u/ProfessionalJolly934

Yes, I'm late to the party, I know, but as the self-proclaimed Homer nerd in this sub, I've been wanting to see this for a very long time, but travel plans have restricted me. Now that I'm quite free and back home, I've been meaning to ask.

First of all, my parents probably don't know what The Odyssey is (my dad might, being a cinephile). They do know I'm reading The Iliad though, so I'll tell them something like, "Its a movie about the sequel to the book I'm reading." That's the easy part.

The hard part is actually booking the tickets. So there are two options, both on a Friday or Saturday:

1. A mall that is closer to my home, more familiar, and has a 10:45 PM show. According to my calculation, it'd be 1 AM by the time I'm home, which'd be a huge no-no unless its with my parents, or
2. A mall that's farther away, not very often visited, but has an 8:45 PM show. I'd be home by 11:00 or 11:15 PM (slightly better).

Which reminds me, should I ask my parents accompany me or my friends? My mom won't come, but my dad might, and like I said, he's a cinephile and watches English movies as well. Or I could ask my family friends (who're college students). If The Odyssey the kind of movie you could watch with your parents without them judging you for the awkward scenes in it (if any?).

Thanks for the help!

Okay, so I just learnt that he had a few hero cults (wild stuff on its own), but like what exactly did the worshippers of the man with one of the most famous punishments in Tartarus do? Why worship him? I'm intrigued.

Edit: Tantalus in this picture is reaching of fruits way above by stretching his arms while ignoring the one right in front of his face. Is he stupid?

(Included both Agamemnon being killed in his bath and by a stool, because I couldn't decide which version was my favourite LOL)

So, its no secret that Agamemnon and Clytemnestra have one of the messiest, most toxic marriages in Greek mythology. Of course, people take sides, and say Clytemnestra was a wronged mother and Agamemnon was a cruel jerk, but I think we can put a bit more nuance in viewing them rather than making it plainly black-and-white. After all, these characters are complex people. This post is more about trying to understand both people rather than justifying either of them.

Okay, first let's look at Clytemnestra's side. Clytemnestra was, in some traditions, married to a guy named Tantalus (not to be confused with the one in Tartarus). Agamemnon marries her after killing Tantalus AND the newborn child of hers and Tantalus'. This is recounted in Apollodorus' Bibliotheca and Euripides' Iphigenia at Aulis. Obviously, we've come with a horrible start, and it shows us that Clytemnestra's hatred for Agamemnon probably wasn't started by the sacrifice of Iphigenia, but rather was much older. Oh, and in Hyginus' Fabulae, Tyndareus fears that Agamemnon would want to divorce Clytemnestra to compete for Helen's hand. No wonder.

When Agamemnon goes to Aulis, he sacrifices Iphigenia. Worst of all, Clytemnestra and Iphigenia are brought to Aulis with the idea that she'll be married to Achilles. Clytemnestra is a delighted mother, she brings with her gifts in many boats. But when Agamemnon's plot is revealed, she confronts him, but the sacrifice happens anyway (though Iphigenia "willingly" does it). The messenger tells her she "miracuously vanished", but Clytemnestra is skeptical and believes its a lie made up by Agamemnon.

In Book 1 of The Iliad, Agamemnon compares a slave girl, Chryseis, to Clytemnestra, and says he prefers the slave over his wife, which should've been wildly disrespectful even back then. And he does this in public, at a war council with all the senior leaders present. When Agamemnon is at war, Clytemnestra gets into an affair with Aegisthus, and when Agamemnon returns with Cassandra as a concubine (which of course, makes her angrier), she and her lover kill both him and Cassandra. But, we're told by Apollodorus that Nauplius, father of Palamedes, convinces Clytemnestra (and many other women) to cheat on their husbands as an act of revenge against the Greeks for executing his son. One can wonder what Nauplius actually did. He tried to drown Penelope, so what if an element of threat or coercion was involved?

Now, let's try looking at Agamemnon's side. So, Agamemnon grows up in The House of Atreus, which we all know is especially messed up. He and Menelaus probably witnessed their mom cheat on their dad, their dad kill their mom, and then their father serving his nephews as food to their uncle (yikes), among many things. So Aegisthus becomes king, and the brothers are exiled / taken by a maid out of Mycenae. At one point, they are taken under the wing of King Tyndareus, father of Clytemnestra and Helen (adoptive, but still). Tyndareus helps Agamemnon recover Mycenae, but its unclear whether this happens before or after the marriage. Euripides tells us that Agamemnon actually was about to be killed by The Dioscuri for what he did to Clytemnestra, but Tyndareus spared him after Agamemnon begged him for help. Either Tyndareus wanted to maintain a cordial alliance with Mycenae, and hence was okay with Agamemnon marrying his daughter, even if it was by force.

