r/Manipulation

The turndown in question, that "I/they don't owe you anything" is used in situations where someone made an expectation of someone else, but then is stumped by the difference between their own priorities and the (realistic) priorities of that who is turning them down.

I mean, looking at this at surface-level, it is brutally honest that they weren't somehow indebted to you because of a picture you formed about them in your mind. You weren't entitled to receiving their mile because they gave you an inch, and for reference; you weren't entitled to receiving that promotion because your manager had faith in you while mentoring you.

But it is still unfair. I feel like it shifts that burden of hindsight on you. You should have known better. You should have strategized yourself to invest your energy in people who would finally appreciate you. And it is especially worse if you know, and they know, that they were stringing you along just to deny you this opportunity (for some sadistic pleasure, it often seems).

At the same time, you are not entitled to everyone operating within your locus of expectations. People are not robots; they may have been drawn to something different that you were not privy to until this disappointing moment. So you can't really blame them for not noticing that like a beacon, you burnt yourself out to shine brightest.

Even "moving on" is something other people who can't share in the intensity of your disappointment always say in passing. Often to minimize the emotional effort they put into processing with you what has just transpired. It may be well-intentioned, it may be a further handwave; but it doesn't provide a satisfactory outlook... not especially if it is a lifeline that has been cut and you can't clutch onto anything else.

Perhaps this (being dissatisfied with this particular outlook because of the apparent lack of access to other lifelines) is a hyperbolic stance though, because realistically speaking, opportunities to heal and move on are somewhat there. We can at least anticipate that... But what do you cling onto in the known present, how do you know when to next cling onto; when you have just been thrust into the mud, and your vision has as such been murkied in that moment?

All things considered, perhaps this is why this imagery of the proverbial drowning man seems to bring everything together so neatly. If I were to tie all these motifs: this now-smouldering beacon… the now-rudderless lifeline… the now-groping clutching and clinging… the now gritty, itching mud…; all these, into one coherent visual narrative, I would picture this man, adrift, holding onto that straw of a lifeline, while trying to look for that undrenched beacon that will guide him ashore. He is stranded across a stretch of sea frequented by freight traffic, so it is a reasonable assurance of him getting safety; but at the moment he just doesn’t know where to go.

So not so long ago, I had a not so great argument with my now ex that makes me feel completely used and lied to. Finding out they had been talking to someone new for several months without my knowledge and me only finding out from a screenshot sent with their name at the bottom of it. Not only that, I had co-signed on a big time purchase beforehand for them a couple of months before finding out this information. Now I’m stuck on this purchase with them until it’s either paid off or refinanced. This has made me feel used, and manipulated, because if I had that knowledge before, I would’ve never allowed that purchase to happen. Am I right in feeling this way?

I just wanna know why when someone gives you the silent treatment, that when they need something that they decide to talk and then just go back to giving you the silent treatment. Like could have written a note instead of breaking the silent treatment and then starting it back up

Im 20M and this girl is also 20F

we're in our 1st year of college (1st semester) and then there is this girl who kind of mocks me for my height...

The semester has started for 1 month.

All this started when I joined the college group on WhatsApp, everyone was having fun... And after a few days there... I was getting comfortable and i made a joke about her surname(didn't know her personally, never met) ... And she just rammed me with her mocking skills... Every time I came online she just started mocking me. Today a mutual friend introduced me to her... And I was genuinely scared of her... I asked her what's the problem you have with me... And she said "you're short"... ( I am the shortest in the group)

And one of my classmates said a girl hates you when they love you

Is this correct or just he's insane making me insane ?

tldr- I made fun of her surname, she made fun of me... My friend said she likes me, women intentionally hate when they like you.

Is this correct or he's insane making me insane ?

