if say, someone simply dislikes the characters but does not truly loathe them, the language they use to express that discontent tends to veer towards either the ignorant or the straight-up misogynistic. Women aren€™t just €œannoying€ or €œunlikeable€ which is the terminology that gets slung around about male characters. No, women are €œbitches€, €œwhores€, €œsluts€ or worse.

The Skyler White Effect:

The cognitive dissonance that happens when a female character is presented by the narrative as absolutely correct in their judgment of a male character, and yet the viewers assume she’s the bitch. (this will be added to the wiki)

>"The Skyler White Effect and the Much Maligned Mothers of TV"
.
The vitriol coming Skyler White’s way may be more intense than with other tv characters, but it is by no means new. Antiheros have been populating American television more and more in the past decade, and no one is riper for hatred than their wives. Betty Draper. Megan Draper. Catelyn Stark. Lori Grimes. Carmela Soprano*. Why do we hate them? The easy answer: because they’re annoying. Maybe they cheated on their husband. Maybe they’re a bad mother. Maybe the viewers are just misogynists. The real reason, however, is because they dared to get in the protagonist’s way.
...
This brings us to notorious television pariah Skyler White. Poor maligned Skyler. A character so hated that she led to the terming of the Skyler White Effect: wherein a female character judges the male protagonist’s bad behavior in a completely rational way, and the audience hates her for it. Never in my lifetime has there been such an undeservedly hated character on a tv show. Breaking Bad is a show about flawed people. Even the sweetest characters do terrible things, and some of the worst people have moments of genuine caring. However, on a show full of murderers, drug dealers, liars, and thieves, the hatred launched at Skyler is ridiculous.
...
In a male-dominated tv universe, women are set at an insurmountable disadvantage. Unless they are Action Girls, basically going along with the desires of the main character while simultaneously having non-traditionally feminine pursuits such as fighting (Arya Stark and Brienne of Tarth come to mind), they are doomed to be loathed.
...
We can accept a woman who does horrible things when she is the star of the show. Olivia Pope, Emily Thorne, Brenda Lee Johnson, and Buffy Summers come to mind. All of them, to varying degrees, have done truly terrible things and the audience cheered them on. However, each of these women got various comeuppances (losing the respect of her team, unwittingly causing the death of her “sister,” losing the faith of her husband, and being dumped for not being needy enough, respectively) and we collectively agreed that they deserved what happened to them. There’s apparently nothing so cathartic as seeing a powerful woman sob. A strong woman who goes too far inevitably has to learn her place. A man, not so much. Don Draper and Walter White are horrible people, but they remain the heroes, and when the fall, we root for them to get back up. Sadly, when the women who stand in their way fall, we kick them while they’re down and secretly hope they’ll die before they can get back up.

(there are a lot of links in that article to discussions about the different women it brings up: Skyler, natch, Lori Grimes, Betty & Megan Draper, Catelyn Stark, etc). Speaking

Essay: “Skyler is Such a Bitch!,” And Other Unfair Breaking Bad Observations

>When the New York Post ran a poll, during one of the periods light on whacking, about “how to fix The Sopranos,” some of the answers included “kill all the women” and “Carmella’s whining too much—whack her!”…And yes, Carmella was guilty of complicity, hypocrisy, and numerous other sins—but Tony was the one who frequently killed people, among many other crimes. That he was never judged as harshly as his wife is a sexist double standard that, to this day, persists. More recently, it’s been pretty common to see sizable fan backlashes against wives and other major female characters, whether it’s Betty Draper on Mad Men or Lori on The Walking Dead. And now we have the anti-Skyler White movement.

I don't really need more examples, do I? Anyway I also wanted to post this to help show folks see that we're transitioning away from The Pitt exclusively.

Hey everyone! I'm u/AdoraBelleQueerArt, a founding moderator of r/NoSantosHateReborn (and the originator of the name NoSantosHate if you're wondering why we're named that). This is a space to have deep and critical discussions of characters we're unable to discuss in their respective fandoms (aka the Skyler White effect) that doesn’t always take itself seriously. I hope that here we can create a space that everyone will feel comfortable in (except bigots, natch).

