r/Stoicism

I'm 26M and something happened tonight that I can't stop thinking about. I want completely honest opinions, even if you think I handled it badly. I'm not looking for people to tell me "you did nothing wrong" just to make me feel better.

I'm seeing this girl. We're not in a serious relationship and I've only known her for a relatively short time. Tonight we were sitting outside her apartment building talking for a few hours. Her 20-year-old younger sister and 12-year-old younger brother were also outside, around 20 meters away from us.

At some point, three guys came over and started hitting her younger sister.

The girl I was with and I immediately started walking towards her. I was thinking about getting involved, but there were three guys and I was alone. I didn't know who they were, whether they were drunk, whether any of them had a weapon, etc. So I turned around to get my phone and call emergency services.

The girl I was with kept walking towards her sister and got to the entrance of the building. I followed her and called emergency services. The operator kept asking me questions like who was attacking her, why they were attacking her, etc. I honestly didn't know any of that. I just knew I had seen three guys hitting a girl. Eventually the girl got inside the building, so I told the operator that she was safe inside and ended the call.

The guys then started coming toward me and yelling things like "Who the fuck are you?" and "Come here, motherfucker." I went inside the building and shut the door.

A few minutes later, everyone was together in the entrance: the girl, her sister, their brother, grandmother, etc.

The grandmother, for whatever reason, decided to come out with a broom and threaten the guys that she would call the police. One of the guys walked past her, the other two stayed at the open door.

Then the weirdest part started.

The one that walked past everyone went straight to the girl I was with, put his hand on her shoulder and asked if she was okay. She didn't seem particularly scared of him and didn't push him away. As she nodded, the grandma started screaming to the guy that she didn't want anything to do with him anymore or something alongside those lines. He was holding himself and i could see it. I grabbed his arm, told him to calm down as lashing towards the grandma wasn't a good idea. As soon as i finished that, the other two guys pulled me out of the block by the arm. One of them was giving me a handshake, the other one was walking very close behind him.

They started asking what my "F*cking deal was. Who did I think i was, that they heard i acted like a big shot around here". That was the first time I've ever been in that area.

I basically told him:

"Look, I have nothing to do with this. I'm with her sister. I just came here to see her. I'm not involved in whatever is going on."

He initially seemed aggressive, but after talking for a few minutes, he completely changed his attitude. He started telling me I was cool and that I had nothing to do with their problems.

At one point, all three guys were basically being friendly toward me. Two of them even kissed my hand several times, which was probably the weirdest thing I've ever experienced. Imagine Marlon Brando from the Godfather. That's the type of "kiss" I received. They had been drinking, so I assume that had something to do with it.

One of them told me that he had slept with both sisters multiple times and basically warned me not to get involved with them seriously. Not in a threatening way. More like "You're cool, bro, don't get yourself into this mess." The girl I was with later told me that this particular guy was "a mistake from her past," so at least that part of his story seems to check out.

At some point I started walking toward my car to leave. One of them called after me:

"Bro, come back for a little bit. We don't want to run after you, we just want to talk."

And I actually went back.

This is one of the parts I'm questioning the most. I could have just kept walking. I knew I could get to my car before they caught me. But I was curious about what they wanted, so I went back and talked to them.

Everything ended peacefully. Nobody touched me and I left completely unharmed.

But throughout basically the entire situation my heart was racing like crazy. During the actual confrontation I didn't really notice it, but once I was walking away from the situation, my hands started shaking. Even 15-20 minutes later I was still somewhat shaky.

And that's what bothered me the most.

I don't consider myself a violent person. I don't start fights and I have absolutely no interest in proving myself by fighting random people. But I also don't feel physically competent at all, and this situation made that very obvious to me.

I keep thinking: what happens if something like this happens again, but it's someone I actually love? What if it's my future wife or child? Would I be able to act?

I didn't want to fight three guys. I know that's stupid. I just wanted to know whether my reaction was reasonable or whether I psychologically folded the moment I saw three people.

For context, I've actually had a pretty bad experience with something similar in the past.

About six years ago, when I was 20, I had a girlfriend who lived in another city about 50 km away. She had a friend who was about 15 years older than us. He was gay and had a big group of male friends.

One night my girlfriend wanted us to go to his house, have some drinks and sleep there. Every part of me was telling me not to go. I didn't want to be there at all. I kept refusing, but she eventually convinced me because she was my first girlfriend.