Reposting a shorter version because I realise I wrote way too much in my last post:-

We had plans for the weekend, but things escalated after he became angry about how long I was in the bathroom. He interrogated me about what I was doing, called me names including “dumb bitch,” “spastic,” “stupid idiot” and “dumb slut,” and followed me/kept moving toward me while I was backing away because I felt unsafe. Other people noticed what was happening, and one woman even filmed part of it after hearing me say I didn’t feel safe.
Later that night, after we went home, I was asleep and naked in bed. He repeatedly pulled the blankets off me despite me trying to cover myself and telling him not to touch me. He physically grabbed/turned my face toward him and asked me in a calm, frightening way, “Are you scared of me? Am I the boogeyman?” He then deliberately went around the room ripping up every photo of us, including photos we’d taken that same night, and threw the pieces at me.
I was genuinely terrified. When he tried to grab me again after I repeatedly told him not to touch me, I punched him once in the stomach. It wasn’t hard, but I take responsibility for doing it and know it wasn’t okay.
The next morning he alternated between being angry and apologising, said he didn’t want to lose me, and suddenly wanted us to get married. Later, when I tried to talk about what happened and suggested anger management, he sang loudly over me rather than discussing it.
I’m now having flashbacks to him grabbing my face, following me, threatening/intimidating me and destroying the photos. My doctor also told me I should get out of the relationship.
Am I right to see this as more than “just a fight”? How would you describe what happened?

hello everyone im new here but I just got out of an extremely toxic and jelous relationship where my ex would belittle me and even manipulate me to believe her little sister who's a minor and her mom would bend over purposely for me to look which I never really seen cause im not a complete weirdo and she even convinced me that her again minor sister would wear leggings and gym things to further make me look shes done alot more things like saying I cant look at women or be any polite to them she said once that I looked left and seen a woman and turned back fast which I would think is a good thing nope she got upset and said I shouldn't see any women she also would say when I interacted with my cats that I should just makeout with them or that I do and that also that when her mom or sister would talk to me that they should just jerk me off already since they want my attention so bad but let me get to the point I had to vent a little I still live with them cause her mom took me in and is showing me care I never received before shes a very kind and genuine person which I didnt know until I got out of the relationship but my ex will do little things like removing one battery from the remote or I came back home and my pillow was wet just weird things like that can anyone tell me why she also started interacting with my cat more and being nice to him mind you she would hit him and things before if he got near her she also said today cheeto isn't anyone's cat its like he likes everyone my cats a orange cat btw notorious for being kind and interactive which I dont give her any happiness or react to it I know hes my cat and when eventually I move out ill be taking him and I dont react over rhe battery thing she stole rhe remote for a few days cause I was watching malcom in the middle and she called me a horny person who jerks off to it cayse I was watching the show🫩 but this is the second time she removed the battery and only one so idk whats her deal please someone give me some pointers I live in Cali and its hard to rent out here so thats off the table for a while and im jobless at 19 who flew from Mississippi to live and escape my family here

I happened to lose my job a few months ago and I happened to find myself in a very low point with my mental health (I was incredibly depressed). This unfortunately led to me confiding in someone who subsequently took advantage of my distraught state and manipulated me badly. I do not want to go into details, as it's too painful. It's also the lesson, rather than the details that are key here.

If you find yourself in a vulnerable situation or phase in life, be very vigilant of yourself and the people in your life. Be cautious with whom you share personal details with.

Since I was at such a low point, I was an easy target for the individual who manipulated me. They knew what I was going through and that is how they were able to get to me. A part of me is embarrassed with myself. If I was in a better mental state, I would have been thinking more clearly and not fallen for their tactics. A huge part of what allowed their tactics to work was that they offered me emotional support and earned my trust that way.

Unfortunately, manipulators (especially the more ruthless kind) will view someone in a vulnerable state as a potential target. It sucks because it's bad enough dealing with what you are currently going through, but then on top of that you have to potentially field off individuals with nefarious intentions. As bad as it sounds, if you find yourself in a vulnerable place in life, do not share this with anyone other than trusted friends and family.

There is a quote from The Art of War that I think is fitting for this:

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”

At some point, I did come to my senses and set some boundaries with that manipulative individual, as well as go no contact.

I don't want to encourage people to be paranoid. But if you find yourself in a vulnerable situation, bear in mind there are shitty people who might exploit you in that position.