This establishes that Agamemnon emulates his family's history surprisingly well. But from the House of Atreus, he'd have learnt one thing: power is stability. Do whatever it takes to keep it in your hands. Don't let anything and anyone threaten your power. Now, let's come to Iphigenia, because this is probably Clytemnestra's biggest grievance. Agamemnon didn't sacrifice his daughter willingly. Artemis demanded the sacrifice to get the winds to sail to Troy. Now, Agamemnon wouldn't have sacrificed his daughter if not for the fact that Menelaus and the rest of the army were getting restless. Odysseus warns Agamemnon of a mutiny if they didn't get sailing quick. And this isn't just a few soldiers, no, THESE ARE A THOUSAND SHIPS. A thousand ships of men mutinying against you? And Agamemnon even tells us before the sacrifice that he fears the mutinying army will storm into his palace and harm his family. Sure, this isn't the only reason, but people seem to ignore this. This is really where things start getting messy. Would you rather sacrifice your daughter or lose the rest of your family and your kingdom? Agamemnon wasn't cruel for no reason in this case.

Let's look at a lesser known myth. Telephus, king of Mysia, actually demands the Greeks that they heal his wound after the battle. And he's holding baby Orestes hostage. And how has he caught hold of Agamemnon's newborn son? Clytemnestra advised Telephus to do so. You heard me right. Clytemnestra endangered her own son, and for what? Now Agamemnon is yet again faced with the choice of losing another one of his kids because of his own choices. Just imagine the toll that might've taken on him! Clytemnestra knows this very well, and that's why she uses Orestes as fricking leverage! After Agamemnon's death, Clytemnestra and her lover marry Electra to a poor farmer, making her loose her royal status, and just treat her badly. Electra despises Clytemnestra, and plots matricide. Slowly, the "loving, wronged mother" image cracks a bit.

So yeah, both parents are willing to use their children for political gain. I can only conclude from this that the House of Atreus is messed up, and it shows in Agamemnon and Clytemnestra's spiteful relationship, which both starts and ends in hatred and violence, and hurts many others along the way, especially their children.

Note: I wrote this spontaneously, please correct me if I've gotten some details wrong.

For me its easily Aadi, because summer vacation for me is during Aadi month, so I get to go to India and travel. Rainy season starts in this month. Plus, Aadi thiruvizha is very fun too, with rides and snacks, and Amman naale enakku romba pudikum. Karthigai is also nice, because Karthiga Deepam is my favourite festival and comes in that month.

An ode to one of my favourite subjects, the grand collection of our stories, history 🤎

So there was a movie playing on the TV. Something from the 90s, I guess. One particular scene came up, where another character asks the male main character, "When are you gonna get married?"

The main character, I kid you not, replies, "Married? Really? I could just arrange a maid and get her to complete the chores for me." And my smile dropped. Excuse me?

And the other character (A WOMAN, MIND YOU) doesn't challenge this, she says, "Oh shut up, finding a maid is gonna be so difficult. You're gonna have to try finding a proper, responsible one, and make sure she does all the work properly. Better you get a wife." 😭

This is so wildly problematic. This conversation literally implies that the only reason to get married to a woman is so that she can do the chores and be your housemaid? I can't believe this is an actual movie that hit the big screens and not a random misogynistic Indian TV serial.

(Art Credit: @n.a.n.a.m.i. on Instagram. I love how this specific portrait of Odysseus and Sirenelope makes me smile and feel wildly uncomfortable at the same time. Oh, and The Siren Painter on slide two for his lovely depiction of the sirens on Attic pottery LOL)

So, I have very mixed feelings on the siren episode. I understand why they couldn't spare them, but I never understood why cut off their tails though. I feel like there's some lore we're missing. So I made my own theory about it.

There's nothing about sirens we can find in mythology that'd help us explain this in EPIC, because EPIC sirens are way different. Though The Odyssey doesn't describe sirens to us, later writers and art shows us that sirens are probably bird-women, like they can fly. Plus, Odysseus doesn't try to kill them in The Odyssey.

Apollodorus' Bibliotheca though, tells us that the sirens were exactly three, and they were daughters of a Muse and a river (how a Muse and a river results in bird-women? Do not ask!). What I wanted to focus on though is that the text adds that "Now it was predicted of the Sirens that they should themselves die when a ship should pass them; so die they did."

This is also mentioned in Hygnius' Fabulae, where "It was predicted that they would live only until someone who heard their singing would pass by. Ulysses proved fatal to them, for when by his cleverness he passed by the rocks where they dwelt, they threw themselves into the sea"

So why I'm putting all this together is because the only theory I can draw from these is that sirens can only be killed by doing a specific thing. Now, its not implied that they can't be killed by stabbing them, but this isn't an uncommon theme for monsters in Greek mythology. For example, the hydra has an immortal regenerating head. So Heracles and his companion burn the stump after they cut off the head, and then Heracles buries the head. This is also seen in tale of the Nemean Lion, which Heracles kills by strangling because you can't stab it or anything.