Remember, we don't always have to agree, but as long as everyone is approaching the conversation in good faith and with mutual respect we won't have any issues. None of us knows everything and being open to learning or changing one's mind when new information is presented is a sign of strength!

Here we put on our critical thinking caps and embrace nuance while rejecting bigotry (misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc). We're excited to have you join us for thoughtful analysis and conversations!

This name is not indicative of the type of content you can post here (only Pitt shit), but from my time in the fandom trenches I've learned that it helps to weed out folks who don't care to engage critically, or in a respectful way by naming a character that should not be in any way controversial. It's not actually a requirement that you like any of the characters but it is required that you are able to discuss them with respect and in a nuanced manner. These characters are complex and messy just like us and no one is an angel or devil.

What to Post
Post anything that you think the community would find interesting, helpful, or inspiring. Crossposting from other subs is welcome and encouraged especially if it is a topic you would like to discuss in a thoughtful manner! Feel free to share your thoughts, photos, or questions about well, anything, including memes & shitposts if they strike your fancy and you think they fit the vibe.

Community Vibe
We're all about being friendly, constructive, and inclusive. Let's build a space where everyone feels comfortable sharing and connecting.

This means NO:

• Misogyny
• Antisemitism
• Anti-Blackness
• Racism
• Transphobia
• Queerphobia
• Islamophobia
• Misogynoir
• Ableism

ABSOLUTELY NO SLURS

(you get the picture) - I will NOT hesitate to get out the hammer. Hate is not tolerated here!

We also have expanded/detailed rules and resources at our wiki so check it out!

How to Get Started

1. Say hi in the comments if you want and let us know your favourite character (or characters)
2. SUGGESTIONS FOR USER FLAIR! (yes I'm randomly assigning some now based on comments y'all make, but I know you might want to assign your own. Also - if you want whatever I assigned removed please just lmk)
3. If you know someone who would love this community, invite them to join. PLEASE! Many of you got here because we saw your well thought out and media literate comments! You too can save others sanity!
4. Interested in helping out? We're always looking for new moderators, so feel free to reach out to apply.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate you!

Hello my lovely fellow sub members who enjoy actually being able to discuss maligned complicated characters like Dr. Trinity Santos without getting shut down IMMEDIATELY and downvoted into oblivion. (Not to mention the name calling and all the other bullshit.)

So this space is a place to engage in those conversations about much maligned femme characters in TV, movies, & literature as well as larger meta discussions. I know we've all seen the same venom targeting femme characters in other shows and we deserve a space to discuss them without being told "it's not that deep" or to "touch grass" or that X is the scum of the earth and so are we for supporting them. (That last one's my personal favourite.)

Post tags:

I have made tags for the TV shows I could think of off the top of my head, you can always comment here or use the editable flair "[your unlisted tv show here]" (it's right after all the show flairs when you scroll) & I'll get to creating a flair all it's own. To not get totally bogged down Movies & Books only have a single tag each. Post tags are now REQUIRED to keep track of different fandom discussions.

Go! Save those you love and/or enjoy discussing media with from the toxic fandom spaces. Let's get this community humming! New folks - check out the rules & the wiki!

(Also if you think the wiki is missing something or you wanna mod lmk!)

EDIT: are the Discworld & Expanse fandoms the only ones that don’t do This shit?

EDIT: so i know that the poll isn’t finished yet but i talked with some of the more active posters/commenters and they were really gung-ho about the change. I’m still going to set up live discussions for Pitt episodes in S3 so trust we’ll still be discussing it (we'll still have live discussion threads for each episode)

I’m meh. Learned my top surgery date was moved to Dec 23 and i just learned about that so I’m either gonna disappear into the woods or go to this cranberry festival in Wisconsin (i would DIE for cranberries!) I hope y’all’s week has been better then mine!

How do y’all feel about opening up the space to a more general space to have critical conversations about media, especially around complicated femmes who are pilloried in their respective fandoms.

View Poll

>If season two of The Pitt felt off to you and you couldn't really put your finger on why, here it is. The main character of the show isn't a person, it's a room. And season two replaced that with Robbie.