Met this guy it was purely friendly from my side in the very beginning he was super cool we could talk on whatever topic for hours etc. it turned out he has a baby with his gf who lives abroad we continued talking meeting but then things started changing . I shared with him I’ve never had sex because of religious reasons although I’m
Almost 30 and even before this he was sharing exclusivity of a woman is super important for him. Then we had moments of kisses , him touching me etc in the cinema and in the car, calling texting and at some point i told him that I can’t do this with someone who’s in a relationship. I ended it completely over the phone. In the meantime I’ve told him I met other guy who is super interested in me, inviting me to so many places etc. so when I ended things he contacted me again after a month and we had a chat and then offered to meet up I agreed but we couldn’t meet the next day as planned and he was travelling to another city so we had to postpone it.
A week later I texted him about sth else and told him I’m going on a trip this weekend and when he saw the place where I’m going he immediately asked me if I’m going with this guy and I said yes, that the chemistry is not like with him but he’s been inviting me for so long time and I can try. So things went in he came back to our city and called me to meet up as we have arranged. We met while even before meeting he was promising he won’t touch me try to kiss me or whatever. Things didn’t go this way, he was super nervous, happy , excited but when we went to this cafe he hold my hand then out his hand in my leg , then hugged me while talking, then kisses, then it was already super late to go anywhere and suggested to go to watch movie at his place .
I swear I agreed only because I wanted to see where he lives . But when we went there of course hugs kisses , he did t try to undress me but opened my legs and started simulating like having sex moves, then he stated touching me between my legs I finished 3-3 times then he said he wanna finish and started masturbating n was trying to out my hand there but I was removing it only then he put it on his leg like trying to show me how to strike his leg, he also then rubbed his private parts to my back side he was saying this felt like 95% sex , then we continued talking about us which we have started from the cafe like him telling me that he feels weird, that he thinks he’s starting to develop feelings. That he couldn’t stop thinking about me during this 1 month no contact , but at the same time thinks it will feel not serious and selfish to leave this woman and 10 months old baby but all he wants is to be with me . Then he was saying u had to give me reassurance that if I’ll do this step you will be there. How can you like me so much and tell me this other guy has invited you and you will go with him etc. and I told him : you are telling me this while you are with this woman. We kissed in front of my place while in the car and in the next day he went radio silent, no follow up even hi , did you sleep well, good morning or whatever. Around 6 pm I sent him a text which says :
“I just wanted to tell you that, after thinking things over yesterday, I feel that things crossed boundaries that should never have been crossed in this situation, and I kept telling you that.
I’ve gone out with other men before—dates, flirting, etc.—but I’ve never allowed that kind of intimacy, and no one has ever assumed that when I was pushing something away, it was just some kind of “love game.” Those were real boundaries, and it was too much, at least for me in this kind of relationship. For other people, I’m sure it might be completely normal.
Situations like this simply aren’t for me and never will be, and neither are relationships like this. So I’d prefer that we don’t continue from here and that we have no further communication. I just wanted you to know, and I wanted to be direct with you rather than leave things hanging or anything like that. :)

I sent this text to him around 6 pm as I saw he’s not initiating anything to me, he hasn’t done anything even after the text which is fine .

But my question is : why after such an emotional l, intimate date he didn’t follow up out of basic humanity even, like hey good morning are you okay , a light joke or sth. Just the normal things. Instead he just went radio silence . Is it because he thought I’m super ultra exclusive which is important for him but when we went further he changed the way he sees me , is it like a mind game or what?? Please help me I’d appreciate every input . Just to clarify he’s been chasing me like crazy for 4 months .
Why would u go to zero contact not doing even the basic human kindness and respect even if you do t want to continue it ?

TLDR: was intense for 4 months chased like crazy after basic intimacy didn’t follow up even with a simple how are you. Why would they ???

I'm almost positive my girlfriend is doing crazy things on purpose just to get a reaction out of me, but I want to make sure I'm not being paranoid or letting anxiety create a false narrative. I've noticed her, several times, doing or saying things that would make anyone upset. "I always thought about my ex when we first started dating" or "This guy at work who likes me waved at me today" or "Look at this Teddy Bear my other boyfriend bought for me."

These seem minor, I know, which is why I just assumed they were harmless jokes, but there were other times she seemed to joke about other men to make me jealous on purpose. And one time, she even admitted that she likes to make me angry, which I thought was really weird.

We broke up once because I caught her receiving money from another man and lying to me about it. It was a day after her birthday, and she texted me, "Thank you for sending me money." The problem was, I hadn't sent her any money. I told her that and then asked who sent her money to which she responded, "I was just joking because I thought if I said that, you'd send it. Now you'll get mad and make and big deal out of this and cause a fight. Please don't."