We went there. There were around 10 guys there. I wasn't drinking and wasn't causing any problems, but some of them were watching me and I could tell the atmosphere was strange.

Around 1 AM I told my girlfriend we should leave. She didn't want to, so eventually we started walking.

As I was putting my shoes on, one of the guys came into the hallway and started calling me a "big shot" and saying he was going to beat my ass. I pushed him away twice because he was getting in my face, but I didn't punch him. I told him to back off because I wasn't interested in fighting.

We left.

About five minutes later, two guys followed us. One was around 40 kg heavier than me and the other was significantly taller.

They knocked me to the ground and kicked me for probably around a minute. I couldn't really fight back because I was on the ground. I tried to flag down a taxi but it didn't stop.

Eventually I made it back to my girlfriend's house.

Then around 4 AM, her mother woke us up screaming that my car was on fire.

Someone had poured gasoline next to my car and set it on fire. Luckily the car itself wasn't burned, but it was clearly meant as a warning.

That experience taught me to trust my instincts. Ever since then, I've avoided situations where something in my head tells me "don't fucking go there."

Which is why tonight was so strange to me.

The moment I saw three guys attacking the girl, my instinct was basically "get the phone and call for help." I didn't want to jump into a 1v3 against unknown, possibly drunk men.

I still feel conflicted about that.

Part of me thinks I handled it correctly because I avoided escalating a potentially dangerous situation, got emergency services involved and ultimately got everyone out safely.

Another part of me thinks I'm psychologically weak because my first instinct wasn't to physically intervene.

I also felt like the girl I was with might have been disappointed in me. She apologized to me several times afterward, and she asked me to stay in contact while I was leaving for the UK soon. I told her I didn't want her waiting for me because I don't want to promise her a relationship I can't give her.

I'm not interested in getting into a serious relationship with her. I like her and she's attractive, but I don't want to become involved in whatever is going on around her family.

So my questions are:

Did I actually handle tonight reasonably, or did I act like a coward?

Was going back when those three guys called me over a stupid decision?

Is the shaking/adrenaline response normal, or does it say something about my ability to handle danger?

And most importantly, if I genuinely want to become more physically and psychologically capable of protecting myself and people close to me, what would you recommend?

I'm planning to start boxing when I move to the UK. I don't want to become some guy looking for fights. I just want to be competent enough that if violence becomes unavoidable, I don't completely freeze.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing both sides. If you think I handled it well, tell me why. If you think I was a coward, tell me why. Just don't sugarcoat it.

Im 19, I live with my girlfriend who I have been with for around 5 years. We have decided to split and she is moving out. We're on amazing terms and talk quite a bit. We're best friends. Here's my issue:

Toward the end of the relationship, I found myself developing feelings for a coworker who I found out was actually quite a bit younger than me. She's almost 17, I'm almost 20. I found myself seriously having a crush, and I felt deeply ashamed. I also have severe OCD, so it didn't help me obsess over if I was a creep. Anyway, I opened up to my gf/ex about this because it was weighing on me, and I wanted to be completely honest. She also started to catch on with me staying later at work or taking extra shifts. I am seriously unhappy with myself. Anyway, I decided I wasn't going to act or pursue this because it simply is inappropriate. To my knowledge, and show me if I'm wrong, please. Is that the feelings are out of control, but how I react and act is. I've decided not to act on it. My girlfriend went to her friends and told them, "dude, my boyfriend is hitting on a 15 year old girl." Which, I can't blame her. I understand that to her this feels shitty and she wants to complain to her friends. But her bestfriends boyfriends are my friends. One of them isn't responding to me when I asked to hangout. I assume this is why. And I know it'll get around. I'm ashamed, embarrassed, and I didn't really act on it. So I am worried everyone will get a twisted story and it'll ruin me and how people view me. I already feel incredibly lonely. I have no friends, really beside the 2 that are about to hear this. And I barely see them. I work 2 jobs, and I'm losing my gf. On top of that, thousands of dollars of bills to pay to stay in the apartment, vehicles, etc. I'm really broken right now and need some advice.

I'm curious to understand whether people-pleasing corresponds with a concept in stoicism. I think of Stoicism as being open to being wrong. This happens to overlap with some beliefs I had before starting to study Stoicism. If I understand it right, the idea is that I could be wrong about anything and therefore should keep an open mind to people even if I think they may be terribly wrong.

