u/JoyfulJukebox

This week is Jehovas Witness International Convention and I see them absolutely everywhere because the event is held in my city. It made me think of Michael and the psychology behind Jehovas Witness. How much do you lot think JW influenced him and do you think he continued to live by their doctrine even after he officially left them?

Also, can mods please add a flair called "Michael's beliefs" or something.

And when Lisa said no, Debbie Rowe became pregnant before Lisa and Michael had filed their divorce.

I keep seeing this advice everywhere from lipedema "experts" to drink moooore water and never be dehydrated. But the more water I drink the more it pools out into my tissues!! The amount of water I drink I hardly pee out much of it. I feel like it makes my lipedema worse and that it would be better to dehydrate to force my body to use up the fluid that is stored in me.

I have a problem I have been too ashamed to address. After I was SA'd almost 2 decades ago, I have had constant intrusive thoughts of looking at men's crotches. My abuser would force me to give him attention, force me to watch him unzip before... After the abuse I have become hypervigilant and I get anxious when a man sits opposite and rests his hands on his lap. They notice I become uncomfortable and lose my train of thought and stop talking mid conversation. It's got so bad that I blush and turn red when a man just rests their hand under a table during a business meeting. It's destroying new friendships, job opportunities and meeting people because I can't stay focused and be normal. I had a male therapist who I could only see two sessions because when he would rest his pen and notepad on his lap I would freak out, blush and look away. It's very confusing to the other person and I don't feel like telling them that I act this way because I was SA'd.

Please tell me how I can treat this. I am at the end of my rope. I don't know what clinic to reach out to. Trauma therapy has been exhausted because I have received it in the past and no longer fit the criteria for ptsd but the problem persists and is ruining my life.

What can treat this effectively? Meds? Therapy? Thought exercises?

I have had multiple traumas through out my life. Sexual traumas from childhood. Sexual traumas from adulthood. But one trauma in particular has changed me and if I don't find a solution soon I can't continue living because it ruins all my relationship, aquaintances, meetings ect.

I have asked for help and therapy but been denied because the system says I have received too much therapy already. I've done therapy for CPTSD and dissociation.

But here is what my embarrassing trauma related problem is.

My abuser would molest me whilst sleeping. And when waking up and getting ready each morning he would strip naked and sit and watch me from across the room, playing with *it*. He would force my eyes and attention on his parts and basically not let me go about my day until I had acknowledged and given him the attention.

This damaged me so much, that after I left him I developed some type of OCD where my eyes would wander down a mans crotch. When I sit at business meetings and a male co-worker sits in front of me, if they innocently place their hands on their lap under the table, my eyes wander there and I start blushing because it looks like they're about to unzip their pants like my abuser would do. Even though they of course aren't doing so. But my mind anticipates it. I feel panic and they notice. It's gotten so bad that even when I see a man place their hands on their belly or their lap, I see it from the corner of my eye and I turn bright red and lose my train of thought.

They notice this. And they correct themselves by changing position. Im the one that ends up making them feel uncomfortable and as a female I feel like a perv. I saw a male therapist and had to cancel on him and quit going because everytime he rested his hand on his lap or moved his legs, my sick brain saw it as a invite.

Please give me strategies how to stop this behavior. It's connected to the trauma my abuser put me through after he conditioned me to give him attention this way. I ruin business meetings. I ruin friendships. I am socially awkward. Im embarrassed. I can't get the therapy I need. So please don't suggest "seek therapy" because I am not going to receive it and can't afford private care. I need all the mental self-help that is available or if you have tips on how to deprogramme my damaged mind. People are picking this up and Im so ashamed I could kms.

Someone hugged me very tightly skin-to-skin and I have folliculitis/tinea versicolor on my neck. Will this infect the person?? Im so worried and I feel ashamed.

Let's entertain the idea that you could have asked him anything, on live TV, and deviate from any agreement without repricussions, what 3 questions would you ask Michael about his behavior or allegations made about him? What would you ask that reporters never asked him?

Give me your best!

I would ask these and watched for his reaction:

1. Do you find young boys attractive?
2. Have you ever been in love with a boy?
3. What legal punishment is proportional for an adult man who touches boys sexually, according to you?