I knew she was lying, I just couldn't prove it yet. The way she received money from me was on a crypto app. I would send her the crypto, and she would cash it out immediately to her bank account. My plan was to, when I saw her in person, ask to her app. She was a step ahead of me, because that same day she tells me that she deleted the app. When I asked her why, she said she didn't want me to think she only cared about money, so she wouldn't accept any from me anymore. This is when I knew she 100% got money from another man and was lying to me about it. I told her she was a liar and cheater, and I broke up with her.

About a week later, she messages me on Instagram saying I was good to her and never mistreated her. We slowly started talking again. We decided we would meet on Friday to talk things about, but when Friday came, she said she was too tired from work and wanted to just rest at home. Then, around 9pm, she asks me what I'm doing and says that she's going to the bar with her sister and her sister's friend, and she wanted me to join them. Now, of course I was confused and upset because you would think that making up with me would be more important. And she was too tired and canceled our meeting, but now she's ready to go out. She got mad at me, but then ended up texting me an hour later telling me to come meet them at the bar. I didn't go. It's not what we agreed to.

The next day, she comes over and we talk, and get back together. She keeps talking about some bartender who liked her and was smirking and acting weird and clearly trying to make me jealous. I didn't take the bait. We had sex. Afterward, I looked her in the eye and told her I didn't believe her excuse about the money or why she deleted her app. I kept looking her in the eyes, told her to tell me the truth, and asked to see her bank account for that day she texted me about the money. I knew if she received money that day, I would see it there. She said okay at first, confidently, and I started to think I was wrong and she hadn't done it after all. Then she started looking around nervously, and I said "You got money from someone else, didn't you?" She said yes. I asked her who it was, and she said her friend named Sayeed. She showed me the guy's Instagram profile, and it definitely doesn't look like her type. Guy honestly looked gay, but still, I felt betrayed.

She claimed her Sayeed were not romantic, he was just a friend, and she was helping him send money to his bank account. You see, the guys lives in the middle east, in a country they don't have bank accounts, and he would send her money with crypto, she would cash it out, and send it to his bank account in another country. But on after her birthday, he sent her money as a gift.

Days later, when I discovered she didn't delete her crypto app after all, I made her show me the app. I saw dozens and dozens of transactions from this guy. She also showed from her bank where she was, indeed, sending the money to his bank account in another country. So I know part of that is true. I asked her how much did he actually send her as a gift. Not helping him with the money for his account, but how much was actually a gift from him to her besides the birthday money ($80), and she froze up and eventually told me to add up all the money recieved on her crypto and minus it from the amounts showing that she sent from her bank to another. My thought was, I'm asking you, why do I need to do math? She assured me, "Don't worry, he will never send me money again."

About a week later, she texts me, "I need to tell you something, but don't be mad at me. It's not my fault." She tells me that Sayeed sent her money again to send to his bank account. She showed me the text. I was confused as to why she hadn't told him she couldn't do this anymore, especially after we broke up because of it. So I made her text him back and say not to contact her anymore, and she showed me her doing this.

Safe to say this Sayeed guy has been a real sore spot in our relationship. Some days, I couldn't stop thinking about the betrayal and I would ask her more questions about it, at which point she was always extremely angry and impatient. Anyway, today, months later, she sends me a reel on TikTok where two women are talking about what women should do when they have a dream that their boyfriend has hooked up with one of their friends. She messaged me "This happened to me last night"

Now, based on the video, I thought she was saying she had a dream I hooked up with one of her friends. Then she tells me, "No, I slept with someone in my dream." I asked her who, and she says Sayeed.

Now, what are the chances she honestly didn't know that was something she should've probably kept to herself? She had to know how this would affect me, given the history. I really, really think she's doing this to mess with me, although I don't know how or why someone would be this cruel lol.

What do you guys think, honestly?