I have had a tendency in the past to be reluctant to bring up differences in opinion. I'm not perfect about this and can even be quite vocal about disagreeing with someone or even say I think they're doing something terribly wrong, usually only in the case that I know them very well.

I'm guessing that the idea that Stoicism means something like being passive may be part of the problem here. When you disagree with someone and you think it is say not preferred and you think that someone is acting unjustly towards you or others, is it best to keep that to yourself and ponder it for a while or indefinitely? Or is it better to bring it up and discuss it? I'm thinking that the latter may actually be better though I have tended to mostly keep these things to myself because I prefer to think about them on my own. I think I prefer to avoid conflict mostly, but occasionally get into it and even enjoy it.

Is there anything wrong with enjoying an argument sometimes? At least if it's mutually enjoyable and you both are learning from it?

Hello all!

I’m looking at gauging the interest of those local to the San Antonio area to the prospect of establishing a weekly meeting for those interested in Stoicism or who regularly practice the philosophy. The main emphasis would be to establishing a core community which in turn would facilitate the growing need for third spaces (especially for those of us who have children) while also engaging in textual studies of the primary Stoic sources including some of the most well known: Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, Musonius Rufus, and so forth.

In short, for those of us who live busy lives but take philosophy very serious, this could be an outlet to meet, discuss/ ask questions, and, ultimately, find community.

Feel free to reach out either here or via DM.

I (M29) met my wife 5 years ago, and we were in the most perfect relationships, where each day we were saying 'love you', showing affection (rather showering) to each other and being each other's centers of the universe, living these 5 years almost without arguments (only one day unserious ones which became less and less rare each year because we both grew emotionally so much). I adored her so much, and always felt that she did me too, even though in the beginning she physically was not entirely my type, but our personalities and values matched so much, I decided to love her very much (I am proponent of the view that you can choose to love, and to how strongly love). We married each other after one year of meeting, and moved to another country together after another year. I always was afraid to lose her to random things (like plane or car crush), and was sure that I do everything to bring her back (I am researcher and even though I am biologist, I was pretty sure that I will switch to the physics and try to decipher the universe rules to reverse time or something like that or die trying and in denial of the loss). Even though I said that I love her so much, even in that love I was surprised that I was still attracted to other women, but I never ever acted on those attractions, because I always imagined how I will break her heart, ruin our perfect life and future, and will never be able to forgive myself and live in peace (the last one I got from reading Plato's Republic and how Reason should always govern your desires, otherwise you will lose your harmony and suffer from it forever). I want to be stoic, but I am also non-religious, and being existentialist I just made our love my meaning and purpose, just cultivating our love was my primary goal and vision for my future, while advancing my career or businesses and hobbies were just to make life additionally interesting and supporting my main purpose, because what else could be more meaningful than love, because it felt like the only thing eternal. Even though due to stoicism I am not in trembling fear of death now, I put my goal to research aging and uploading intelligence to be with her forever if possible (not necesarily, but worth trying). Recently, she got back from trip and from the day one I felt that something is wrong, because even though we did not see each other few days, she did not show or say that she missed me (usually, even after 2-3 hours of not seeing she runs to me and hugs and tells me how she missed me). She did not show any affection but only some slight aggression or irritation or indifference for 10 days straight after that. She actively avoided me, staying late at work, not going to lunches with me (we ate lunch together almost everyday), and in the evenings just sitting in her phone. I started to suspect more and more, that something happened, and went through all the phases of loss, well it was very tough, I cried alone in my home everyday for these last 7 days because I was losing her and my every attempt in gaining her back being dismissed. I grieved my love a lot all these days. Yesterday I came to the acceptance (I still grieve as flashbacks sometimes appear of her cheerfully running towards me after the work, or her silly laugh). But I just imagined my future with and without her in detail and just thought that i can do both, i am not going to give up on my life. So I very calmly asked her about everything, about her behaviour, whether she stopped loving me etc. She said that I am dramatizing stuff and she is just tired. I just told her that I deserve the truth, she just said she is very stressed right now and needs space. I accepted that, but said that she can share anytime anything, I will be able to handle anything (she knows I admire stoics, and she herself also wants to be stoic, she reads Meditations and Letters to Lucilius). Today, she asked me if we want to talk. She could not look into my eyes and just confessed everything. She got very drunk and cheated on me as I expected already. I said I forgive her and don't judge or blame, I knew she probably guilt-tripping herself enough all these days. Well, she understandably is mess right now, because she is suffering of her own choices, while I am really just grieving something that I lost due to things out of my control. So I get her and forgave her. It is the first blow, and "finally" I can apply stoicism in my life, because before that my life was just long thread of uninterruped happiness, so I really didn't need to apply it. I am providing as much help to her to regain her desire to live and continue her journey stoically. Part of me still is very surprised how one could give up all of this for a few moments of desires, but I will not have answer to that, so I just accepted that. Now, my new page in life starts today, I already decided that I will do sports much often, and really study philosophy (I am really in Aristotle's ethics right now) and math, and also have 3 side projects on innovating science. The problem is, whole meaning of life is gone, and I am just planning to fill my life with interesting but not as much existentially fulfilling things. I am adopting stoicism, but I am lost what I am being stoic for, and even though I continue to be without knowing, but I was much happier when I knew what was it for. Thanks for taking your time to read all of this, I really appreciate it (I really did not talk toanyone about that, I don't want her to face backlash for actions, she herself is the biggest backlash right now)