Bonus question:

4. You often talk about not having a childhood and suffering from living a life in the spotlight as a young teen. Why then have you countless times exploited other peoples children by bringing them on tours and gala events and photo sessions? Aren't you technically subjecting them to the very life that you claim damaged you?

Maybe you lurk here to use material to post on your pro-MJ sub to argue why Michael was innocent. Maybe you are on the fence. Maybe you are 50/50. Maybe you are reading this because you feel personally targetted and even the word "defender" upsets you because you feel it's a term that divides us into guilters vs defenders.

This isn't about these terms. Or tabloid headlines. Or about being a "hater" or "hating defenders".

To you defender, I want to say that I too was a defender up until a week ago. Trust me I have done my research. I've been a megafan since the early 90's. I followed the trial in real time everyday. I have a big MJ collection and I even taped his funeral on a burned DVD when it was broadcasted live on TV. Michael has been an integral part of my childhood, teens, adult and now middle age life.

I woke up a week ago and no, it wasn't because of the "60 miNutES inTeRviEw oF tHe CaScio'S lyinG" narrative that's going around. I didn't wake up even after watching Leaving Neverland the first time many years ago. I was going to defend Michael to my grave. Up until a week ago.

I watched the Michael movie at the theatre. I wanted to support Michael, his legacy, the estate and his reputation.

I wouldn't have done all that if I was "a hater" and "a guilter". I am not uninformed. I have followed Michael through the lense of "innocence" for 30 years and there probably isn't a single interview, Jackson family statement, court document, counter "evidence" or timeline I haven't already seen. Yes I have seen the countless rebuttals by Taj and Brandi Jackson. I will not take away their interpritation of what happened or didn't happen. Their stories seem to make sense through the lense of innocence. But Michael's own disturbing behavior overshadowed all those rebuttals painting him in a positive light.

Because I woke up a week ago revisiting Michael himself. I revisited his own words, his own timeline, his own letters and fax messages, his own possessions, his own interviews, his own statements, his own patterns. And I realised what he was doing was actually really really wrong. In spite of the positive spin Taj, Brandi and other family members have put Michael in. It still doesn't help.

I too, was under the illusion, that "sleeping with kids is okay and that it's a beautiful thing". He had a way to convince us all that he was not doing anything wrong.

That's what a guilty person would say to elicit approval from others and justifying their actions.

I know Michael had a "good side" to him too. Yes he did donate to charity. Yes he did, you don't have to remind me. I know. But keep in mind, if a guilty person was ever to convince a whole world that they were kind and giving and only had good intentions, donating to charity is the best way to win the heart of the public. This trick is very common among royalty and the royal family. Jimmy Savile, a "sir", was famous for being around children, hosting children's TV shows, volunteering in children's hospitals, donating and funding childrens hospitals. Two things can be true at the same time. People who do bad things to children can on the outside look like the most charitable, angelic people. You may say "But Jimmy was a monster, Michael wasn't." But that's what everyone thought of Jimmy when he was alive. Everyone adored him. They were under his spell and were amazed by his eccentric lifestyle, his eccentric appearence, his unique way to conduct himself. He too was very open about his intimacy with young people and would publicly caress them and make them sit on his lap. But only Jimmy, not Michael right? Jimmy bad. Michael still good. Because Michael always good.

I know I still haven't convinced you. But maybe you clicked on this because there is a nagging feeling at the pit of your stomach. Maybe you feel offended by my post. Maybe my post even enrages you. That's fine. I was in your shoes a week ago. A week ago I was lurking here feeling personally hurt and offended by peoples posts here.

I devoted my life for Michael. I was never a "guilter". I believed and digested every word Michael said.

But I say this to you, for once in your life, if you have defended him your entire life like I have, do yourself the service of looking at his case through a different lense this time. You don't have to believe everything is true. But you may discover some actually is. Try to view it from another perspective than the one you have up until now. I know you don't want to go there, but it's very sobering once you allow yourself to do it.

Please! I've gone through so many brands and ran the ingredient list through fungal acne ingredient calculators and every single brans has fatty alcohols or some other emollient that triggers fungal acne. Can someone please name a brand with Retinol that is truly safe and won't make fungal acne worse?

I watched the Michael movie 6 weeks ago as a long time defender and fan. I actually enjoyed it and I even cried to it. I got tingles from all my favorite songs. I got to be a kid again and experience that same magic I had when I first discovered Michael on MTV in the early 90s.