Of course that doesn't apply to the folks here - we've all been aware of the bait and switch for a long time. I am a fan of Bobby Foster's analyses and breakdowns - I actually have been sitting on a few Pitt vids of his that I wanted to share.

>[The ensemble] multiplies the number of reasons to care about the show. A central protagonist show gives you one door in, but an ensemble cast gives you 10. And if one character isn't intriguing you in an episode or for a whole season, you may fall in love with a whole different character. And I feel like that's why those shows do so well and generate the fan communities that they do, cuz you can have so many people invested in so many different things, but the show respects all of them.

And The Pitt itself ran that engine in season 1 better than like anything else on television at the time, which is what makes season 2 so frustrating cuz season 1 is proof they know exactly what they're doing. Season one of The Pitt is what we all fell in love with.
...
[Robbie's] our way in. He's our perspective that we use to understand the place. But here's the difference, though. Robbie being the entry point into The Pitt isn't the same as The Pitt being about Robbie.

NO IT'S NOT FRUSTRATING AT ALL. lolsob

I do enjoy how he explains the difference between a POV character and a protagonist. Part of the problem when you bring these points up in any other forum is you get screamed at that the show is about Robbie, and IT IS - I haven't seen anyone denying that*,* but it's also about literally everyone else. Season 1 we saw multiple people struggle with their character arcs not just Robbie. It's why people care about the other characters. I do somewhat root for all of them, but because of how they were developed in Season 1 I definitely have my favourites and I'm not alone.

And OMG I AM SO HAPPY that someone else saw how Dr. Al-Hashimi's divulgence of her disability centers FUCKING ROBBIE. And as a disabled person I really cannot even put into words the RAGE I feel about this scene.

>Why The Payoffs Stopped Landing:

>When you funnel a bunch of story lines into one character and and the other arcs start feeling anticlimactic or just getting dropped completely. Like when you think back on season 2, there's a lot of character threads that just kind of disappear or, you know, they just don't resolve. They never pay off.

>...

>It was all about one person's big moment. And this is where the antilimactic feeling came from that a lot of people were talking about. If a arc builds all season long and doesn't hit a peak, not only do you feel off about it, you do feel betrayed as a viewer because you've invested so much expecting this payoff,

LET THE CHARACTERS HAVE ARCS IN SEASON 3!!!!

Obviously this includes Robbie! Give us the magic in a bottle that was season 1! (I have more thoughts, but they're still solidifying - I just wanted to share this before I forgot (yay ADHD!) and highlight some of it

So many things happening this weekend - Mexican independence celebrations, Rosh Hoshanah - L'shanah Tovah!

Yeah i know i changed it - i miss hearing about y’all are up too. Soooooo….how’s everyone and what are y’all up to? I’ve been fundraising & organizing around the Big Bend border wall fight (see my pinned post if you want a cool sticker for a donation to the no Big Bend wall coalition).

I know it’s been quiet here and I’ve been MIA, but that’s cuz I’m still mentally in the woods and then plunged into the fight to save one of my fave places in the world (and in less then a month I’ll be there to help fight the bulldozers).

BUT ANYWAY - i tried watching Falling Skies & omg it’s THE WORST and this is coming from someone who likes the TV show Zoo (that one’s delightfully horrible).

i (sadly) listened to folks and watched “Sharks of the Corn” and it’s ALSO the worst. “Great white lives matter????” Fuuuuuck off. I couldn’t even enjoy it as has lots of incel writing. Ugh

What are you watching? What are you up to? What are you looking forward to? Do you have any favorite B movies?

So this is a long shot - I accidentally stumbled upon a shop that does in house b&w film development that had shelves of used equipment for sale. It's literally just the 1-2 aisles of equipment and the sales desk. That's it. Nothing more.

It is on the North side and I want to say on one of the E/W streets. I tried googling, but they're all showing fancy pants photo stores. I'm trying to find cheap/affordable darkroom equipment for some free classes I'm going to be teaching.

Thanks in advance & no problem if no one knows, but *fingers crossed*