Some time ago, I started an exercise of viewing life through three lenses, reflecting upon them whenever possible:

Memento vivere — on the importance of learning how to live, of understanding and accepting that life is fleeting, and that this impermanence grants us the opportunity to experiment, make mistakes, and learn. That loving the journey is the way to stay in the flow, to live each day understanding and accepting the weight of my decisions, and to be at peace with their consequences.

Memento amare — on living life with love: love for my wife, love for my friends and peers, love for my parents, and above all, love for myself—for my flaws even more than for my virtues. Love for my consciousness, which I call my "co-pilot," who stays with me through good days and bad, and who is, in the first and final instance, my eternal inner companion.

Memento mori — learning to respect and be grateful for the chance to be let go, to depart, and to finish what I started. Being grateful for the end and for death itself—for the unique gift of allowing me to experience the world in stages, for giving me a finite time of delight, for granting me the gift of creating meaning, and, in the end, thanking its arrival and departing hand-in-hand, out of respect for having waited patiently for me until that singular moment.

And finally, being grateful for the opportunity to understand and experience these mementos.

Hi everyone today I finished reading meditations. It was the first philosophy book I’ve read and this is all the lessons I have learned:

1. You cannot control outside events so don’t mind them
2. One can only control himself
   3)Life has an end therefore don’t be the slave of pain, anger, fear, pleasure, sadness or other people’s thoughts
   4)Life’s goal is to reach your potential and fulfill your duty in the best way possible
   5)Things like death, pain, sickness, fate and sadness are a part of nature therefore take place in every people’s life without caring whether the person is good or bad so do not care, fear or complain from them.
   6)Both good and bad things pass.

My questions is to you is what are the other lessons I didn’t got and now how should/can I implement these lessons to my life

Ive read Meditations, the Enchiridion and the Letters to Lucilius. Are there any more modern books you would recommend? What about fiction?

I know Seneca did, I wonder what Marcus' view was

Hi, I’ve been around two weeks dealing with insomnia. Normally I spend a lot of time falling asleep, and I tend to unwittingly wake up very early with an intense feeling of anxiety and fear of not being able to have a good rest. I’ve been having tons of intrusive thoughts of doing very problematic stuff, which makes my anxiety much worse. When this happens I try to remain calm and be aware that those thoughts are simply the result of my extremely tired body, and sometimes I manage to do it but usually the feeling don’t get any better. I’ve tried a lot of medicines for insomnia, but they don’t help me at all.
I’ve noticed a lot of changes since my insomnia started, I feel much morre irritable, obviously tired, anxious, depresed and I do not feel at all motivated to keep going on.

My question is: from a stoic perspective, how should I deal with this intrusive thoughts and negative feelings? I know in theory that they are phantasias coming from sleep deprivation, but in practice I don’t know how to properly detach myself from them, and I have too much fear of them taking control of me.

Is there a character in a show that embodies stoicism really well? I think of Itachi in Naruto, he’s calm and calculated. He’s thinking ahead and very much is a principles over feelings type of character. Although he clearly does have feelings, he’s able to make logical decisions for the betterment of others. That’s also I wanna say, I don’t wanna spoil anything for anyone. But I’d like to know of any show characters that you feel embody stocism well.