But as with the rest of the world I went on a Michael Jackson marathon. For 5 weeks in a row I was remeniscing about him, watching clips of him, talking about him. I watched the Cascios and thought they were just money grabbers.

But...

One thing lead to another and I fell deep down the rabbit hole. No one needed to convince me or shove it in my face. Everything in life is about divine timing and this time the timing struck me hard.

Now I wake up everyday feeling anger and betrayal. There are no more excuses. And no it's not okay to justify slumber parties with other peoples kids. No it's not okay to justify parading underaged school kids on world tours. No it's not innocent fun to make distant phone calls to underaged kids and talk to them for hours and show them horror films and bribe their families with luxury gifts. No it's not "healing" to caress kids without asking for their consent, even then it's not okay because they spoke a different language in other countries and they were too young or unwell to understand consent when he wanted them to sit on his lap or kiss them on the cheek. No, violating childrens boundaries and teaching them it's okay to have slumber parties in bed with grown men is not okay because it erases their defences against other predators. No, it's not okay to spoil other people's children and give them gifts and stuff that their parents could not afford. That's teaching them that their parents are lacking and that they failed their parental duty to provide for the child's basic needs. And making the child choose between the company of a superstar who provides monetary transactions and material means instead of spending time bonding with their innate family. Stop defending this behavior by calling it "generosity". To every person who says "he gave so much money to charity" that's often what super rich predators literally do to compensate and conceal their crimes and you and me fell for it.

The Michael movie gave me closure. I got to have my final magical MJ moment before never looking back. It was nice, it was dreamy. I enjoyed it. But now it's time to move on. Never defending him again.

It comes with a great deal of sadness and grief too. Because to me Michael was the last person in this world I thought was righteous, pure, good and right. Now I understand that such fantastical human being doesn't exist.

Edit to say to the user: u/AgentHibachi00 claiming Im lying because my "account is locked", I've been a member of Reddit for over 2 years and my account username is literally a Jackson 5 song and I've made several threads on this sub this past week in the same sentiment as Im doing now. You can find my other threads here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/1twxbx3/two_things_can_be_true_at_the_same_time/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/1txbla9/i_was_doing_something_out_of_innocence/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/1tyxgh0/for_16_years_why_did_not_a_single_reporter_ask/

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/1tzbeoj/deflecting_himself_in_third_person/

Now ask me again u/AgentHibachi00 if Im still a liar.

Notice how he always spoke about himself in third person when being pressed about the allegations. It's a way to disassociate himself from the individual doing it.

"Here's a guy tryna help a child"

"If you're a pedophile, if you're Jack The Ripper, then no. That's not Michael Jackson."

"Michael, your sister LaToya came out publicly saying she saw you spend days with underaged boys in your room. Was she right or do you deny these claims?"

"Michael, now that you are on speaking terms with your sister LaToya, what do you make of the accusations she made years ago and why do you think she recanted?"

"Michael, LaToya wrote a book detailing accusations against you, how would you address her claims? If you could say anything to her right now, what would you say to her?

I saved the photo today from some thread and now I can no longer find the thread. He was wearing sunglasses on a plane and in his lap was Alvin Malniks daughter.

After almost unaliving his newly adopted child by dangling him to fans below. Then what else has he done out of innocence that he thought was OK but to the rest of the world is classified insane and criminal?

I have been a mega fan for 30 years marking this year. I have all the albums, books and memorabilia. My life has always for as long as I can remember, been centered around his music, his concerts, headlines. I followed him like I would someone I knew in real life. After his death I stopped paying attention to any headlines. I completely missed the Leaving Neverland on HBO. I honestly can't remember whether I boycotted it, or life was just busy and I didn't care to look up anything MJ good or bad.

After the movie came out couple of weeks ago my fandom was totally rekindled. I watched the movie and the memories of Michael came surging back. I was once again star struck and reminded of why I became a fan. The music. His talents. And his fascinating rise to stardom.

Last month I did what many fans do. I avoided any negative headlines. I joined this sub and lurked and thought you guys must be mad. But my curiosity is what made me stay. Now all of the sudden I wanted to hear both sides.

I posted in the defender sub in favor of Michael, asking very basic questions regarding the allegations and was immediately called a "guilter" which to me was inappropriate and very accusatory. I no longer want to consider myself a mega fan nor do I want to be labelled a guilter.