Now let's get back to EPIC's sirens.

First thing is that despite Odysseus' arrow, Sirenelope doesn't die, and is alive for quite a bit (until they actually drown her, that is). No, fine, there's no canon animatic showing us where the siren is hit but I like to think its somewhere in her upper body (since the tail could give away she's Penelope if she's actually swimming).

Second thing is that Odysseus seems to know the sirens quite well, because he knows how to avoid listening to them (with the beeswax) and that they know about every sea route. So when he gives the very specific command of, "Cut off their tails... throw the bodies back in the water, let them drown", its not very far off to think that he actually knows how to kill them. Notice how the "sirens drown to death" motif is still present in mythology.

Sure, Odysseus is all "ruthlessness is mercy" and he wants everyone to suffer or whatever, but I'd reckon that wily Odysseus had an idea in his head during this whole siren episode (I mean, when doesn't he?). If he's got an understanding of the sirens, then I suppose he already knows how to kill them.

Third, and most important thing, I noticed in the canon animatic by Mircy (from the Love In Paradise livestream) that the sirens' gills are on their tails. Understanding that they can breath on both land and water, and have human and fish features, I suppose they breathe on land through their lungs present in the upper body and breathe underwater through the gills present on their tails. So, if you're gonna want to kill a siren, you're gonna have to make sure that it can't breathe, so cutting off its tail and throwing the upper body in the water essentially suffocates them, since they don't have their gills now.

Conclusion: You can't just stab the sirens in EPIC and expect them to die, there's a specific method to kill them, you've gotta cut off their tails (to ensure they can't breathe underwater) and make them drown.

So, I'm Indian Tamil, but I grew up in the UAE. But I've heard from a lot of kids in the Tamil diaspora say they've faced gatekeeping of some sort. Like, "Oh, you're not fluent in Tamil? Then you're not really as Tamil as you should be / as I am." or "You don't know this thing about your culture?" and so on. Even mannerisms and accents can be labelled as "too Western". Don't get me started on people who say, "So do you think of yourself as more Indian or (insert nationality of the country they live in)". Ya allah, I don't even have an Emirati citizenship 😭! This isn't just a Tamil problem, of course, diaspora / third culture kids across the world face this sort of issue.

Personally, I think when you tell someone who identifies as Tamil or any identity that, "You don't fit this box, and hence you're not one of us!", it feels like you're defining your own identity a list you check off. That, in turn, leads to you creating stereotypes about your own people!

We Tamils have a rich international history, and Tamil diaspora has existed since the Imperial Chola times, and this migration continued during the British period, the Sri Lankan Civil War, and even today. And identity doesn't have to be just one, of course. Third culture kids often are faced with playful questions to pick one over the other, like that's even a necessity. Identity of diaspora population has never been simple or straightforward. People can identify with two different cultures or regions at the same time, and that's okay. A lot of us don't realise how sensitive topics like these are, especially when third culture kids grow up with confusion, guilt and feeling like they don't "belong" in either one.

Of course, when you don't live in a place where Tamil population is the majority, you grow up missing a few things related to your culture, but that doesn't make someone any less Tamil. Obviously, a kid who grows up in, say, Kanchipuram for their entire life is gonna have different experiences from another who grows up in Singapore, or Mauritius, or Toronto, or Doha.

Let me make it clear, encouraging Tamil people to learn more about their culture, histpry or language is completely fine. That's called preserving heritage. The problem is when you make it a requirement to respect or love your culture. Whether you want to learn about your heritage and what part of it you want to learn should be an individual choice, because culture is a connection which gives you comfort, not something you impose on others. I should be able to choose how I connect with my Tamil roots. I like to read about Tamil history, but I don't read Tamil literature, and that's completely my choice.

Overall, I think this a topic we really need to discuss and reflect on, especially since its taken very casually. What's your take on it?

We all know how "go wear bangles" is apparently an insult, which is clearly rooted in the misogynistic idea that femininity is inherently weaker or shameful, when both masculinity and femininity are social constructs.

But I was reflecting on something. Here in Tamil Nadu, it is currently the month of Aadi, and this month is dedicated to Amman (goddess often conflated with Durga, Kali, Parvati, Shakti, even Draupadi in some places). Amman is a protector, a destructive force, and a benevolent mother. So during this month, people organise festivals and carnivals in her name. When I was at one of the carnivals, I noticed that one of the main offerings to Amman were none other than bangles.

This isn't limited to just Amman, of course. So many other female deities in India are allowed to be feminine while being powerful. The hands that wield weapons, slay demons, and protect devotees are adorned with colourful, glittery bangles. And yet, we as a society have decided to throw this symbolism and culture under the bus, and turn femininity into an insult.

You thoughts on this?

New to this sub, so wanted to ask.