I’m a 19 yr old girl and has always been a daddy’s girl since I was small even though he was always in and out of my life. About 4 years ago he almost completely vanished and would only send messages here and there after he was injured from his job and was out of work for a while, then he would come around telling me how he would receive a settlement check in the millions for his injury (his leg was broke almost in half and he had to receive surgery and months of physical therapy). He’d tell me all his plans and how he would get me an apartment and pay for my college, basically selling me dreams. After about a year of back and forth with his lawyers and his old job he received a check for 250k and he bought me a car paid in full but kept the title in his name which my mom wasn’t pleased by because she knew him better than me and knew the things he’d do. After he bought me the car he put a tracker in it and tracked my every location and would be mad if i wasn’t at home even at 11pm (i’m 19 at this time). He would buy me things with the money he got but would always hold it over my head but i was ok with just having my dad in my life who was doing things for me after being completely absent for the most important years of my life. Recently I was in a crash that could have been fatal but I came out of it fine except with some bruises and scratches (I was hit while on the highway and my car flipped twice). So afterwards I was mostly hurt over losing my car because it was my transportation to my job and college was coming up so i knew id struggle without it, but my dad was just telling me to be thankful I was alive and would ignore any conversation about using the insurance payout to get me a car. Recently I realized he’d been lying about details of the claim and when i tried to look up any progress myself he changed the password to the insurance account and told me i need to stop being nosey and to be patient. Yesterday i called the insurance myself to ask about any updates on the case and was told that a payout check was sent around a week after the crash and was already cashed out. So this entire time while I have been struggling to make it to work and figuring out my situation for college my dad has been living off my insurance payout (forgot to mention he spent the 250k check in 5 months). He is currently living with his brother and doesn’t have a car or anything else even after receiving that large check. I haven’t spoken to him about finding out and I have no idea what to even say about it, I feel betrayed and there’s nothing I can do because even though he gifted the car for me and has never used it, he made sure to put everything in his name.

I find myself regularly caught between two seemingly contradictory ways of looking at loneliness, friendship, and relationships. I genuinely can't decide which one is closer to the truth.

Scenario 1: Maybe we are looking for something that another person cannot give us.

I see so many posts in other subreddits from people desperately looking for friends, partners, or someone who can make them feel less lonely. But why do we assume another person can fill an emptiness that perhaps comes from the nature of wanting itself? Schopenhauer would say that desire continually recreates dissatisfaction, while Kabir's poetry repeatedly points toward the absurdity of searching outside for what we are looking for within. Maybe modern life has convinced us that our unhappiness is primarily a social deficit, that we need more friends, more intimacy, more connection although when the deeper problem is that we spend our lives doing work we don't care about, consuming things we don't need, and lacking anything meaningful enough to live and die for. Perhaps we aren't lonely because we lack people; perhaps we are lonely because we lack a life that feels worth inhabiting.

And yet, somehow, I keep coming back to the opposite thought.

Scenario 2: Maybe I'm intellectualizing my way out of something I actually need to experience.

I still have this very ordinary urge to have friends, to have people beside me while I go through life. Maybe I can't understand the futility or limitations of relationships without actually experiencing them. You can't understand a forest entirely by standing outside it and convincing yourself that you already know what's inside. And being completely free isn't necessarily the same as being fulfilled. Having nobody to answer to gives you freedom, but freedom without anything meaningful to devote yourself to can become its own kind of emptiness. Perhaps friends don't complete us, but they can make difficult things easier to bear; they can give us courage, companionship, perspective, and a reason to keep walking when the road gets difficult. Maybe I don't need someone to fill the emptiness in me, I just want someone to walk through the forest with me.

So I'm stuck between these two ideas:

Do we suffer because we are desperately looking for other people to complete something that cannot be completed from the outside?

Or do we sometimes use that philosophy as an excuse to avoid the vulnerability, compromise, and uncertainty of actually letting people into our lives

Someone broke into my car and stole a bunch of my belongings and I’m honestly struggling to process it. I can barely sleep.

They took my iPad, my pen, my AirPods, my entire handbag, wallet and bank cards, glasses, clothes, stationery, calculators I need for school, rings and other personal belongings. The list goes on.
I’m a student, so a lot of these things are genuinely part of my livelihood and how I’m able to sustain myself.

I know everything is replaceable, but it’s not like I can just go into a store tomorrow and replace everything. A lot of these things were accumulated over years, or were gifts, and some of them have sentimental value.
It’s such a horrible feeling having so many of your everyday belongings suddenly just… gone. I keep thinking about everything I need to replace, how much it’s going to cost, and where I’m even supposed to start. It’s honestly keeping me awake.