Two things can be true at the same time. Im interested in following leads that will help me search for truth. That means engaging in both camps. Without insults or accusations. Both sides are labelled as "cults". This sub has been labelled a cult and this sub labels the defender sub "cult".

I guess Im somewhere in the middle on the fence watching both sides debate. Im not here to debate. Im just here to share my story. English is not my first language so I ask you all kindly to not question the way I phrase my opinions. I want to write from my heart and not use Chat gpt to get my point across.

To me, the overwhelming *evidence* is not the accusers testimonies or pieces of exhibits found in MJ's property. It's his own micro facial expressions and behavior displayed in various interviews where he is confronted by the reporters that give it away, at least for me.

I always deflected his silliness as infantile and just being childish. But given how incredibly damning the accusations were it's inconceivable to me how he was laughing it off and joking around on the Lisa Marie interview back in the 90's. You could argue he was nervous. But with the seriousness of the subject matter, he should not have played during the interview and doing spontaneous singing and teasing Lisa Marie. It left poor taste and with such accusations, if it was me, I would only display anger and upset. There is a time and space for everything but playing around wasn't it.

The main argument the general public has is "He would never hurt anyone, he donated millions to charity and children's hospitals". I recognise today that so did Jimmy Savile. Jimmy even volunteered as a porter to get access to vulnerable defenceless children. He donated so much money too and was a devout Catholic.

I also react very differently today to the footage of the boys on tour with Michael. Even if nothing damning happened it was very inappropriate and also incomprehensible why Michael, who lived and suffered a life in the spotlight, would subject young children to the same treatment by being chased by paparazzi's and fans. That's very confusing and stressful to young children and especially children who were not brought up in the entertainment business. You could argue and say Wade and James grew up in the business but not to the same level Michael was. If Michael felt his childhood was so traumatic from being followed by cameras, he should not have exposed children like Wade, James, Jordan, Brett, Omar, Dominic to the same circus.

It's strange or maybe not strange, how he would treat his children so differently. Keeping them out of the paparazzi's sight but expose other kids to that. Two things can be true at the same time. He wanted his children to have a "normal life" whilst he wanted other children to experience the totally "abnormal life" of fame.

Do I still listen to his music? Yes I do. Two things can be true at the same time. Im still very much attached to the old songs that give me sentimental value. Do I recognise the bad things or highly inappropriate things he has done? Yes I do.

Do I lurk both subs? Yes I do.

Im 50/50. I recognise both things can be true at the same time. Fans say the boys could not have been manipulated or abused because he was a great father. Again, two things can be true at the same time. I 100% believe he was an engaging father who poured a lot of love and resources into giving his children a good childhood. I also think he hurt children who were not his own.

I recognise today that he had a side to him I do not like, his (sadly) narcissism and need for constant recognition. The way he called women "fish" which is new to me as it's the first time this week I have come across such footage. I think he used the boys as props for his own promotion. They became an accessory for him to elevate himself. He wanted to be surrounded by youth. And those boys were too young to understand his motives. Everyone wanted to be those boys who got to enter his world and follow him around. It's great PR.

I hear people say everyday "Macaulay Culkin said nothing ever happened". Why would he say anyhing? I don't think Macaulay wants to be remembered as the molested boy for the rest of his life and I respect his decision to not say anything if something did actually happen.

Anyway. These were my thoughts. Please don't attack me for not including such and such and for not going more into detail what my opinion is on all the testimonies. It's overwhelming enough as it is. Im still coming to terms of the possibility "what if it is so...."

Häromdagen på Medborgarplatsen promenerade jag längs trottoaren och flyttade mig åt sidan för att släppa förbi en äldre tant. Istället för ett tack så tar hon ett steg åt sidan och stannar. Jag flyttar mig ett steg till åt vänster och hon gör likadant genom att spegla mig. Jag stannar upp och tittar på henne och hon säger *"KEEP ON WALKING"* på svengelska. Hur skulle jag göra det när hon medvetet *vill* att jag skulle gå in i henne så att hon har nåt att klaga på? Är dagligen också med om äldre gubbar som stannar 2 meter framför en och väntar på att man ska "uppmärksamma" deras existens så att de kan stirra en rakt i ögonen för att sedan kunna gå vidare med deras dag. Vad är detta dominansbeteende?