I (18F) recently broke up with my ex boyfriend (18M) about three months ago. Towards the end of the relationship, we both struggled with mental health, him in particular, with recurring symptoms of depression and anxiety being constant for him. I tried to support him the best I can, but eventually we argued and made up less then we had regular conversations. It was quite toxic, so i eventually decided to leave. The breakup went seemingly very maturely and well, and though at this point from what I can reflect on, the only bit of manipulation he took part in is gaslighting (rewriting the histories of our communication and past arguments) and the silent treatment (which I eventually mirrored to gain a sense of autonomy unfortunately. I know this is wrong and I had a part in our toxic patterns too). We agreed to maybe start talking again but now we both needed space. Then we talked here and there, eventually we somehow met up for one last bit of closure, I think a week or so after the breakup. It was nice, we hugged and kissed and discussed things to do with the breakup. I thought that was it and we would enjoy our own space and talk again in a couple months. Boy was I wrong. It started off with him reaching out because it really took a toll on his mental health, and even though this crossed my already expressed need for space, I let it slide because someone I love was in pain, how could I not be there for him? And this happened again and again, although there would be 4-8 days where he would stop texting, he’d always come back. Anger and frustration grew within me as he kept reaching out, he knew my own mental health was only slowly recovering? How could he take so much from me mentally? I grew more weary by the day. It consumed everything I did , everyone I spoke to. I became someone else, I still feel that way until now. Eventually he suggested we block eachother, after another bit of reaching out and talking to me again, so he wouldn’t be tempted to text and I wouldn’t either.

I should mention during these really dark times for him, I did try my absolute hardest to get him professional help. During this time I:
- offered to accompany him to a gp for a referral for a therapist
- try to get him to call a hotline for mental health breakdowns
- offered to hang out with him (he felt extremely lonely )
- reached out to a friend of his after he wrote me a goodbye paragraph that he once claimed it was just because we were not meant to be talking. He later revealed it was the other goodbye, the terrifying life altering goodbye. I said to his friend, that I received an extremely worrying text from my ex, and that I think it would be good for such friend to check up on ex, or take him for a drive. When my ex found out I had reached out to his friend he said ‘Dont tell people what i am going through or feeling ever again’ even though I then explained that I only said to his friend that he basically just needed a friend, and no private information, he said it was the fact I said anything at all that made him lose all trust in me. Then said he doesn’t even know if he wants to talk to me in the future. A week later he reached out.

The point of all of this is that, it has now been around 2 ish months since I last messaged him, though he has communicated via letter I didn’t say anything back , other than a thankyou through a mutual friend who told me about the letter (found in a box of HIS things I gave him during the relationship. Yes he returned it) and also lip reading during a class we share. I don’t know how to stop talking about everything that’s happened. I really really want to move on. I want to be happy again. And I know that he still likes me and wants to talk to me in the future, a mutual friend told me (different friend). But I don’t want anything to do with him. How to move on? What is the brutal and honest advice I need to take? Is

When i was a teenager there was this guy. Everyone told me to stay away from him. He's bad news. ALL of his friends and family told me he was a horrible piece of shit who would never go anywhere in life. Stay away from him they told me. All he's going to do is cause trouble. He's no good. Being the kind of person that I am, I chose to not see any of it. I was determined to prove them wrong. Hes not a bad guy. 

I know it. I mean, sure, I had a bit of police interaction and got into a bit of trouble but it wasnt his fault. I stopped going to school. Hard to go with a massive hangover every morning. Not because of him though. I mean, sure, I was with him. That was my choice. He introduced me to drugs I had never even heard of and I loved them. To say that that possibly changed the entire course of my life is an understatement. Once again, my own choice. He left. Can't remember why or where. They're wrong about him though. He's not a bad guy.

Misunderstood maybe. A few years pass, and he pops back into my life. Once again, his "besty"s tell me to stay away from him. He's trouble. But I know better. Then he robs me. I get shit faced and kick my own door in. One of his bestys comes and helps me clean up my mess and tells me that he hopes I learned my lesson. But he doesn't know him like I do. He's going to make things right so he picks me up and promises he's gonna pay me back. I just gotta come with him and let him make it up to me. That ends with a 27 month sentence. Not his fault though. Totally my own. He's not a bad guy. 

He helps out my family. Next thing I know, the family member I was closest to becomes someone I no longer recognize. He was once someone I thought would always protect me. He changes  Does things out of character. Things that hurt me. He's no longer in my life. Still not his fault. I know that none of this is because of him. We all make our own choices. He's not a bad guy. 