Edit: I know I should be grateful that at least nothing happened to me and that I’m physically okay, and I genuinely am. I think I’m just struggling with the reality of having to rebuild so much of what I had. It’s frustrating and overwhelming.
For anyone who has experienced something similar, how did you approach the next steps and rebuilding everything? I’d really appreciate any advice, especially from other students who have had something like this happen.

There is a situation I am dealing with right now that is exposing my anxiety and inability to let go of something that is not as important as I seem to think it is.

It is a work situation where a person is quite toxic, bad mouthing people, but in general harmless. I don’t dislike them but they are not my kind of person, make me feel uncomfortable, I dont think I fear them, but I don’t want to get in that argument space with them by saying what I think.

I keep it pleasant but feel two faced about this as I get quite irate with my boss around this person. My boss knows they are a problem but is more forgiving.

To cut a long story story short. I can’t seem to let it go and keep going on at my boss and thinking about this at home, analysing it literally all the time, how I can get this person out. But a part of me doesn’t care, I knows it’s ridiculous to put this much energy into it

I’m not a young guy either, I feel embarrassed at my lack of control around it. How can I let go and stop ruminating on it?

I've been studying Stoicism for a while now and I quite like it, but having OCD makes it difficult for me to manage uncertainty. I understand that if there's something I can't change, I shouldn't stress about it, but how do you know when you've reached that point? I always overthink everything in case I'm "forgetting" something, and I have behaviors that exhaust my mind. This happens to me especially with important matters; it's as if I can't be as calm as I should be until everything is resolved. Obviously, Stoicism isn't a magic spell that helps you eliminate negative emotions, but at the very least it should help me control them better. The problem is that I find it quite difficult because of my OCD.

People who suffer the same thing, how have you been more stoic?

​"Physical death isn't the most painful thing in this life... it is living an unfinished one.

​It is the weight of unfulfilled dreams.

It is being haunted by memories of the people you once had.

It is watching your home break apart, piece by piece.

It is feeling entirely alone while sitting in your own living room.

​In our endless effort to make everyone else happy, we forget how to live our own lives. We lose our own joy.

​That isn't just sadness—that is the slowest, most painful kind of death."

- Puneet SS

​

I’ve noticed a pattern in myself, and honestly, I don’t know how to break it.

Whenever I meet someone and we become close, I get very attached. I start thinking about them a lot, and their presence becomes emotionally important to me.

Then, sooner or later, we have a fight or something goes wrong. Sometimes the other person doesn’t accept their mistake, and sometimes I probably make mistakes too.

When the friendship or relationship ends, I still keep going back to that person.

The people around me have even told me that I’m being immature because I keep going back after things have already ended. Maybe they’re right, but I don’t think I’m doing it because I don’t understand that it’s over.

Sometimes I just miss the feeling I had when that person was in my life.

I’m not always going back because I want the person back. Sometimes I’m going back because I’m addicted to the feeling of being connected to them.

I really want to understand why I do this and, more importantly, how to stop.

How do you learn to let go of someone without repeatedly going back just because you miss the feeling?

Has anyone else experienced something similar?

I have been thinking about this recently and did some reading on the topic. I came across an interesting idea.

Many religions did not start as organised religions. They started as teachings, philosophies, or ways of life and gradually developed into larger religious traditions.

For example, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam all developed communities, institutions, rituals, and traditions around their original teachings.

So I tried to list some common characteristics of religion:

• Way of life
• Guide to the meaning and purpose of life
• Foundational texts
• Foundational figures
• Daily practices and rituals
• Expansion through teaching and influence
• Community
• Moral system
• Institutions such as temples, churches, and monasteries
• Strong collective identity

Interestingly, Stoicism already seems to have around 6 out of these 10 characteristics.

It has a philosophy of life, ideas about meaning and purpose, foundational texts and figures, daily practices, a growing community, and a clear moral framework.

What it doesn't really have yet are things like religious institutions, sacred rituals, and a strong collective identity.

This made me wonder:

If a philosophy develops a large and growing community, shared practices, a strong identity, and eventually its own institutions, at what point does it become a religion?

Could Stoicism eventually develop in that direction?

Or will it always remain a philosophy and a way of life rather than becoming a religion?

What do you think?