Years go by. He starts calling again. Starts telling me how much he misses me and how I've been on his mind. He loves the person I've become and would never do me wrong. Then I end up trusting him again. He takes me for $600. I let him do it. I mean, who can blame him really? He's locked up and really doesn't have any other options. Not like he put a gun to my head. I was the one who chose to trust him even I knew better. He's really not a bad guy.

But I do choose to tell him to leave me alone finally. I beg him to leave me alone and stop answering his phone calls completely. Once again, life goes on for a few more years. Then, like clock work, he's back. Getting out and hasnt been able to stop thinking about me. Sends me $25 of the 600 he swindled me for as a show of good faith and a heartfelt apology. I cave. He spends the next 6 months proving to me that he's not a bad guy. 

I'm so hell bent on proving to everyone that I wasn't wrong when I was a teenager, that I fall for every bit of the manipulation. For the most part at least. Right away he asks me to come sign on a loan for him. $5000 for school. The paperwork I get says $25000 for 4 years of school. But that was an accident and he doesn't know why it says that. So he sends me new loan papers that say 5000. I fill them out. Just not with correct info of course... Not that I thought he'd screw me over. He's not a bad guy. 

I say yes when he asks me to marry him. I also tell one of my best friends who happens to be my ex that Im gonna need him to be on stand by to object if it ever makes it to the altar... Still has only ever paid me back 25 of the 600 btw ... He sells me a dream where I finally get to prove to everyone I wasn't wrong because we're gonna get married and live happily ever after because he's not a bad guy. 

Breaks up with me in a text message the day before Christmas. Maybe I deserved it for doubting him. Maybe I manifested the outcome due to my inability to fully trust him. Or maybe, just maybe, every single person who has warned me - his closest friends, his childhood friends, his brothers, even his dang mom, MANY police officers and probation officers, lawyers, and guards at the jail as well as all of my friends and family - were not so wrong. Maybe he's just a bad guy....

Ever since I was 13 years old, Ive had this fantasy about how he's not as bad as everyone thinks he is. He couldn't possibly be. Somewhere in there is a genuine guy who's only human. I loved him. But I should have left it a fantasy. Kept my childhood dreams of him as they were. Reality sux... I spent almost 30 years loving someone who never really existed anywhere but in my head. I never loved the guy who did all that shit to me. I loved the guy I thought the bad guy was a cover for. It's like Scooby Doo when they try to pull the mask off the villain and it's not a mask at all. They are exactly what everyone said they were. No mask. Just an actual monster. A bad guy....

I hope this is allowed, but does anybody know of any quality books on psychological warfare and manipulation? As I’ve been dealing with this very manipulative coworker and I wanna learn how to defend myself against it, I’m getting exhausted of it. I would really appreciate guys, I need desperate help as nobody believes me as they can’t see it.

I (21F) cannot tell anymore if my mom is manipulative or if I’m actually just a shitty daughter.
The best way I can describe our relationship is the mom and daughter in Lady Bird. We both love each other. A lot. We’re also both wrong sometimes, we know exactly how to piss each other off, and somehow every argument can turn into something way bigger than what it started as.

But as I’ve gotten older and become my own person, our relationship has gotten so much worse. We honestly fight more now than we did when I was 15.

My mom knows exactly how to hurt me. When we fight, she’ll call me an “evil bitch child” or bring up things I did years ago as proof that I’m apparently this horrible person.

Tonight was probably one of our worst fights in months.

My boyfriend and I have been having some issues lately, and my mom randomly said, “Well, you’re just with him because he’s hot and [professional sport he plays].” I’m purposely leaving out the sport because I don’t want anyone identifying him.

I responded, “No. I’ve dated people richer than him. That doesn’t matter to me.”

She immediately went, “Because we’re SO poor.”
We are not poor. At all. My parents bought their house in Southern California in cash, renovated it, and pay my college tuition. I also never called them poor.

So I said, “Literally nobody said you’re poor.”

And somehow that turned into her bringing up basically every bad thing I’ve ever done.
Normally when conversations get like this, I try to remove myself and say something like, “When you want to have an adult conversation, I’ll be in my room.” Tonight, for a variety of reasons, I could not be the bigger person.

And I want to be clear that I haven’t always handled our relationship perfectly either. Especially as a teenager. I’ve screamed at her. I’ve called her names. I’ve stormed off. I could be absolutely awful when I was 16 or 17, and I regret a lot of it.
But I also feel like I’m permanently being punished for the worst version of myself.

Our relationship especially changed once we developed very different political beliefs. She’s on the right and I’m on the left. Ever since then, it feels like she genuinely hates talking to me sometimes. If I disagree with her or try to have a difficult conversation, she says I’m being condescending or somehow twists what I’m saying into me basically telling her she “should die.”

Earlier TODAY, before this other fight even happened, we were arguing about her helping me move into my new college house. During the car ride she told me, “I’m gonna write a letter for when I die and it’s gonna say ‘fuck you’ and say how horrible of a daughter you are.”

That really fucked with me.

She also knows I struggle badly with OCD surrounding my face and hygiene. It’s something that already makes me incredibly anxious and self-conscious. During fights, she has brought it up and essentially told me I deserve to struggle with it because I’m an evil person.

That’s the part I’m having the hardest time rationalizing.

I understand relationships are a two-way street. I know I’m not some innocent angel who has never raised my voice or said something mean. I’m 21, I’ve made mistakes, and there are absolutely moments where I owe my mom an apology.

But I don’t know if the things she says to me are a normal consequence of two people with a complicated relationship, or if I’ve gotten so used to them that I don’t realize how excessive they are.
Because she’s still my mom. I love her so fucking much. I don’t want to cut her out of my life.
But whenever she talks to me like this, I swear I revert right back to being 17. Suddenly I’m angry, defensive and saying things I thought I had grown out of saying. Then afterward I feel horrible and wonder if her assessment of me is actually right.
I don’t want to go no-contact. I don’t even really want low-contact. I want a relationship with my mom where we can disagree or be angry with each other without trying to emotionally destroy each other.

But I have no idea how to get there, or if it’s even possible when only one person is trying.
Has anyone had a relationship like this with a parent and actually made it better? At what point does “we both have things to work on” become an excuse for someone saying genuinely cruel things to you?

Doesn't matter if you are the best person or the worst person in the world, every word you speak, expression you make, variation in tone, volume, even the art you create; its all manipulation making the human mind elicit a certain response aka manipulate a person to get an output. Therefore, everything manipulates us, and we manipulate everyone. No good or bad to it, its just the nature of human consciousness.

Do you believe otherwise? If so, prove me wrong.

Edit: For those saying manipulation is just influence misused, I appreciate it, but my initial meaning was the literal definition of manipulation, to change, move, etc. Not the definition used by psychologists to define the negative use of one's ability to influence others. I appreciate the responses and definitely see where you are coming from regardless.

For those who responded that are willing to answer. Do you believe yourselves above manipulation based on the definition your answer was for? Do you believe you're capable of it and avoid it, or what?

So his family berated him when he was younger for stealing. They stole from him. Had people bully him at work so he wouldn't step out of line and know how coordinated his reputation is with those surrounding him. It led him to choose my mom who was also abusive but the "only women who would marry him". He says there's still a lot of love between them. But he used to say and I watched my mom say she doesn't love him and this and that. Just always nasty to him. I commented as a kid they never show affection and she gave him the fakest kiss after. They just fight with each other mostly. The only time they agree is when my dad is quiet and let's her talk and he asks questions. Otherwise she just puts down his conversation topics. I just feel if you are saying your wife always harassed you when we were kids, she and others got him to loose a job if he spent too much time in the bathroom. He now thinks it's fun to hurt other rule breakers. Is that not stockholm syndrome? I know half of you will say he stepped into the light from the dark side but it sounds like he didn't shed his immaturity right and it pokes through in definat ways because he wants to stick up for himself against a "bitchy woman" (she nags him a lot for not working hard enough but she doesn't do anything beyond planting in her garden. She makes him do.mist the hardgrunt work while she picks flowers). Is that normal? Is that mature? Bullying someone you don't like? Making them see your way and refusing to see others ways? I don't think they're a healthy couple but most would say they're dysfunctional and what can you do if you can't enforce something you have to live with whatever they are you so you become what they are.so they'll change. But being lazy sometimes is justified. My dad does.work.hard .I don't see why she has to nag him so much when she isnt a harder worker unless you pay her. Thoughts?